1. #1881
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I think what worked well in BfA was the story of the zones. Not the overarching story arcs, they’ve been trash tier from start to finish. But Zandalar‘s story was great in my opinion. Kul‘Tiras was okayish.

    Shadowlands... I don’t know. The overarching story seems way better, but not sure about the other stuff. I think the biggest problem with BfA‘s story was just the butchering of many beloved characters and that nothing made sense.
    Bfa had some strong story elements going on, but the execution and trying to force the horde vs alliance war is kind of what made other stories suffer.

    Azshara, zandalri trolls are main examples, but they felt rushed and they could have done so much more with it.

    Many feel like these elements were wasted for other narratives such as the war or Sylvanas that felt out of place and I agree.

    I am still bitter at Rastakahn and Azshara for that matter.

  2. #1882
    The Insane Chickat's Avatar
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    I think BFA should have ended with Azshara. We wasted Nzoth for a shitty raid with no zone. The biggest disappointment in WoW history. More disappointing than Deathwing IMO. Also, does anyone else feel like we had a harder time-fighting Deathwing?

  3. #1883
    So we will have IonxPreach interview in 3 days, interesting. No one really call for it, so it could be some potential good info.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    I think BFA should have ended with Azshara. We wasted Nzoth for a shitty raid with no zone. The biggest disappointment in WoW history. More disappointing than Deathwing IMO. Also, does anyone else feel like we had a harder time-fighting Deathwing?
    Raid was pretty good (and really big compared to other BfA raids), maybe 2nd Nzoth fight wasn't as epic as we used to in modern raids, but it wasn't some catastrophe like Deathwing either. We didn't have new zones, but we still got timeless isle content and some story, this time with flying from day 1. Visions were pretty fun, to be honest time pressure made them more fun (for me) than Torghast. Corruption effects were horrible on launch, but later you could craft bis character and play around with them.

    Story with N'zoth was so weird they can bring him back any time. For sure soon we will be fed up with Void themes anyway, with or without N'zoth & Nyalotha.

    Overall 8.3 wasn't amazing patch, but it did it's job well, waiting for 9.0 didn't drag like 6.0 or 7.0, especially with various buffs during 'drought'. For sure it was better than potential ~1.5 year long 9 boss raid.

  4. #1884
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    I think BFA should have ended with Azshara. We wasted Nzoth for a shitty raid with no zone. The biggest disappointment in WoW history. More disappointing than Deathwing IMO. Also, does anyone else feel like we had a harder time-fighting Deathwing?
    Personally I didn't like corruption. It was the patch I played less in the whole cycle of wow due to the patch mechanics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Firedemon View Post
    No. On these forums any updates mean an expansion hint.
    Wrathin comes back? Dragon expansion clearly!
    LK part of a quest? Wotlk 2 clearly!
    Sylvanas working with a death master? Shadowlands clearly!

    At the point we're headed for Wrath of the Shdowlands Dragon Isles Lich and tinkers.

  5. #1885
    Herald of the Titans Valysar's Avatar
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    It's weird that Helya is not in the next raid, maybe she is planned for another miniraid, again ?

  6. #1886
    Please, for the love of God, Blizzard. Make the Maw weapons you added in 9.0 available for players as well.

  7. #1887
    Quote Originally Posted by Valysar View Post
    It's weird that Helya is not in the next raid, maybe she is planned for another miniraid, again ?
    Maybe she croaks in one of the campaign chapters. Having fought her 2 times already in dungeons/raids, I don't really feel she is interesting enough to give her a 3rd outing.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  8. #1888
    Quote Originally Posted by Valysar View Post
    It's weird that Helya is not in the next raid, maybe she is planned for another miniraid, again ?
    She'll most likely be part of the final raid like Mueh'zala. We need some household names for the Jailer raid and Helya, Mueh'zala and Anduin are those (next to the Jailer).
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  9. #1889
    Bloodsail Admiral Pheraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    Maybe she croaks in one of the campaign chapters. Having fought her 2 times already in dungeons/raids, I don't really feel she is interesting enough to give her a 3rd outing.
    Kaeltas and the isle of blood-elves-draenei-are-best-friends-now disagree
    Vynd | Zorn | Pheraz | Silwyna | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle | Farodin - My personal Kaldorei army <3 I miss Bfa

  10. #1890
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    Kaeltas and the isle of blood-elves-draenei-are-best-friends-now disagree
    Kaelthas being the epitome of the wow meme that "no one actually dies in WoW" is not exactly the greatest refutation of my argument. If anything it took over 10 years before we fought him for a 3rd time and I wasn't hyped for that encounter at all. Hellya being an equally annoying screeching bitch with just as much arrogance but only a fraction of the story background is not really going to make it any better.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  11. #1891
    Surprised nobody posted this already: https://www.wowhead.com/news/ion-haz...age=3#comments

    I mean it's barely new information as we were all speculating about

    TBC pre patch: Mid May
    TBC launch: Early June
    9.1: late June / July


    Yet it's another piece of information that they won't release TBC and 9.1 too close to each other. I'd say the gap will be at least 4 weeks between those two releases. They need to release something for a massive Q2 push and they need a release in Q3 for a push in that quarter on top of it. As TBC is undoubtly the bigger release, I'm fairly certain it will act as the Q2 push.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2021-04-25 at 01:29 PM.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  12. #1892
    Loa of Death Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Bfa had some strong story elements going on, but the execution and trying to force the horde vs alliance war is kind of what made other stories suffer.

    Azshara, zandalri trolls are main examples, but they felt rushed and they could have done so much more with it.

    Many feel like these elements were wasted for other narratives such as the war or Sylvanas that felt out of place and I agree.

    I am still bitter at Rastakahn and Azshara for that matter.
    They really, really did Rastakhan awfully in BfA. And thanks to him being dead, there's no way to undo it. We can only hope thatb he just ... 'returns' one day somehow.

    Like... could they have written him diffrent that he didn't die? Ugh

    Another day, another Deal....

  13. #1893
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    She'll most likely be part of the final raid like Mueh'zala. We need some household names for the Jailer raid and Helya, Mueh'zala and Anduin are those (next to the Jailer).
    You say that, but Blizzard really doesnt have the best track record with making final raids that actually tie together several elements. At best they usually have no-name villains stand in for a portion of the expansion, and they rarely even do that.

    Honestly, how often do we really see final raids like SoO or HFC that brings back known characters to tie off their storyline. SoO was the best at this. and HFC is a far cry from that despite being the second best.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #1894
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Wu View Post
    Seems like The Primus is far and away the strongest of the 4 covenant leaders and their de-facto leader.

    The Winter Queen seems #2 in power, followed by Kyrestia at #3. Denathrius might be the weakest out of them (but still really strong) however probably the most cunning and intelligent by a long shot.

    Kyrestia seems the least impressive of them regardless.
    I'd say that the Primus may be more intelligent than Denathrius, even if Denathrius is more cunning and manipulative. It seems like the Primus is a very hardened tactician and apparently a writer of enough treatises on warfare that he managed to fill a library full of them.

  15. #1895
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Bfa had some strong story elements going on, but the execution and trying to force the horde vs alliance war is kind of what made other stories suffer.

    Azshara, zandalri trolls are main examples, but they felt rushed and they could have done so much more with it.

    Many feel like these elements were wasted for other narratives such as the war or Sylvanas that felt out of place and I agree.

    I am still bitter at Rastakahn and Azshara for that matter.
    Other than the problems with the war storyline in general I would say the biggest sin of BfA was that it tried tying together 2 completelly disparate plotlines without even attempting to marry them into a cohesive whole, or worse yet know from the start to not play up one of them if they knew they were not going to have a big payoff.

    The war storyline was far from perfect, but at least it gave us interesting new stuff, and there was a perfectly reasonably ending right there that would have ended the plotline AND led into SL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I'd say that the Primus may be more intelligent than Denathrius, even if Denathrius is more cunning and manipulative. It seems like the Primus is a very hardened tactician and apparently a writer of enough treatises on warfare that he managed to fill a library full of them.
    I guess it does make sense in some way.

    The 4 covenants do seem to eb the 4 important ones, and of those the Winter Queen is the one with the least amount of connection or reason to engage with the others.
    Kyrestia should be more influental, but the story has shown her to be as effective as a wet sponge, which only leaves the Primus and Denathrius as the true "leaders" of the Shadowlands. And given we now know that Denathrius is evil that only leaves the Primus.

    Not to mention he is essentially the general of their armies in the moment where they need one the most, don't really see why they wouldnt defer to him given this is literally his area of expertise, not to mention he was the only one that actually saw it coming.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  16. #1896
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    You say that, but Blizzard really doesnt have the best track record with making final raids that actually tie together several elements. At best they usually have no-name villains stand in for a portion of the expansion, and they rarely even do that.

    Honestly, how often do we really see final raids like SoO or HFC that brings back known characters to tie off their storyline. SoO was the best at this. and HFC is a far cry from that despite being the second best.
    I'm assuming that the final raid will be another 9-13 boss raid most likely. That leaves at least 5-9 spots for no name or side characters, if we assume Jailer, Anduin, Helya and Mueh'zala are big name boss fights. It's really not that much honestly.

    I could see them sparing Bwonsamdi & Mueh'zala for another expansion though and just having Helya as a boss where we finally kill her. There's enough room to get these names out of the game. I mean, with what kind of enemies would they fill the last raid so that it doesn't feel like a rehash of Sanctum of Domination?
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  17. #1897
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I'm assuming that the final raid will be another 9-13 boss raid most likely. That leaves at least 5-9 spots for no name or side characters, if we assume Jailer, Anduin, Helya and Mueh'zala are big name boss fights. It's really not that much honestly.

    I could see them sparing Bwonsamdi & Mueh'zala for another expansion though and just having Helya as a boss where we finally kill her. There's enough room to get these names out of the game. I mean, with what kind of enemies would they fill the last raid so that it doesn't feel like a rehash of Sanctum of Domination?
    Ideal final raids to me at least work as a sort of "best of" compilation for the entire expansion, this is exactly what made SoO the ideal final raid. That one tied together elements of Pandaria, having quest givers that were turned, a fight against a final sha, a boss fight where we had to secure a beachead making it feel like a real war, bosses with narrative ties way back to Cata with the Dragonmaw clan and a boss fight against Nazgrim in the introductory area of Raggefire. More importantly though it had at least one boss dedicated to each standalone narrative. There was the Sha fight, faction war fight, giant dinosaurs, evil horde, and of course a bit of old god.

    Revently tough we have gotten raids with only one distinct theme. At best it gives at least some variety in color scheme to give some variety, but really the only final raid I can think of that really managed to make itself feel diversse is SoO. Ny'alotha was the same black and red all throughout with a hint of blue flesh at the end. Antorus was fel green until the last few bosses where it was red.
    Even old classics like ICC couldnt pull off making distinct areas outside the airship battle. Everything just ended up looking similar in the end.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  18. #1898
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    I'm assuming that the final raid will be another 9-13 boss raid most likely. That leaves at least 5-9 spots for no name or side characters, if we assume Jailer, Anduin, Helya and Mueh'zala are big name boss fights. It's really not that much honestly.

    I could see them sparing Bwonsamdi & Mueh'zala for another expansion though and just having Helya as a boss where we finally kill her. There's enough room to get these names out of the game. I mean, with what kind of enemies would they fill the last raid so that it doesn't feel like a rehash of Sanctum of Domination?
    Hold on. Hold on...

    I have a theory. What if the Sepulcher the Jailer wants is in the Realms of Life?

  19. #1899
    Quote Originally Posted by Valysar View Post
    It's weird that Helya is not in the next raid, maybe she is planned for another miniraid, again ?
    Considering the Val'kyr and the Kyrian are teaming, and considering the final chapter of the patch is...well...Kyrian. I think Helya's the final boss there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    I really really hope we have something similar to what I've seen bellular talk about, just like "World of Wacraft - Azeroth"

    I know people will say oh fuck that that is so boring, and I do get that, I just think they're like seriously screwed up the Azeroth content recently and it could have been so much more interesting. Kinda what he says like, no big bad world ending villain just simple stuff, scarlet brotherhood get some source of power and we have to go whupp them, some ancient dragon comes from underground or something, we rock up to undermine perhaps for a raid on an evil goblin or something haha. Just simple stuff like we used to see more in the past.

    WoW is increasingly heading in the galactic/universe direction and I find it more and more jarring from what I personally came to love Warcraft for, which tbh was just like the whole orcs vs humans thing, night elves in there, some naga here and there, the orcs and dragons and zeppelins in the forests and all that stuff. I know the game has to progress and make new content/ideas, but that's what I want. Id personally love to see us go across to the other side of azeroth, discover new major continents like Pandaria, perhaps even a giant continent as big as kalimdor etc, more of the same though, dragons, trolls, furbolgs, satyrs, all that.
    The last time WoW became grounded, it had to deviate to the Black Empire cause the plot was so fucking boring.

  20. #1900
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Ideal final raids to me at least work as a sort of "best of" compilation for the entire expansion, this is exactly what made SoO the ideal final raid. That one tied together elements of Pandaria, having quest givers that were turned, a fight against a final sha, a boss fight where we had to secure a beachead making it feel like a real war, bosses with narrative ties way back to Cata with the Dragonmaw clan and a boss fight against Nazgrim in the introductory area of Raggefire. More importantly though it had at least one boss dedicated to each standalone narrative. There was the Sha fight, faction war fight, giant dinosaurs, evil horde, and of course a bit of old god.

    Revently tough we have gotten raids with only one distinct theme. At best it gives at least some variety in color scheme to give some variety, but really the only final raid I can think of that really managed to make itself feel diversse is SoO. Ny'alotha was the same black and red all throughout with a hint of blue flesh at the end. Antorus was fel green until the last few bosses where it was red.
    Even old classics like ICC couldnt pull off making distinct areas outside the airship battle. Everything just ended up looking similar in the end.
    I mean, are you disagreeing or agreeing with what I said, because I really don't get it.

    I agree with you though and that's why I think a final raid with certain different locations makes most sense, if we don't get that it will basically be Sanctum of Dominaion round 2. That's why I keep saying that the final right will take place in Oribos, will then head over to Azeroth and either culminate on Icecrown Citadel or Stormwind. Maybe we'll have a short visit to Lordaeron as a throwback to Arthas and Terenas. We could get some fights in Mueh'zala's realm (if he is a boss) or in Helya's... but Helya already feels very rehashed and her theme is like the same old death theme we already have in Shadowlands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Hold on. Hold on...

    I have a theory. What if the Sepulcher the Jailer wants is in the Realms of Life?
    I mean there's a reason why he wants to go to Azeroth...
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

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