Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[therumblings]

Yeah, No. Getting featured for 1 min in a CGI cinematic isn't more important than literally being the setting for the final showdown of the expansion. And your argument about Draenor doesn't make sense. AU Draenor was more relevant because it was the setting of one questline... as opposed to several questlines? What?

AU Draenor showing up for recruiting a race into the Horde is much more important than retrieving a few artifacts across every continent, or at least on par with each other. It's biased to say the artifacts are arbitrarily more important just to craft a fiction of 9.3 being cut.

Yes, people who thought 8.3 wasn't going to happen were foolish, the difference is that 8.1 came out 4 months after 8.0. 9.1? If we're being generous it will come out in June. 7 months after 9.0.

Blizzard is clearly going through problems with production right now, whether it's due to covid or some internal issue we don't know, but even if 9.1 was delayed I don't see why they would skip out on completing an expansion after the disaster that WoD was, unless they learned nothing from abandoning an expansion.

False equivalency, the two scenarios clearly aren't comparable. And I don't know why it's so unbelievable to think Shadowlands would have only 2 content patches, is this not what happened in WoD? There is clear precedent for it. Why are you so convinced that the situation in WoD can't be repeated?

I mean, it could be repeated, but that would indicate they learned nothing. Which, I guess isn't too surprising, but after Legion and BFA, providing a competent and complete expansion, even if the systems are shit, is better than abandoning an expansion and it's players. Because at least they would be trying to fix issues rather than just wait and make a new expansion.

But let's be optimistic and assume there will be a 9.3, where will 9.2 take place then? Hm? 9.1 is the big showdown with Sylvanas in the Maw, it would feel extremely anti-climactic to go from that to a random raid no one cares about in Ardenweald or Maldraxxus, don't you think? It would be a natural escalation that, after Sylvanas is dealt with, the Jailer himself, the man behind her, would be next. Not Bob the Evil One who is threatening Ardenweald.

This is the weakest argument here. Every expansion has a middle patch that leads to some B plot, like Nazjatar, Isle of Thunder, etc. They also have (literal) infinite possibilities with the Shadowlands realms. SL feels like the worst expansion to abandon considering they have so many possibilities for patches.

[username993720]

The world isn't black and white. That's just a vision problem you personally have.

You're trying to generalize classes and specs to the point of de-legitimization.

[Varodoc]

AU Draenor showing up for recruiting a race into the Horde is much more important than retrieving a few artifacts across every continent, or at least on par with each other. It's biased to say the artifacts are arbitrarily more important just to craft a fiction of 9.3 being cut.

Allied races and Artifact weapons are equally important, you're right. Since they were both the main selling points of their respective expansions.

And Northrend had several Artifact weapon questlines... while Draenor only had 1 expansion questline. So again Draenor was equal in portrayal to Northrend because... it had fewer questlines?

Literally this expansion started in Northrend lol.

This is the weakest argument here. Every expansion has a middle patch that leads to some B plot, like Nazjatar, Isle of Thunder, etc. They also have (literal) infinite possibilities with the Shadowlands realms. SL feels like the worst expansion to abandon considering they have so many possibilities for patches.

Nazjatar was closely connected to the showdown of the expansion. In Nazjatar, Azshara (N'Zoth's main servant) was defeated but ushered in her master's return, 8.3 picked up from that. Isle of Thunder was not connected to the main storyline, Yes, but MoP had 4 major content patches, not 3. Meaning that your point is moot. The second-to-last patch of MoP was indeed closely connected to the final patch of MoP.

They also have (literal) infinite possibilities with the Shadowlands realms.

Ah Yes, the infinite realms. Do you know what is likely to happen? That they'll just recycle the Argus Portal Invasion mechanic but with the Shadowlands realms instead. I can already picture it: "The Jailer has unleashed his forces across the Shadowlands as he prepares to complete his plans, while you wait for the raid go save these minor realms from the Jailer's forces!"

There was an entire continent right next to Draenor and Blizzard did nothing with it. There was an entire metropolis at the heart of Draenor and Blizzard did nothing with it. Don't be so certain that these "infinite realms" will be featured prominently.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yeah, No. Getting featured for 1 min in a CGI cinematic isn't more important than literally being the setting for the final showdown of the expansion. And your argument about Draenor doesn't make sense. AU Draenor was more relevant because it was the setting of one questline... as opposed to several questlines? What?

Yes, people who thought 8.3 wasn't going to happen were foolish, the difference is that 8.1 came out 4 months after 8.0. 9.1? If we're being generous it will come out in June. 7 months after 9.0.

False equivalency, the two scenarios clearly aren't comparable. And I don't know why it's so unbelievable to think Shadowlands would have only 2 content patches, is this not what happened in WoD? There is clear precedent for it. Why are you so convinced that the situation in WoD can't be repeated?

But let's be optimistic and assume there will be a 9.3, where will 9.2 take place then? Hm? 9.1 is the big showdown with Sylvanas in the Maw, it would feel extremely anti-climactic to go from that to a random raid no one cares about in Ardenweald or Maldraxxus, don't you think? It would be a natural escalation that, after Sylvanas is dealt with, the Jailer himself, the man behind her, would be next. Not Bob the Evil One who is threatening Ardenweald.

Funny how literally no one's taken to account my fucking 9.2 theory, but go off.

[therumblings]

There was an entire continent right next to Draenor and Blizzard did nothing with it. There was an entire metropolis at the heart of Draenor and Blizzard did nothing with it. Don't be so certain that these "infinite realms" will be featured prominently.

Your other points are redundant and don't really prove much about there not being a 9.3, but this in particular is only proving my point. The amount of ideas they have for every expansion is limitless, shadowlands in particular since it canonically is limitless. It has no bearing on whether or not that content will come into fruition yet. WoD didn't have the ogre continent because it was abandoned halfway through development to work of Legion. We have no idea what's going on with Blizzard right now, I think it's way too early to say this expansion has been abandoned and it's WoD 2.0, since literally each expac since WoD was called that, even Legion.

[ExiHext]

Not long now until the promised day when the 9.1 PTR begins.


Honestly, at this point I don't so much look forward ot it as I need it for continued engagement with the game.

Just hope the Covenant storyline looks interesting. I stand by Necrolord being the best covenant, and hopefully it keeps delivering, as well as the other ones at least being something close in quality, the Night Fae one especially being intriguing as we can get a feel for what the story will continue being in the absence of a direct antagonist.

They basically confirmed at blizzconline that there will only be one covenant campaign for all players with slight differences depending on your covenant so I wouldn't expect too much.

[Varodoc]

Once again time proves that Legion truly was a jewel. In Legion they had the time and resources to develop 12 different campaigns throughout the expansion (so they didn't just drop it after 7.0). Let that sink in.

I guess that abandoning WoD bore its fruits huh, maybe if they abandon Shadowlands 10.0 will also be great. It wouldn't be such a bad idea honestly.

[Nyel]

Blizzard is clearly going through problems with production right now, whether it's due to covid or some internal issue we don't know, but even if 9.1 was delayed I don't see why they would skip out on completing an expansion after the disaster that WoD was, unless they learned nothing from abandoning an expansion.

The answer to this is easy: cash and lack of time. For a proper expansion rollout (based on the expansion rollout from the last decade), they would need to delay 10.0. The schedule, and only if everything goes as planned and as they did in the past, would look like this:

9.1: June 21
9.2: December / January 21/22
9.3: June / July 22
10.0: March / April 23

This basically means delaying the release of the upcoming expansion not by one, but by two financial quarters. Which CFO would greenlight that, just to finish an expansion? You can finish Shadowlands easily by 9.2 or 9.2.5. We don’t even know if 9.3 was planned all along and this expansion was just meant to be the way it is right now. It’s speculation, yes, but based on previous patterns.

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They basically confirmed at blizzconline that there will only be one covenant campaign for all players with slight differences depending on your covenant so I wouldn't expect too much.

Yep. The 4 Covenant storylines basically become one storyline in 9.1. I’m curious if this was planned this way all along as it even further reduces the meaning of Covenants or if this happened due to budget cuts or scheduling issues and they just didn’t have the time to develop four distinct storylines.

[therumblings]

I'd honestly be fine with it ending at 9.2, assuming they have a huge 10.0 revamp in store for us, but that's still incredibly unlikely.

[Dracullus]

Once again time proves that Legion truly was a jewel. In Legion they had the time and resources to develop 12 different campaigns throughout the expansion (so they didn't just drop it after 7.0). Let that sink in.

I guess that abandoning WoD bore its fruits huh, maybe if they abandon Shadowlands 10.0 will also be great. It wouldn't be such a bad idea honestly.

Legion obviously had more content than SL, but of course that doesn't make it better expac by default. BfA had even more content than Legion, but it was distributed very poorly.

As for Class campaigns, people often forget 7.0 campaign was: intro -> mission table stuff -> chapter 1 -> more mission table -> grind 20 world quest -> final chapter. Imo SL is very strong on this field, especially if (unlike Legion and 8.2-8.2.5 BfA) SL patches will have proper story continuation, not few quest or scenario per patch.

And WoD is perfect example why abandoning expac ends up with disaster, even if decision was made before launch. You just can't throw more people to speed up expac, and for sure you won't save 6-7 months that could be filled with middle tier.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Legion obviously had more content than SL, but of course that doesn't make it better expac by default. BfA had even more content than Legion, but it was distributed very poorly.

As for Class campaigns, people often forget 7.0 campaign was: intro -> mission table stuff -> chapter 1 -> more mission table -> grind 20 world quest -> final chapter. Imo SL is very strong on this field, especially if (unlike Legion and 8.2-8.2.5 BfA) SL patches will have proper story continuation, not few quest or scenario per patch.

And WoD is perfect example why abandoning expac ends up with disaster, even if decision was made before launch. You just can't throw more people to speed up expac, and for sure you won't save 6-7 months that could be filled with middle tier.

Some of those campaigns even melded or were in similar places(Arms warrior and Shadow priest shared the area as well), Priests and Paladins eventually met up in the same place at the end of their campaign. I'm sure there is more but it wasn't entirely all new. Oh and people were loud about 7.1's Broken Shore.

[Nagawithlegs]

Once again time proves that Legion truly was a jewel. In Legion they had the time and resources to develop 12 different campaigns throughout the expansion (so they didn't just drop it after 7.0). Let that sink in.

I guess that abandoning WoD bore its fruits huh, maybe if they abandon Shadowlands 10.0 will also be great. It wouldn't be such a bad idea honestly.

A lot of Legion class campaigns were notoriously bad, and most of the 9.1/9.2 continuations were a single class follower. Don't be disingenuous.

[Zorachus]

Once again time proves that Legion truly was a jewel. In Legion they had the time and resources to develop 12 different campaigns throughout the expansion (so they didn't just drop it after 7.0). Let that sink in.

I guess that abandoning WoD bore its fruits huh, maybe if they abandon Shadowlands 10.0 will also be great. It wouldn't be such a bad idea honestly.

I like what I'm reading. I agree.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Once again time proves that Legion truly was a jewel. In Legion they had the time and resources to develop 12 different campaigns throughout the expansion (so they didn't just drop it after 7.0). Let that sink in.

I guess that abandoning WoD bore its fruits huh, maybe if they abandon Shadowlands 10.0 will also be great. It wouldn't be such a bad idea honestly.

Not quite. They had 12 campaigns at the beginning, which then teetered out extremely quickly with the subsequent patches, culminating halfway through the expansion with the final step; the mount questline. Back then a major criticism was that Blizzard obviously has not the resources or maybe even the skill to write 12 campaigns and because of that we get barely anything after the initial offering, since they can't sustain a 12-way fractured narrative. Because they couldn't keep it up, the completely abandoned it for Argus for example.

If anything it just shows that even with 6 times less fracturing, they can't pull off more story content, as seen in BfA where we had a 2-way split. Obviously going back into the other direction by making it a 4-way split wasn't going to change anything for the better. They seem to be fundamentally incapable of filling their (mmo)RPG with story - even when drip feeding it to you over the course of 8 weeks with insane amounts of padding.

Maybe that is also okay, because at the end of the day the WoW community never seemed to care about it and many have never read a quest text in their lives. Seeing the comments on some story lines here also leads me to believe actually trying would be pearl before the swine anyway.

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Some of those campaigns even melded or were in similar places(Arms warrior and Shadow priest shared the area as well), Priests and Paladins eventually met up in the same place at the end of their campaign. I'm sure there is more but it wasn't entirely all new. Oh and people were loud about 7.1's Broken Shore.

That was the artefact acquesition. The actual campains didn't have much overlap. The Mage Tower finals only had like 6 scenarios in total though.

[Lady Atia]

I wouldnt say this expansion feels like filler, especially when we have WoD which is the only expansion that truly felt like filler.

What I do feel from this expansion though is that it feels like a patch. Like if Argus from 7.3 was stretched out to be an entire expansion. It has the weight behind it storywise, and in theory you could easily glean all the content you want from it, but it feels kinda shallow.


I still stand by that a better version of this expansion would have been a Northrend revamp with the Shadowlands being visited eventually. Possibly as a zone in the initial endgame and later as patch zones. Similar to how the Maw is being presented now, with more content for it coming later.

No! We don't need more expansion-ideas beeing used as patch-content. They already butchered Emerald Nightmare, Argus, Nazjatar and Nyalotha that way ....

[ExiHext]

No! We don't need more expansion-ideas beeing used as patch-content. They already butchered Emerald Nightmare, Argus, Nazjatar and Nyalotha that way ....

I never expected to go to Argus, so I was ok with it being a patch. Same with Nyalotha.
Nazjatar and Emerald Nightmare/Dream are a different beast, they would have been great as expac zones.
I would say (at least for me) Shadowlands is in the first category, so finishing SL in a patch would have been ok for me. Just like Sondrelk suggested as a kind of hellish place. I am in general not too fond of how the afterlife in the warcraft universe is depicted since SL.

[Edward Wu]

Wonder what the chances are we see 9.1 deploy tonight?

Probably unlikely but one can hope. I'm stick here at home since it's raining all day and I don't work today.

[Baza]

I think that we won't have a 9.3, but we still will have 3 raid tiers. Usually, there are more than 3 raids per expansion, but only 3 raid tiers (except wrath with 4 and WoD with 2). The X.1 patch usually doesn't bring a new raid tier. This time it will, and 9.2 will be the 3rd raid tier. That way they don't need to prolong the expansion - 9.1 will come out late June probably, even if it won't be 100% completed (otherwise Q2 numbers for WoW will be abysmal, and they care about that), 9.2 late 2021/early 2022, and the new expansion Q3/4 2022.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Wish we'd get over abandoning the expansion early, we might of gotten a lot of stuff in Legion but don't act like people didn't feel strained during the WoD period. I don't think there's many people that want that again.

[Dracullus]

Wish we'd get over abandoning the expansion early, we might of gotten a lot of stuff in Legion but don't act like people didn't feel strained during the WoD period. I don't think there's many people that want that again.

It's pointless to continue this discussion. Blizzard won't share their plans with us and we won't see 9.2 PTR until Fall. But at least it will be clear - end boss Anduin (or someone else) = there will be 9.3, end boss Jailer = 99% there won't be 9.3 (1% for Arbiter as final boss).