Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Dracullus]

That is what Wadrak is saying tho. 9.3 (which probably wont happen but fun to speculate still) doesn't need to be a continuation of the SL story, but whatever.

Imo, with right patch schedule of course, X.3 should always be true filler, some completely side story that takes place somewhere in old Azeroth (any zone, not just EK/Kalimdor), with size similar to 8.3. This way story would conclude in X.2 and new expac reveal wouldn't spoil anything.

Ironically, you could make strong case that 8.3 was exactly that. But you know what I mean, something more like Mechagon than N'zoth.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Imo, with right patch schedule of course, X.3 should always be true filler, some completely side story that takes place somewhere in old Azeroth (any zone, not just EK/Kalimdor), with size similar to 8.3. This way story would conclude in X.2 and new expac reveal wouldn't spoil anything.

Ironically, you could make strong case that 8.3 was exactly that. But you know what I mean, something more like Mechagon than N'zoth.

No, there should of been a 9.3 but I digress.

[Wadrak]

I elaborated a bit on this earlier, but you're right. The thing is, evidence suggests the "detour patch" (as I was calling it) was scrapped this expansion (and would have been the original 9.1 or 9.2, with the current 9.2 being 9.3). It's the easiest thing to sacrifice when delays and internal issues strain the schedule as much as Shadowlands.

Actually you may be right I thought about this as well, that basically the current 9.2 was supposed to be 9.3. And something else was supposed to be between.

Also im saying that because I was watching certain very popular streamer on twitch few days ago, and he was also rather negatively surprised watching 9.2 preview video which hints its the last patch.
Surprised there will be no 9.3.

[Ersula]

Honestly, I want them to add in the Endless fun mode from Beta in 9.2.5 or whatever patch. Make it give nothing or give catchup currency/BoA tokens based on floor you complete or cosmetic rewards, honestly I'd probably play 20sih hours of it over multiple classes just for the fun aspect of the builds. The 18 layers of Twisting corridors already make it pretty fun by the end. Make it harder scaling and endless and it would be fun.

Torghast could have been fun with more development, but we're already getting "Torghast is now completely optional" and they only do this when they've completely given up on something.

[Jokubas]

Imo, with right patch schedule of course, X.3 should always be true filler, some completely side story that takes place somewhere in old Azeroth (any zone, not just EK/Kalimdor), with size similar to 8.3. This way story would conclude in X.2 and new expac reveal wouldn't spoil anything.

I was going to disagree at first because it makes it sound like the expansion culminates in something unrelated, but then I realized I actually agree completely, although I might even take it a bit further.

I have been told FFXIV is similar, but one thing I like about GW2 is that when you buy an expansion you get a story with a definitive conclusion. The patch content is used primarily to bridge between expansions and sometimes cover other things.

World of Warcraft's method of just being almost perpetually serial is certainly a popular storytelling method these days, but it's one that I've gotten completely and utterly burned out of universally. When everything is buildup and nothing is payoff, and when what "payoff" there is gets immediately overshadowed by a bigger twist or sequel hook, you never get to appreciate it. It's like reading the beginning of all of the Sherlock Holmes stories in a row and never reading their endings.

[Ersula]

Actually you may be right I thought about this as well, that basically the current 9.2 was supposed to be 9.3. And something else was supposed to be between.

This is what I was saying. Battle for Ardenweald was likely planned to be a whole raid instead of a scenario. The Elune story stuff would have gone here rather than being shoved into the same patch as all the Sanctum/Korthia stuff.

[Shadochi]

I elaborated a bit on this earlier, but you're right. The thing is, evidence suggests the "detour patch" (as I was calling it) was scrapped this expansion (and would have been the original 9.1 or 9.2, with the current 9.2 being 9.3). It's the easiest thing to sacrifice when delays and internal issues strain the schedule as much as Shadowlands.

There was someone on 4chan or the forums after they announced 9.2 saying how the original plan was to have 3 patches but due to delays it got merged into 2.
9.1 was supposed to be what we got minus Korthia and Tazavesh I believe, following what we usually got in .1 patches (SoD, Maw endgame zone update with assaults and the additional area and part of the 9.1 campaign). That is why it seems so fast paced that in 9.1 we found out about sigils, lost them and crafted new one. Apparently it was supposed to end with us capturing Sylvanas. If you look at the campaign nothing really requires Korthia. We do get the Necro Sigil from there but that could've been just hidden in a different place.

9.2 was supposed to be Korthia (but actual Korthia with more of the city area, as it was pushed sooner they couldn't finish it so we barely got a small area of the city), Tazavesh dungeon and a Broker themed raid with Anduin as the final boss, and IIRC the story was to be about us finding a way into Zereth Mortis, finding out about it or looking for a way to recraft the Sigils with the help of info from Brokers to follow the jailer (not sure which of those 3).

And then 9.3 is what we get except of course without Anduin and whichever other bosses would be in the 9.2 raid.

But because of already delayed and pushed back stuff they had to coalesce this into 2 patches leaving out the variety patch and a strangely placed 9.1 campaign. I kinda believe this to be true since when they announced 9.1 we didn't get to see any of Korthia meaning they were probably early in development when announcing it (which is strange to announce a patch when you can't showcase a big part of it) and the story pacing makes sense then.

- - - Updated - - -

In the end, the same that happened to BFA and WoD also happens to Shadowlands. The end will not be very spectular, as the players already left the game in droves. So why should blizzard put any additional effort into this expac?

We saw it with N'Zoth and we saw it with the lame end of WoD, which was as spectacular as another return of Onyxia.

Do not get your hopes up for the next expac, as nothing the devs do will change. They repeat the same lies with "player agenda", they just replace their borrowed power systems with new ones, renaming and relabeling them, bringing nothing new but just continue with their bad attitudes and focus on what they like most and not the players.

Huh, BfA? I would say that the Saurfang vs Sylvanas cinematic was a perfect culmination to what the 8.0 and 8.1 stories were pointing. The other storyline started in 8.1.5 mostly but was hardly the culmination of the whole expansion.
Also while sure the Nzoth cinematic was shit, BfA was still a much better story expansion than WoD.

[Wadrak]

This is what I was saying. Battle for Ardenweald was likely planned to be a whole raid instead of a scenario. The Elune story stuff would have gone here rather than being shoved into the same patch as all the Sanctum/Korthia stuff.

Could be that, well I also thought for some time there will be something in The Bastion against those Black Kyrians.

Because Kyrians are basically like angels, and characters like archangels are suppose to be very powerful.

And very powerful being make good raid bosses.

Also I really like that zone and also the dungeon Spires of Ascention. Basically it would be like that but bigger.

But atleast the Zereth Mortis looks bit similar to The Bastion, atleast the Sepulcher raid does, so there may be similar bosses like powerful Kyrians inside.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I was going to disagree at first because it makes it sound like the expansion culminates in something unrelated, but then I realized I actually agree completely, although I might even take it a bit further.

I have been told FFXIV is similar, but one thing I like about GW2 is that when you buy an expansion you get a story with a definitive conclusion. The patch content is used primarily to bridge between expansions and sometimes cover other things.

World of Warcraft's method of just being almost perpetually serial is certainly a popular storytelling method these days, but it's one that I've gotten completely and utterly burned out of universally. When everything is buildup and nothing is payoff, and when what "payoff" there is gets immediately overshadowed by a bigger twist or sequel hook, you never get to appreciate it. It's like reading the beginning of all of the Sherlock Holmes stories in a row and never reading their endings.

GWII patches are smaller though and I like the amount of content each major content patch brings. When we get one less major content patch I feel the expansion is lesser for it.

[damonskye]

No, sorry, beside a few cinematics the end of BFA was really bad.

Somewhere on YouTube, I remember seeing that "end of N'Zoth" cinematic set to the music over the tower's fall at the end of "Return of the King," and it was hilarious how it matched up almost perfectly. Hilarious, and yet so sad at the same time.

[Shadochi]

Only because it was better than WoD does not mean it was good. The end of N'Zoth and the whole implementation of the Black Empire was a joke compared what could have been done. Instead of implementing the Black Empire as a questing zone with a rich narrative they actually ignored it completely and implemented some stupid quests into phased old areas. The raid was lackluster, the end of N'Zoth was a "Return of the King" Remake with Saurons end without any own ideas. I mean.. we see some pillar crumbling to dust and thats it.. as like if a mini version of Barad Dur was crumbling to dust.. i am sure it would be more epic to watch Hazzikostas talking about encounter math than that..

No, sorry, beside a few cinematics the end of BFA was really bad.

I agree on the Black Empire being wasted part, but as it was the last known Old God, and IIRC the weakest it wouldn't make much sense for him getting a different treatment than the previous 2. He had more hinting and story around him in that expansion than the previous ones. I assume they added Nyalotha to it as they saw it like something they couldn't use anymore after the last Old God has been defeated so they decided to add it, but from the raid design to me it seems like we were just in the Nzoth part of the Black empire. Could still possibly see some sort of return relating to the 5th old god or Knaifu.

But in all honesty, that is what Old Gods always have been, filler/patch bosses and Nzoth got better treatment than the previous ones. Black Empire/Nyalotha was wasted, I agree, but it never had the substance to be much more. Also the only Old God we got in game cinematics for.

I guess in a sense I don't mind the ending of BfA or think it was bad as much as you do, the only gripe I have is the underwhelming raid "cinematic".

[Wadrak]

Only because it was better than WoD does not mean it was good. The end of N'Zoth and the whole implementation of the Black Empire was a joke compared what could have been done. Instead of implementing the Black Empire as a questing zone with a rich narrative they actually ignored it completely and implemented some stupid quests into phased old areas. The raid was lackluster, the end of N'Zoth was a "Return of the King" Remake with Saurons end without any own ideas. I mean.. we see some pillar crumbling to dust and thats it.. as like if a mini version of Barad Dur was crumbling to dust.. i am sure it would be more epic to watch Hazzikostas talking about encounter math than that..

No, sorry, beside a few cinematics the end of BFA was really bad.

I dont like when they "intrude" content patch into old zone like that, feels kind of cheap. And also confusing, you dont know whats new content or old, I dont like that.

Tbh overall it wasnt that bad but could be better.

I remember speculations before it was released, there will be new island covered in fog and thats where Nzoth will be .... since whole BFA was about fleets and water ... but Nzoth was in desert

[Shadochi]

Somewhere on YouTube, I remember seeing that "end of N'Zoth" cinematic set to the music over the tower's fall at the end of "Return of the King," and it was hilarious how it matched up almost perfectly. Hilarious, and yet so sad at the same time.

Also I jsut realized I haven't rewatched this cinematic since it came out

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Somewhere on YouTube, I remember seeing that "end of N'Zoth" cinematic set to the music over the tower's fall at the end of "Return of the King," and it was hilarious how it matched up almost perfectly. Hilarious, and yet so sad at the same time.

Probably because that was the intent when making the cinematic -.-

[KOUNTERPARTS]

TBC: demons invade, we go to Outland
WotLK: undead invasion, we go to Northrend
Cata: elemental unrest (earthquakes), dragon shows up


Legion: demons invade, we got to Outland Broken Isles
Shadowlands: undead invasion of Icecrown*, we got to Northrend the Shadowlands
seemingly "real" Dragon Isles leaks: elemental unrest (earthquakes), dragon island* shows up


Even if the leak turns out true, does anybody take issue with the seemingly formulaic trend that is followed with these expansions? I mean yeah... BfA breaks the streak in this regard. But at the time of Legion, people called it TBC 2.0. Before and during Shadowlands, people call it WotLK 2.0. How are all of these Dragon Isles leaks not just Cataclysm 2.0 at this point? lol

[damonskye]

Also I jsut realized I haven't rewatched this cinematic since it came out

Yep, that was the one Shadochi, thanks

[KOUNTERPARTS]

But in all honesty, that is what Old Gods always have been, filler/patch bosses and Nzoth got better treatment than the previous ones.

And it has been one of the biggest and continuous travesties on-going in World of Warcraft.

[Jokubas]

The difference is that Battle for Azeroth had all of its patches. I don't like the story it told, but it told the whole story (for instance, I found the Vision of N'Zoth cutscene where the cathedral gets knocked over to be the sort of thing I would have actually liked to have seen in-game. In other words, something like Bloodborne, where we realize these terrible things have been right in front of us all along, but the insanity elements of the old gods is basically irrelevant outside the Visions of N'Zoth game mode).

Warlords of Draenor on the other hand didn't even just lose its detour patch, it lost two patches (its X.1 patch was infamously basically a dolled-up X.X.5 patch). Although I'm not sure we lost as much story as that normally would have cost us, though. Warlords of Draenor was a very unusual expansion from the beginning, and we have more early development stuff from it than any other, implying they were still putting it together while showing it to us, so any missing content is probably more "didn't choose that story draft" than "massively cut the draft they chose." For instance, Farahlon was very notable for being cut, but it was basically doomed before the expansion came out. The whole plant life infestation thing was originally a Farahlon plot (they were called the Fara and we were even told that name early on), but when they wanted to add variety to the zones, they cannibalized the Fara for Gorgrond and that was before launch, let alone getting to its patch.

[damonskye]

Probably because that was the intent when making the cinematic -.-

I think that's the problem. Homage is one thing... but honestly, the end of BFA was literally just ripping off the end of LoTR, and very poorly at that, by putting down an enemy that SHOULD have been an expansion-wide big bad on the order of the Lich King or Deathwing. It's the disappointment that's the key here.

[Shadochi]

I dont like when they "intrude" content patch into old zone like that, feels kind of cheap. And also confusing, you dont know whats new content or old, I dont like that.

Tbh overall it wasnt that bad but could be better.

I remember speculations before it was released, there will be new island covered in fog and thats where Nzoth will be .... since whole BFA was about fleets and water ... but Nzoth was in desert

Technically we first encountered him in quests that took place in the Crucible of Storms second room. Though his real form was probably in Nyalotha (I assume all old gods were in both realms until defeated). Btw what do you think happened to his whole body when we defeated him? Stormsong Valley probably is going through seismic activity followed by bad smell because of all the rotting flesh.

As for using old zones. Doing a Zidormi might be confusing, but they could add one of the zones we never got to explore after doing it in leveling, Exile's Reach would take the least work. Just plop it somewhere farish off the coast of one of the Landmasses and add templated new zone content with a 1-2h questline and 2 boss mini raid dealing with Ogres trying to raise dragons from the dead. Wouldn't cause confusion as it is not currently accessible outside of the 1-10 experience

- - - Updated - - -

TBC: demons invade, we go to Outland
WotLK: undead invasion, we go to Northrend
Cata: elemental unrest (earthquakes), dragon shows up


Legion: demons invade, we got to Outland Broken Isles
Shadowlands: undead invasion of Icecrown*, we got to Northrend the Shadowlands
seemingly "real" Dragon Isles leaks: elemental unrest (earthquakes), dragon island* shows up


Even if the leak turns out true, does anybody take issue with the seemingly formulaic trend that is followed with these expansions? At the time of Legion, people called it TBC 2.0. Before and during Shadowlands, people call it WotLK 2.0. How are all of these Dragon Isles leaks not just Cataclysm 2.0 at this point? lol

You're missing the fact that there is an expansion most would like to forget between TBC 2.0 and Wrath 2.0. So it isn't a theme (this isn't just you forgetting, someone else made the same mistake a few days ago)