1. #17681
    I like how people are getting into the topic of Free Will and Determinism. But completely missing the whole point of the whole Free Will / Determinism is why the Warcraft Universe isn't perfect.

    Which faction of the Universe is the only one that produce non Free Willed beings? The Pantheon of Orders' minions. We could explore this more deepy if people want, obviously there are some other forces that seem to be questionable like the Swarm like Primal version of Life do they have Free Will or are they just parasitically expanding until they end up murdered by evolution of other species which are a byproduct of Life and has free will?

    Every other faction leads to free will beings and the most important and biggest clue to this whole thing is the Old Gods of Azeroth and Yogg-Sarons' epithet of being the God of Death when obviously he is not and obviously he was birthed from the Void and they see Death as the ultimate enemy. Which also hinted at the whole Death -> Azeroth thingiemajig upon his demise.

    I don't think everything is Machines or Code. I do think that the reason for why the Universe is fucked has very much to do with the Territory Fighting which seemingly stems from Free Will being imposed on everything and again the only reason this happened is most likely some Bigger God/Creator doing the Prometheus thing out of the goodness of their heart. But, it fucked up the entire universe and threw it into chaos mode.

    Unless, we go with the whole Simulation Theory and the Discord / Chaos (Whatever fucked the Universe up) was intentional for the Simulation. But again, derp.

    Even then, I don't know maybe the Free Will is just a red herring. There is probably Titanforged that goes against their programming and then you can ask if the malfunction is the Free Will bug in the matrix. But, again.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-01-08 at 10:04 PM.
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  2. #17682
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Yeah yeah yeah she defied them in 7.3 then failed to defy them in 7.3.5. Clearly its not a one-and-done sort of thing.

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    As long as we ignore everytime they revised the official website, or the devs reconned something.

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    So based on what we see in Zareth Mortis, is everything originally machine in origin & it's the old-gods's curse that made all flesh? Wouldn't that imply the Old Gods are the only reason free-will exists in this universe??
    The Official website and all that is written in it is Canon.

    So Canonically Alleria Windrunner is the first mortal in the history of the Cosmos to successfully defy the Shadows' whispers, as reported by Blizzard on their Official website.

  3. #17683
    As always Old Gods are not the only source of Free Will in the universe. Primal Life aka Life can lead to evolution of species that have free will as seen with Draenor.
    "The only thing you got in this world is what you can sell. and the funny thing is that you're a game developer, and you don't know that."
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  4. #17684
    "successfully"...... About that honey
    Harbinger of Chaos is coming back on May 6 2022//

  5. #17685
    Quote Originally Posted by HeraldofSargeras View Post
    "successfully"...... About that honey
    Neltharion with just A WHISPER from N'Zoth turned into a complete monster of destruction.

    Garrosh with a marginally moderate amount of Void energy was batshit insane and thought it was his destiny to rule Azeroth.

    Ner'zhul with an unknown but likely small amount of Void energy was crazy and tried to commit genocide on an entire people.

    Alleria with a massive amount of Void energy, coming from the essence of a Void Naaru that literally blasted and entered her body and merged with her, remains loyal to the Alliance, works to protect the Alliance citizens, and gave food and blankets to a bunch of refugees.

    It is stated by N'Zoth that "a whisper" was all he needed to corrupt Neltharion; meanwhile Alleria and the Ren'dorei hear COUNTLESS whispers all day long FROM THE VOID LORDS (N'Zoth's superiors), yet they remain good and loyal to the Alliance.

    I'd say it's obvious who defied the whispers and who succumbed to them here, even if Blizzard didn't already confirm that (as if it needed any confirming ).
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-01-08 at 10:24 PM.

  6. #17686
    OK but what happened at the Sunwell again?

  7. #17687
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    OK but what happened at the Sunwell again?
    I mean again, the reason for that event was due to Azerite a byproduct of that thing THAT EVERY FORCE IN THE UNIVERSE WANTS. (AZEROTH) Because, again the Vials stolen from the Well of Eternity which as it has been retconned in the Chronicles was the Lifeblood of Azeroth which as we've established with BFA is extremely powerful and can do miracle level shit.

    Obviously if there was other ways to restore Naaru from Void Naaru then Light would Dominate the Cycle for all eternity.

    The same goes for why Alleria did what she did, it's not like the Void needs to take control to get what they want out of that event. Which I mean they just randomly popped up so again.. Also her dialogue literally makes it pretty obvious she didn't know what would happen when she interacted with the well.

    Once she interacted with the Sunwell the portal opened and the Void invasion occured which again is due to the whole Azerite thing again. (Cause there's no other explaination and the void knows everything anyways.)

    Again if we now understand why the M'uru purification sequence and the Void Invasion at the Sunwell, it is just again a smaller scale example of the cosmic war for Azeroth and her powers.

    Fundamentally, I just think there's a lot of nuance to the whole Void Mind Control and Void Suggestion that lead to events. Either way, Alleria is a good walking pawn and we've already seen that established with what transpired at the Sunwell.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2022-01-09 at 12:40 AM.
    "The only thing you got in this world is what you can sell. and the funny thing is that you're a game developer, and you don't know that."
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  8. #17688
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    No.

    A Machine is a mechanical construct, consisting of a multitude of mechanical and/or electrical components that interact with one another.
    Wrong. A machine is a physical system with ordered structural and functional properties. Mechanical is not part of the definition, nor is electrical. They use power to apply forces and movement.

    In fact, a computer is not a machine. The clock is at least questionable, since some clocks did get used to drive other systems. The animated doll or rock however would be, the power in question would just be magical. They're essentially golems. A lever is also a machine, just an extremely simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExiHext View Post
    Yep, and all because I dared to express myself inaccurate (which I already admitted a page earlier). On the other hand I think everyone with half a braincell must have understood what I was trying to say.
    Doesn't matter, the titans were made by the First Ones...be it from robots, arcane energy or whatever. They are constructs...like they made constructs...and then those made vrykul and earthen.
    Actually, you expressed yourself perfectly accurately. Though we don't know yet if the First Ones had anything to do with the Titans. It seems rather likely, but there's no conclusive evidence.

  9. #17689
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Neltharion with just A WHISPER from N'Zoth turned into a complete monster of destruction.

    Garrosh with a marginally moderate amount of Void energy was batshit insane and thought it was his destiny to rule Azeroth.

    Ner'zhul with an unknown but likely small amount of Void energy was crazy and tried to commit genocide on an entire people.

    Alleria with a massive amount of Void energy, coming from the essence of a Void Naaru that literally blasted and entered her body and merged with her, remains loyal to the Alliance, works to protect the Alliance citizens, and gave food and blankets to a bunch of refugees.

    It is stated by N'Zoth that "a whisper" was all he needed to corrupt Neltharion; meanwhile Alleria and the Ren'dorei hear COUNTLESS whispers all day long FROM THE VOID LORDS (N'Zoth's superiors), yet they remain good and loyal to the Alliance.

    I'd say it's obvious who defied the whispers and who succumbed to them here, even if Blizzard didn't already confirm that (as if it needed any confirming ).
    I can almost guarantee the Light vs Void expansion is gonna come down to Alleria being balanced between the two because of her proximity to so much Light and the end will be "There must be balance between the two!"

    Well either that or she goes batshit after we do Siege of Stormwind to take out Light Fascist Turalyon and then who even knows.
    Last edited by Snorlax; 2022-01-09 at 01:18 AM.

  10. #17690
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    I can almost guarantee the Light vs Void expansion is gonna come down to Alleria being balanced between the two because of her proximity to so much Light and the end will be "There must be balance between the two!"

    Well either that or she goes batshit after we do Siege of Stormwind to take out Light Fascist Turalyon and then who even knows.
    That's why I don't think it's going to be Light vs Void. Turalyon & Alleria wouldn't fight each other. But a Light + Void expansion where either we have to fight them simultaneously or they actually team up against us, seems more likely, especially when it's now clear they're a bigger threat to us mortals than they are to each other.

    And when it comes to "balance" I think that's Calia's purpose. Seems if they do a Evil Light expansion, either Turalyon because of his wife, or Calia will be the light based person who struggles but ultimately stands against the light. And to this day Calia basically has no purpose. No one likes her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    Which faction of the Universe is the only one that produce non Free Willed beings? The Pantheon of Orders' minions. We could explore this more deepy if people want, obviously there are some other forces that seem to be questionable like the Swarm like Primal version of Life do they have Free Will or are they just parasitically expanding until they end up murdered by evolution of other species which are a byproduct of Life and has free will?
    Why do the Titans get credit for that? They didn't make the curse of flesh. They didn't make Trolls. They didn't make Tauren.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Garrosh with a marginally moderate amount of Void energy was batshit insane and thought it was his destiny to rule Azeroth.
    Garrosh was doing that before he did anything with the void. You're so off base here, but so is the official website. We can also point out the logic, if Alleria is so special to resist the whispers, she also gets a ton of other elves to embrace the void. Either Alleria somehow knew all high elves were able to resist the void, (no) or this is clearly an invasion of the body snatchers situation & void lord alleria showed up to the party with brain slugs for everyone.

    She's doing the void's will.

  11. #17691
    @Ersula

    I like Calia. She's definitely currently under developed but she has a lot more potential for actually interesting stories as a faction leader than most of them do.
    Last edited by Snorlax; 2022-01-09 at 02:08 AM.

  12. #17692
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    All hail the Void cause reasons.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

    Warrior-Magi

  13. #17693
    So getting 3 cinematics for the raid? @Marlamin

  14. #17694
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    @Ersula

    I like Calia. She's definitely currently under developed but she has a lot more potential for actually interesting stories as a faction leader than most of them do.
    And you believe this because...?
    Last edited by Verdugo; 2022-01-09 at 04:46 AM.

  15. #17695
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    We ought not to feed Varodoc until they learn how to post anything that is even marginally unrelated to the very limited selection of topics for which they have affinity. Perhaps with less engagement, we could see some actual gradual maturation and an increase in the complexity of their conversation pieces. Perhaps once some intellectual variety has been added to the discussion, we can see something of interest come out of Varodoc. Conversely, if we continue to oblige their nonsense, we will continue to hear more about the enigmatic, perfect, ineffable, infallible, magnificent, beautiful, etc. Ren'Dorei (never Void Elves—always "Ren'Dorei") and how much of a brilliant villain N'Zoth is for getting cucked off after making one quote about how a single whisper allowed him to corrupt Deathwing, steal the Emerald Nightmare from Yogg-Saron, secretly oversee the Fourth War, and will invariably be revealed to be responsible for every single global war which has ever happened on any planet and in real life etc. etc.
    Why are we talking down on them again? Thought that was against the rules? Anyway I should not worry about it lol

    Does suck Zovaal’s development time was instead used on fucking Sylvanas

  16. #17696
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    And you believe this because...?
    Because I do. I dont really feel a need to justify why I like or dislike a character in the same way I dont feel the need to justify thinking Shadowlands is a top tier expack and everyone is taking crazy pills.

  17. #17697
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Wrong. A machine is a physical system with ordered structural and functional properties. Mechanical is not part of the definition, nor is electrical. They use power to apply forces and movement.

    In fact, a computer is not a machine. The clock is at least questionable, since some clocks did get used to drive other systems. The animated doll or rock however would be, the power in question would just be magical. They're essentially golems. A lever is also a machine, just an extremely simple one.



    Actually, you expressed yourself perfectly accurately. Though we don't know yet if the First Ones had anything to do with the Titans. It seems rather likely, but there's no conclusive evidence.


    Regarding the computer - since you started linking wikipedia articles, go on and read the very first sentence of the "Computer" article in there.
    Last edited by UndedoKoleda; 2022-01-09 at 09:56 AM. Reason: Uncalled for

  18. #17698
    The Insane Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rootsbum View Post
    One thing im hoping for in 10.0 is new race/class options.
    Perhaps the NightElves take on shamanism to mend the earth after the war, or mechagnomes using technology to force the elementals to do their bidding.
    Or Calia freeing the forsaken from their own minds with holy energy so they can be paladin
    The rangari teaching stealth to draenei so they can be rogues ++

    And give thoose god damn zandalari warlock ! :P
    Id love to have blood elf druids. Or pandaren druids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandini View Post
    I really hope Blizzard will introduce new factions or revisit old factions, which are meant to stay relevant in the game for more than 1 addon.
    They can be goofy, they can be serious, but the game really needs more story/storyplots in the game grounded with the denizens of Azeroth and not just this overconvoluted story about the Old ones.

    For example splintered Earthen Ring factions, like Water Speaker, tide sages, Wind Caller etc.
    Blood Sail Bukaneers and their plots and different crews
    The dark raiders of Karazhan
    the lorewalkers, especially Lorewalker Cho
    I loved the story about the emerald witch Widow Greenpaw in Jade forest, more of that.
    Thros the blighted lands and the witches
    and so on...

    There are so many plotlines, that can be reintroduced, expanded and made into a good storyline.
    Even the Shadowlord denizens could be introduced to Azeroth. Brokers should be able to travel across the veil, so should the rest be. Nathrezim originate from the Shadowlands, but you can find them in Azeroth, on Drainor and Argus.
    The trolls can built new temples/ziggurates to pay homage to Bomsamdi/Voljin/Muhzela and call on the spirits of ardenweald and the wild gods.
    Same with the nightelves: why not use the connection in the emerald dream to cumunicate with the victims of teldrassils burning or the night fae as guides for druids.
    When the Maghar joined the horde, Botani, Saberon and Arakkoa went to Azeroth, I want to see them and the civilisation they built.
    Arakkoa zealots would also be a great addition for the Army of the light.
    They could even introduce us to Elune on Azeroth, you don´t need to go into the cosmos for that. (I really would love a Moonfall expansion for wow, with tidal waves early in the add on because of the moon falling and reworked zones where the moon crashed into Azeroth)
    Imagine a moon zone with different colored rocks and sand, cliffs and caves. A gorgeous space skybox. Double or triple the jump height. Slow fall when you are falling to stimulate lower gravity. Islands in the sky you need to jump from cliffs to get to. Jumping puzzles etc. It could be fantastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    I don't know how they fit 9.2.5 into the release schedule. 8.3 did not have a x.x.5 patch and somehow this expansion can fit it in. What a trainwreck on fire, I have no idea what is even going on anymore.

    At least they haven't filed for monetization changes, so I guess its' not going Seasonal but this blue post is a real oddity considering the timeframe they are working on. (When is 9.2.5 supposed to launch? lol? The same timeframe as when 10.0 Announcement and Alpha?)

    Unless, Bobby has shown mercy and or he's stepping down and letting someone else take the show since the coming 3 dead Quarters are going to not impress investors.
    Maybe 10.0 really is Q1 2023. Oof.

  19. #17699
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    Because I do. I dont really feel a need to justify why I like or dislike a character in the same way I dont feel the need to justify thinking Shadowlands is a top tier expack and everyone is taking crazy pills.
    So just a contrarian. Allright.

  20. #17700
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    And you believe this because...?
    I think Calia is interesting because she is 1.) closely related to Arthas 2.) is the rightful heir to Lordaeron and their people and 3.) is Undead as well, but in a different way.

    There is a lot of interesting storytelling potential with that. She is thrust into a role that is left vacant because Sylvanas is gone, with people who are going to be wary of her because her family is directly responsible for the Forsaken. She know what it's like to be Undead, but she never had the same hardships as the Forsaken did, but in the end, she wants the best for them, especially after the Forsaken were just used as pawns by the previous leader.

    People disliking her because she's "an Alliance character" (used to be an human) or "is a Mary Sue" (is not 100% war constantly) or "just doesn't feel right" (it's not a WC3/pre-MoP character) is peak WoW community though lmao.

    She certainly is better than Lilian Voss who everyone is rooting for. Her entire character is just "Hated being Undead".

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