Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[huth]

And then there's Tyrande *Kicks a small rock*

Tyrande is kinda busy marauding through Torghast.

[Nyel]

Ka'resh will likely be a patch, like Argus. But, yeah, I do expect Light and Shadow to be 10.0. However, to say that the Jailer is "one man" is kinda dumb. The dude's the Enemy of All for a reason.

The "dude" is in the Warcraft universe for a bit over a year now and hasn't done anything remotely freightening or impressive yet. If he truly is the massive villain, Blizzard better steps up their writing and give us something in 9.1 that makes him intimidating.

[Sondrelk]

The "dude" is in the Warcraft universe for a bit over a year now and hasn't done anything remotely freightening or impressive yet. If he truly is the massive villain, Blizzard better steps up their writing and give us something in 9.1 that makes him intimidating.

The Jailer really is kinda boring. It takes more than simply claiming that he is behind Arthas to make him interesting.

Not even sure how they could make him interesting even considering we spend the rest of the patches building him up. The only realistic way I could see is to make him some previously known character like Argus or timetravelling Aman'thul or whatever.

Hopefully Sylvanas doesnt actually die in 9.1 and isntead gets to keep being evil. We need her character for the players to really care.

[TheFirstOnes]

The "dude" is in the Warcraft universe for a bit over a year now and hasn't done anything remotely freightening or impressive yet. If he truly is the massive villain, Blizzard better steps up their writing and give us something in 9.1 that makes him intimidating.

I'm pretty sure 9.1 is the build up patch. Like I said, I think we'll lose in the Sanctum of Domination, and the raid's either gonna end in a cinematic, or Halls of Reflection style, with the end result still being the Jailer fucking us up.

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The Jailer really is kinda boring. It takes more than simply claiming that he is behind Arthas to make him interesting.

Not even sure how they could make him interesting even considering we spend the rest of the patches building him up. The only realistic way I could see is to make him some previously known character like Argus or timetravelling Aman'thul or whatever.

Hopefully Sylvanas doesnt actually die in 9.1 and isntead gets to keep being evil. We need her character for the players to really care.

My assumption is that the Jailer's using her as bait to lure us, the covenants, and their keys to him.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The Jailer really is kinda boring. It takes more than simply claiming that he is behind Arthas to make him interesting.

Not even sure how they could make him interesting even considering we spend the rest of the patches building him up. The only realistic way I could see is to make him some previously known character like Argus or timetravelling Aman'thul or whatever.

Hopefully Sylvanas doesnt actually die in 9.1 and isntead gets to keep being evil. We need her character for the players to really care.

Its like you two are playing a completely different game.

[Sondrelk]

Its like you two are playing a completely different game.

What is sso interesting about the Jailer then?
He is powerful, sure. And he is a threat to Azeroth that we do care about stopping, but there isnt any personal connection to him from the player like there is between the player and Sylvanas.

I bet loads of players are really looking forward to defeating Sylvanas. But I have yet to hear anyone care about defeating the Jailer.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

What is sso interesting about the Jailer then?
He is powerful, sure. And he is a threat to Azeroth that we do care about stopping, but there isnt any personal connection to him from the player like there is between the player and Sylvanas.

I bet loads of players are really looking forward to defeating Sylvanas. But I have yet to hear anyone care about defeating the Jailer.

He's interesting to watch and he's been responsible for one of the more important events in Warcraft history, thats enough to care about him. He also clearly could severely cripple us if he wanted to and wasn't held back by being stuck in the Maw. I'm also just waiting for him to discard Sylvanas because I half expect him to, the same way he did with Denathrius.

[Sondrelk]

He's interesting to watch and he's been responsible for one of the more important events in Warcraft history, thats enough to care about him. He also clearly could severely cripple us if he wanted to and wasn't held back by being stuck in the Maw. I'm also just waiting for him to discard Sylvanas because I half expect him to, the same way he did with Denathrius.

I am not saying that he isnt powerful. I am saying that outside him being retconned into being the man behind the man for Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination and therefore Arthas, he hasnt actually done much to personally antagonize the player characters and make us care about him as a villain.

The bigger problem however is that he is standing next to Sylvanas, and while he is undoubtedly more powerful, as well as likely a better schemer and all that, he cannot really measure up to over a decades worth of character development, player interraction and general evil deeds.
Sylvanas burned down Teldrassil, which is a very personal action, further punctuated by its own cinematic and half an expansion dedicated to the fallout, and that was just in BfA.
The Jailer has since his introduction been primarily built up as someone allied with Sylvanas. Discounting vague stuff like breaking the Shadowlands and torturing souls the worst things we have seen him do onscreen is almost killing Baine and making Anduin into a puppet.

Again, if all we are judging him by is how powerful he is as an adversary then he is good enough, but ideally we the players should also have personal investment into defeating him, not just defeating him because we have to for the story to function.

[Dracullus]

Some guesses for 9.1 and future:

- Sylvanas is killed, get ending similar to Kil'jaeden; not sure if she should be destroyed (or pass to light with 'true' death, it's pretty stupid you can 'die' in your afterlife) or just killed and sucked to Maw as regular Jailer mindless soul
- Jailer isn't free yet, but f*ck us pretty good so we are not even going back to Maw in near future (lorewise), in 9.2 instead of Torghast updates we get Mage Tower 2.0 (hey, it's wishlist, let me dream)
- few souls manage to escape with us, including Arthas (maybe with Sylvanas help) and Primus
- not sure about Tyrande, death would be fitting end (consumed by hate etc.), but on the other side that whole Night Warrior stuff could be explored more in future expac with Elune
- Arthas will be key or have knowledge how to free Anduin
- Korthia's secret is location of 5th hidden Covenant and last key (now Jailer has Venthyr and Kyrian, very likely he will get Night Fae during 9.1, 4th probably has Draka), it's place for peaceful souls that suffered too much in their lives
- so both our and Anduin forces are going there with a bang in 9.2, guess peace times are over, I'm so sorry Cairne
- we free Anduin, but loose keys, Arthas remains in this new zone (I know he's done many bad things, but he already spend many years in literal hell) and wave us goodbye (he wasn't useful in combat, just his knowledge was needed to help Anduin)
- we learn something about Nathrezim around here - some piece of info from Primus, rest we extort from Denathrius
- 9.3 Jailer is free and prepare ritual #3412 'crossing to Azeroth' - no problem, it will take him whole patch
- main zone - reworked Icecrown
- side zone (almost pure sandbox) - that side afterlife for Inventors (it could be even unlocked after last raid as filler content mostly with transmog and mounts)
- three remaining portals in Oribos will be: 1) 9.1 dungeon, 2) 9.2 Covenant zone 3) inventors paradise (it has even name in lore, basically it would be Mechagon 2.0).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I am not saying that he isnt powerful. I am saying that outside him being retconned into being the man behind the man for Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination and therefore Arthas, he hasnt actually done much to personally antagonize the player characters and make us care about him as a villain.

The bigger problem however is that he is standing next to Sylvanas, and while he is undoubtedly more powerful, as well as likely a better schemer and all that, he cannot really measure up to over a decades worth of character development, player interraction and general evil deeds.
Sylvanas burned down Teldrassil, which is a very personal action, further punctuated by its own cinematic and half an expansion dedicated to the fallout, and that was just in BfA.
The Jailer has since his introduction been primarily built up as someone allied with Sylvanas. Discounting vague stuff like breaking the Shadowlands and torturing souls the worst things we have seen him do onscreen is almost killing Baine and making Anduin into a puppet.

Again, if all we are judging him by is how powerful he is as an adversary then he is good enough, but ideally we the players should also have personal investment into defeating him, not just defeating him because we have to for the story to function.

That connection you keep talking about is the events we have watched and known about for so many years. His influence affected the fate of the Alliance, the Forsaken and even the Kal'dorei themselves to a degree(More so now cause Sylvie but you get the point). He's been the Lich King's shadow for years. There's enough connection there.

Sylvanas is killed, get ending similar to Kil'jaeden; not sure if she should be destroyed (or pass to light with 'true' death, it's pretty stupid you can 'die' in your afterlife)

Regarding this part, I don't like the idea that even afterlife can have you die. It seems silly, IMO you should persist regardless(Unless you're doing some crazy thing to stop say the Jailer using all of your remaining "soul energy" to kill him. Course there is always echos, to show you're not really gone but I wouldn't use this option but..just wanted to say.

As for Tyrande, well I'd like her to eventually give up the Night warrior's power and put emphasis on the power of a goddess is just too much to wield for her. After doing so though, it doesn't mean she abandons the hunt for Sylvanas and go home. No, she still has to do her "Vengeance" but its not reckless and well ROID RAGED hatred. I don't know what would satisfy everyone for Arthas but, I think we should leave him as sympathetic, he has to live with the memories of him decimating his kingdom(Post frostmourne stuff). He's more upset at himself and such and anything that reminds him of Frostmourne sorta disgusts him.

[huth]

That connection you keep talking about is the events we have watched and known about for so many years. His influence affected the fate of the Alliance, the Forsaken and even the Kal'dorei themselves to a degree(More so now cause Sylvie but you get the point). He's been the Lich King's shadow for years. There's enough connection there.

Don't forget the Legion.

And yet, we still know next to nothing about him. It certainly seems like 9.1 is in large part going to be about discovering what his plans are about and why they are an issue we need to deal with.

[razorpax]

The "dude" is in the Warcraft universe for a bit over a year now and hasn't done anything remotely freightening or impressive yet. If he truly is the massive villain, Blizzard better steps up their writing and give us something in 9.1 that makes him intimidating.

He is the reason behind the lich king

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Some guesses for 9.1 and future:

- Sylvanas is killed, get ending similar to Kil'jaeden; not sure if she should be destroyed (or pass to light with 'true' death, it's pretty stupid you can 'die' in your afterlife) or just killed and sucked to Maw as regular Jailer mindless soul
- Jailer isn't free yet, but f*ck us pretty good so we are not even going back to Maw in near future (lorewise), in 9.2 instead of Torghast updates we get Mage Tower 2.0 (hey, it's wishlist, let me dream)
- few souls manage to escape with us, including Arthas (maybe with Sylvanas help) and Primus
- not sure about Tyrande, death would be fitting end (consumed by hate etc.), but on the other side that whole Night Warrior stuff could be explored more in future expac with Elune
- Arthas will be key or have knowledge how to free Anduin
- Korthia's secret is location of 5th hidden Covenant and last key (now Jailer has Venthyr and Kyrian, very likely he will get Night Fae during 9.1, 4th probably has Draka), it's place for peaceful souls that suffered too much in their lives
- so both our and Anduin forces are going there with a bang in 9.2, guess peace times are over, I'm so sorry Cairne
- we free Anduin, but loose keys, Arthas remains in this new zone (I know he's done many bad things, but he already spend many years in literal hell) and wave us goodbye (he wasn't useful in combat, just his knowledge was needed to help Anduin)
- we learn something about Nathrezim around here - some piece of info from Primus, rest we extort from Denathrius
- 9.3 Jailer is free and prepare ritual #3412 'crossing to Azeroth' - no problem, it will take him whole patch
- main zone - reworked Icecrown
- side zone (almost pure sandbox) - that side afterlife for Inventors (it could be even unlocked after last raid as filler content mostly with transmog and mounts)
- three remaining portals in Oribos will be: 1) 9.1 dungeon, 2) 9.2 Covenant zone 3) inventors paradise (it has even name in lore, basically it would be Mechagon 2.0).

I like the idea of us seeing Arthas and him knowing that he understands his place and he sees Anduin and Bolvar showing that the path he followed was different

[TheFirstOnes]

Some guesses for 9.1 and future:

- Sylvanas is killed, get ending similar to Kil'jaeden; not sure if she should be destroyed (or pass to light with 'true' death, it's pretty stupid you can 'die' in your afterlife) or just killed and sucked to Maw as regular Jailer mindless soul
- Jailer isn't free yet, but f*ck us pretty good so we are not even going back to Maw in near future (lorewise), in 9.2 instead of Torghast updates we get Mage Tower 2.0 (hey, it's wishlist, let me dream)
- few souls manage to escape with us, including Arthas (maybe with Sylvanas help) and Primus
- not sure about Tyrande, death would be fitting end (consumed by hate etc.), but on the other side that whole Night Warrior stuff could be explored more in future expac with Elune
- Arthas will be key or have knowledge how to free Anduin
- Korthia's secret is location of 5th hidden Covenant and last key (now Jailer has Venthyr and Kyrian, very likely he will get Night Fae during 9.1, 4th probably has Draka), it's place for peaceful souls that suffered too much in their lives
- so both our and Anduin forces are going there with a bang in 9.2, guess peace times are over, I'm so sorry Cairne
- we free Anduin, but loose keys, Arthas remains in this new zone (I know he's done many bad things, but he already spend many years in literal hell) and wave us goodbye (he wasn't useful in combat, just his knowledge was needed to help Anduin)
- we learn something about Nathrezim around here - some piece of info from Primus, rest we extort from Denathrius
- 9.3 Jailer is free and prepare ritual #3412 'crossing to Azeroth' - no problem, it will take him whole patch
- main zone - reworked Icecrown
- side zone (almost pure sandbox) - that side afterlife for Inventors (it could be even unlocked after last raid as filler content mostly with transmog and mounts)
- three remaining portals in Oribos will be: 1) 9.1 dungeon, 2) 9.2 Covenant zone 3) inventors paradise (it has even name in lore, basically it would be Mechagon 2.0).

I assume 9.2 will be about Life. Not a new covenant.

[Revamp Man]

I assume 9.2 will be about Life. Not a new covenant.

people assumed 9.1 was gonna be a covenant raid

it will depend on how the new storylines end

[TaliaKirana]

I still don't think they're gonna waste a visit to the Planes of Life on a patch. The first reference we've gotten to this being an actual thing is too small and subtle for near future patch content. It smells more like "this is future expansion content."

[therumblings]

I still don't think they're gonna waste a visit to the Planes of Life on a patch. The first reference we've gotten to this being an actual thing is too small and subtle for near future patch content. It smells more like "this is future expansion content."

Not saying I disagree, but the last 2 expansions both ended with future expansion concepts fans had and made them into patches.

[TheFirstOnes]

I still don't think they're gonna waste a visit to the Planes of Life on a patch. The first reference we've gotten to this being an actual thing is too small and subtle for near future patch content. It smells more like "this is future expansion content."

Argus was wasted in a patch, same with Ny'alotha. No reason to believe the expansion focused on the Jailer trying to destroy both life and Death won't have a focus of the Planes of Life. Hell, Ardenweald legit has a connection and a vulnerability to the plane of Life. And IF the Sanctum of Domination ends with the forces of Death losing (Which is definitely a possibility), then chances are we're going to need all the help we can get.

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They could make the Planes of Life like Argus, where it's 3 different zones. I mean, the Shadowlands have 5 atm. :/ So...

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Not saying I disagree, but the last 2 expansions both ended with future expansion concepts fans had and made them into patches.

BFA was literally 3 expansions put into 1, and Legion was legit about Order and Disorder (We haven't seen the realm of Order yet, but that'll likely be patch shit too, ngl).

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people assumed 9.1 was gonna be a covenant raid

it will depend on how the new storylines end

I mean...what Covenant is there to explore? We're going to the Broker's main trading realm this patch, so that's out of the question.

Also, idk about the 9.1 Dungeon entrance being in Oribos. Could be in Korthia.

[Revamp Man]

I mean...what Covenant is there to explore? We're going to the Broker's main trading realm this patch, so that's out of the question.

Also, idk about the 9.1 Dungeon entrance being in Oribos. Could be in Korthia.

what i mean is prior to the reveal we kept hearing "drust raid" or "naxx 3.0" because for some reason people decided to convince themselves that each covenant would get a raid even though we finished the drust story and KT went to the maw

[TheFirstOnes]

what i mean is prior to the reveal we kept hearing "drust raid" or "naxx 3.0" because for some reason people decided to convince themselves that each covenant would get a raid even though we finished the drust story and KT went to the maw

Yeah, the Drust were pushed back by the end of the thing, and yes KT went to the Maw. Idk why people assumed that tbh. However, Ardenweald still has a lot of plotpoints remaining, and it being connected to the Plane of Life is also very interesting.

[Sondrelk]

what i mean is prior to the reveal we kept hearing "drust raid" or "naxx 3.0" because for some reason people decided to convince themselves that each covenant would get a raid even though we finished the drust story and KT went to the maw

Drust made sense when considering that the Drust got a really abrupt ending where we didn't really learn anything about how Thros functions, and more importantly how, or even if they were connected to the Jailer.

Naxx 3.0 made sense since KT might have been sent to the Maw, but he wasn't defeated. More importantly however Shadowlands lived and breathes WotLK nostalgia, made sense to have a raid that doubled down on that with a Maldraxxus themed raid.

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Nice to see 9.0.5 will show up next week. Seems like a mid to late May 9.1 is definitely possible.