Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Lady Atia]

What are the chances for Yrel to invade SL with her army as a payback for naaru's humiliation in Revendreth? I mean, if SL are the same for all realities, this could be a great opportunity to bring her back.

I doubt we will have time for filler raids this expansion. I could have seen them doing Thros/Drust aswell as AU Shattrath or Naxxramas 3.0 as first Tier after Castle Nathria similiar to Nazjatar/Mechagon, but it makes no sense to do that now that we are already attacking the Maw with the next patch. I guess we will see them again once we visit the planes of life and light in their own expansions.

[TheFirstOnes]

What kind of headcannon fanfiction is that? Sargeras was build up for several decades. Decades - until we dealt with him (and not even killed him). And now a complete nobody that has been made up 1.5 years ago should be the new supervillain and the most powerful enemy we've fought yet? Come on. Just to write this down made me cringe hard.

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Again, there's no meat to all of that in 9.1. There's no real Jailer storyline whatsoever, all of that will come after 9.1. The Covenant stuff is just exactly the same we had before and the Korthia stuff... yeah. Don't blow this up, 9.1 is not nearly as big as you make it to be.

How's it headcanon? Build up doesn't mean you're more powerful. Yes, Sargeras was built up since WC1 as the main antagonist...that we KNEW of. What we DIDN'T know was that the Void Lords existed (Which were technically built up in a way since TBC), and the Jailer existed. And the Jailer is essentially the Enemy of All and is hinted to aim for control over all existence. What we also know now is that his agents such as Denathrius and Denathrius' Dreadlords basically fooled everyone in the Cosmos, including Sargeras (Hence causing him to begin his Burning Crusade to begin with), so that only makes the bounty on his head even greater. Him being able to surpass Sargeras in power is also totally possible. You don't need to have build up to become "powerful". Look at Deathwing, the LK, or N'Zoth. They're powerful and they have a lot of build up to them, but they are surpassed by other dudes with lesser build up to them.

If you want a good example of "Build up doesn't mean more powerful" look at Dragon Ball, or a ton of the fucking comics that exist out there.

Also, what the fuck are you talking about? 9.1 is 100% about the Jailer. The ending of the Covenant Campaigns directly ties into their role against the Jailer, and is required for new sigils to be made. Meanwhile, the Jailer throughout the questline is being shown to claim practically every Sigil (Except the Arbiter's, so far), and everytime we try to stop him, we fail in different ways. For the Archon, we were too late. For the Winter Queen, the Sigil was stolen from within. From the Primus, it was from an ambush. And from Denathrius, he just gave the Sigil to Zovaal.

The main question right now is, will the final part of the Sylvanas fight be about the Covenant leaders and their new Sigils Vs the Jailer and the Old Sigils? Or will it just be the Jailer claiming the last sigil in the final phase of the fight, and the next patch is about us having the new Sigils and us POTENTIALLY (Not saying it's gonna happen) meeting the Pantheon of Life and getting them to aid our cause against the Jailer and his invasion over Reality and Life.

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bUt hEz Da Enemy Of aLl

Listen, I know it's a meme, but you do know that's not a lie, right?

[Revamp Man]

What are the chances for Yrel to invade SL with her army as a payback for naaru's humiliation in Revendreth? I mean, if SL are the same for all realities, this could be a great opportunity to bring her back.

The answer is as far as we know currently 0

The light attacked from their domain
Yrel is just wandering space in the AU

[Alanar]

not enough glory to her for Danuser
his waifu must be the final component and make the ultimate sacrifice because otherwise hes sad

People still try to make the danuser joke work lol.

Can imagine danuser with hes palm in hes face the whole day.

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What kind of headcannon fanfiction is that? Sargeras was build up for several decades. Decades - until we dealt with him (and not even killed him). And now a complete nobody that has been made up 1.5 years ago should be the new supervillain and the most powerful enemy we've fought yet? Come on. Just to write this down made me cringe hard.

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Again, there's no meat to all of that in 9.1. There's no real Jailer storyline whatsoever, all of that will come after 9.1. The Covenant stuff is just exactly the same we had before and the Korthia stuff... yeah. Don't blow this up, 9.1 is not nearly as big as you make it to be.

Yes its hard to care for him when i feels like they made him up like last year. He has almost zero built up and there is not much story to invest in.

I agree that 9.1 looks realy hollow and there are a couple of cool lore bits wich indirectly links to the jailer.. but its realy not much.

[TheFirstOnes]

not enough glory to her for Danuser
his waifu must be the final component and make the ultimate sacrifice because otherwise hes sad

Except she literally cannot harm the Jailer, and it's stated by Ion verbatim that WE'RE the main characters of WoW, and due to our experienced from the past, etc, we should be the major factors in defeating these powerful characters. Why do you think BFA ended the way it did? Or why we did so much against the Legion and Sargeras during...well...Legion?

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People still try to make the danuser joke work lol.

Can imagine danuser with hes palm in hes face the whole day.

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Yes its hard to care for him when i feels like they made him up like last year. He has almost zero built up and there is not much story to invest in.

I agree that 9.1 looks realy hollow and there are a couple of cool lore bits wich indirectly links to the jailer.. but its realy not much.

You can say it's not that cool. Hell, I agree. But to say it isn't big lore-wise or to say it's not about the Jailer is kinda dumb, no offense or anything like that.

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I doubt we will have time for filler raids this expansion. I could have seen them doing Thros/Drust aswell as AU Shattrath or Naxxramas 3.0 as first Tier after Castle Nathria similiar to Nazjatar/Mechagon, but it makes no sense to do that now that we are already attacking the Maw with the next patch. I guess we will see them again once we visit the planes of life and light in their own expansions.

We've seen Thros in BFA. Maybe it is its own realm in the Shadowlands or some shit when it's in its entirety, but we dealt with the Drust in Ardenweald already.

Also, why do you think the Planes of Life is going to be its own expansion? Maybe it can be its own expac, sure. But, from what's being implied with the Folklore Book, 9.1, and the Grimoire, and with the TIMING of these books, I wouldn't be shocked if we at least visit of the Gardens of Life in 9.2, even for a bit just so we could chill with the Pantheon of Life.

[Raetary]

Listen, I know it's a meme, but you do know that's not a lie, right?

It's not a meme.
People are making fun of you for spamming that shit all over the forum at every opportunity you get.

It's honestly getting unbearable.

[TheFirstOnes]

It's not a meme.
People are making fun of you for spamming that shit all over the forum at every opportunity you get.

It's honestly getting unbearable.

Yeah, it's almost like I have to repeat myself because people keep spewing out random shit that doesn't make sense ad-nauseum.

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And I don't repeat myself unless I need to. Nothing hard to understand here.

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The LK was a failed shenanigan.
Arthas was not under the jailers control, none of the LKs were.
Zovaal even says so during the campaign.

Yes, but to say the LK is a failed shenanigan is not really all that true either. While he failed the main task he was supposed to do, he still weakened Azeroth's defenses heavily and at the very least set up the groundwork for the Jailer's inevitable invasion. Even if the LK didn't follow up on Zovaal's plans and failed miserably in the end, the LK still, in a way, set up the groundwork for Zovaal.

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I dare say even not recent. WCIII Arthas was told by a dreadlord about Frostmourne and his was the first soul it claimed. Arthas then goes onto say "Then I'll do without one."

Then comes Wrath where Frostmourne is shattered and he sees his father's spirit again and goes "IS IT OVER?"

That is not a greeting of a soul who knowingly did these things willfully(In the same way that Garrosh did, he died screaming) Arthas acting like he just woke up really tells you and while I can't say that was the intent of the writers during Wrath. I can't just ignore the implications of Frostmourne and now the Jailer being the maker of the Lich King concept. Also add the fictional character Arthas is sorta similar to(Cough another nerdy franchise). His story is tragic, he's not without sin but once he has Frostmourne in hand, whatever happened happened weather he liked it nor not.

That is why Arthas being in the Maw feels absolutely wrong as a character end, he already didn't get fair judgement(Thanks Devos). I dunno how I would use Arthas but I certainly am not wanting to condemn his fate like Gul'dan(Kil'Jaeden as well).


Short note: That wasn't exactly how I felt during Wrath but...opinions change.

Yeah, that was when Arthas FIRST looked upon Frostmourne. The rest was his decision. Even then, Arthas was still doing some shady shit such as killing people at Stratholme cause "IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THEM FROM BEING UNDEAD HURR", and even shit like abandoning his men in Northrend, destroying their ships AKA their way home so they could only follow Arthas, straight up lying to his men and betraying his mercenaries, and leaving many of them for dead on the way to Mal'ganis. ALL OF THIS just so he could have some petty fucking vengeance.

His path to evil happened far before the "curse" of Frostmourne.

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What are the chances for Yrel to invade SL with her army as a payback for naaru's humiliation in Revendreth? I mean, if SL are the same for all realities, this could be a great opportunity to bring her back.

Stop. Yrel will return when she's important. She's not important right now. Also, the Light was NOT humiliated in Revendreth. If anything, Revendreth was humiliated.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah, that was when Arthas FIRST looked upon Frostmourne. The rest was his decision. Even then, Arthas was still doing some shady shit such as killing people at Stratholme cause "IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THEM FROM BEING UNDEAD HURR", and even shit like abandoning his men in Northrend, destroying their ships AKA their way home so they could only follow Arthas, straight up lying to his men and betraying his mercenaries, and leaving many of them for dead on the way to Mal'ganis. ALL OF THIS just so he could have some petty fucking vengeance.

His path to evil happened far before the "curse" of Frostmourne.

Stratholme is the truest essence of morally grey. Arthas could have found a different solution, but he could have just as easily failed to stop a massive outbreak that could desstroy his country.
The important thing about Arthas' actions though is that until he picked up Frostmourne he always had good intentions. His most unquestionably evil act was betraying his own mercenaries after he had them sabotage his own mission to prevent a retreat, which is awful but hardly unforgivably evil.

Alsso, its not just petty vengeance. For all he knew Mal'ganis was the source of the Scourge, and leaving him could lead to further outbreaks.

His path to becoming the Lich King is not squeaky clean, but if we just go by those actions alone then he is hardly the kind of evil sociopath that should be sent straight to the Maw, he is just your run of hte mill "good intentions, bad methods" guy that lost his way over time. Characters far more evil have had redemption stories far easier than Arthas is likely to.

[Revamp Man]

People still try to make the danuser joke work lol.

Can imagine danuser with hes palm in hes face the whole day.

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Yes its hard to care for him when i feels like they made him up like last year. He has almost zero built up and there is not much story to invest in.

I agree that 9.1 looks realy hollow and there are a couple of cool lore bits wich indirectly links to the jailer.. but its realy not much.

its not even a joke
the moment people start pointing out that she has become garrosh 2.0
"well its not really the same and she cares about her people"
she calls her people nothing
"well its all a part of her plan"
shows that she is working for the enemy of everything
"she made a deal with him in legion for her people"
she literally serves him
"well its part of her plan"
she tries to keep us from stopping him from destroying everything
"well its maybe only a part of her soul"

[Aeluron Lightsong]

His path to becoming the Lich King is not squeaky clean, but if we just go by those actions alone then he is hardly the kind of evil sociopath that should be sent straight to the Maw, he is just your run of hte mill "good intentions, bad methods" guy that lost his way over time. Characters far more evil have had redemption stories far easier than Arthas is likely to.

Thats my point, up until Frostmourne he did some questionable things or handled them not in a way that helped. Picking up Frostmourne is when while from the Alliance's point of view made him evil and a massive traitor but thats not the entire picture hence why Arthas deserves redemption(More then the grumpy Banshee Queen anyways but...thats all presuming the whole Veressa short story is true).

[TheFirstOnes]

Stratholme is the truest essence of morally grey. Arthas could have found a different solution, but he could have just as easily failed to stop a massive outbreak that could desstroy his country.
The important thing about Arthas' actions though is that until he picked up Frostmourne he always had good intentions. His most unquestionably evil act was betraying his own mercenaries after he had them sabotage his own mission to prevent a retreat, which is awful but hardly unforgivably evil.

Alsso, its not just petty vengeance. For all he knew Mal'ganis was the source of the Scourge, and leaving him could lead to further outbreaks.

His path to becoming the Lich King is not squeaky clean, but if we just go by those actions alone then he is hardly the kind of evil sociopath that should be sent straight to the Maw, he is just your run of hte mill "good intentions, bad methods" guy that lost his way over time. Characters far more evil have had redemption stories far easier than Arthas is likely to.

I guess...

Even Megatron from Transformers Prime, as evil as he was, gained a change of heart after dealing with oppression himself and forced service.

[Varodoc]

bUt hEz Da Enemy Of aLl

You forgot "OMG OMG HE'S BOUNDLESS COSMIC+ TIER!!!!!"

But really the Janitor doesn't have a character so it shouldn't be a surprise that the 20 Janitor fans worldwide are just focusing on his "Zomg power level!"

[TheFirstOnes]

You forgot "OMG OMG HE'S BOUNDLESS COSMIC+ TIER!!!!!"

But really the Janitor doesn't have a character so it shouldn't be a surprise that the 20 Janitor fans worldwide are just focusing on his "Zomg power level!"

Ever thought that maybe Evil should just be...evil?

[Sondrelk]

I guess...

Even Megatron from Transformers Prime, as evil as he was, gained a change of heart after dealing with oppression himself and forced service.

The thing about Arthas is that aside from a few isolated cases like the book about him he was never actually shown as completely monstrous by his own will. Even WC3 TFT paints him putting on the helm at teh end in a somber light as we are supposed to wonder how everything went so wrong, hardly the ending for a morally vacuos villain. Not to mention that WotLK ended with the sad music and all again showing he was not competely in control.

Arthas was always prime material for a redemption arc precisely because he was never completely good or completely bad. If he was either his redemption would either be pointless or hollow.
The best redemption stories always come from people that have good intentions that go awry, and in that regard Arthas' fall from grace is a prime example of how to do that right.
Really the biggest sore point is on whether giving Arthas too much focus could undermine his redemption similarly to what happened in Legion with Illidan.

Besides, in a sense his biggest evil act in hindsight might have been raising Sylvanas, which set off a chain of events that led to Sylvanas allying with the Jailer to destroy the universe. And while it might be a bit iffy to have his gain redemption by stopping Sylvanas it is still a fitting end in a way.

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Ever thought that maybe Evil should just be...evil?

There are ways to have morally bankrupt villains have depth.
You don't need a sobstory for him or anything like that, just something more than him just standing there menacingly threatening to destroy the world. They could at least have given him the WotLK Arthas treatment with him being more directly involved in everything.
As it stands his interesting points begin and end with the people under him like Sylvanas or Arthas, not because he himself is anything special.

[Varodoc]

Lol. Just because a character is evil doesn't mean they can't have a personality, ideology, and motivations. Cersei Lannister is evil and yet she's more psychologically complex than all Warcraft villains combined. Thinking that evil people can't be complex is a silly logic.

The Janitor is just a trash villain, that's all. He's not even entertaining like Gul'dan, who at least had a personality.

One thing is for certain, people will remember Shadowlands as the expansion where Sylvanas Windrunner was defeated. They won't even remember the Janitor.

[TheFirstOnes]

Lol. Just because a character is evil doesn't mean they can't have a personality, ideology, and motivations. Cersei Lannister is evil and yet she's more psychologically complex than all Warcraft villains combined.

The Janitor is just a trash villain, that's all. He's not even entertaining like Gul'dan, who at least had a personality.

One thing is for certain, people will remember Shadowlands as the expansion where Sylvanas Windrunner was defeated. They won't even remember the Janitor.

Gul'dan was literally just evil incarnate. The only story was that "he was bullied and felt powerless, and he wanted power so he could be the top dog". The only reason you like him more is because A. He caused the Horde essentially with Mannoroth. And B. He had 2 Expansions of build up with his AU self.

The Jailer is really no different than Gul'dan or Palpatine, in that he's evil for the sake of power. Every other guys is a force of nature with a belief system. Sargeras is probably the only other Cosmic guy that's "evil", and he's portrayed as a big dumb idiot now.

Cersei is a complex character who is evil for different reasons. She is no more comparable to guys like Palpatine and Gul'dan than Sylvanas, or Devos is to the Jailer.

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Also, Cersei isn't really too complex. I'd argue Varian's dynamic with Anduin's far more complex.

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Kinda doesn't help you say this, yet you fanboy over the Void, and we don't even know who tf the Void Lords actually are yet outside of the shit the Titans supposedly know.

[Varodoc]

Gul'dan was literally just evil incarnate. The only story was that "he was bullied and felt powerless, and he wanted power so he could be the top dog". The only reason you like him more is because A. He caused the Horde essentially with Mannoroth. And B. He had 2 Expansions of build up with his AU self.

The Jailer is really no different than Gul'dan or Palpatine, in that he's evil for the sake of power. Every other guys is a force of nature with a belief system. Sargeras is probably the only other Cosmic guy that's "evil", and he's portrayed as a big dumb idiot now.

Cersei is a complex character who is evil for different reasons. She is no more comparable to guys like Palpatine and Gul'dan than Sylvanas, or Devos is to the Jailer.

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Also, Cersei isn't really too complex. I'd argue Varian's dynamic with Anduin's far more complex.

You still don't get it.

You can be evil and funny at the same time.

Gul'dan is funny. Palpatine is funny. The Janitor is not funny, he's just cringe. If anything the only funny thing about the Janitor are his nipple memes. Some legacy for a main villain.

Also, LOL at claiming that Anduin is more complex than Cersei, you're certainly funnier than the Janitor.

Kinda doesn't help you say this, yet you fanboy over the Void

I don't.

[TheFirstOnes]

You still don't get it.

You can be evil and funny at the same time.

Gul'dan is funny. Palpatine is funny. The Janitor is not funny, he's just cringe. If anything the only funny thing about the Janitor are his nipple memes. Some legacy for a main villain.

Also, LOL at claiming that Anduin is more complex than Cersei, you're certainly funnier than the Janitor.

How is Gul'dan and Palpatine funny? They're sadistic as fuck. Hell, Palpatine is legit Star Wars' Satan.

[Varodoc]

One thing is for certain, the next expansion will have a better villain than the Janitor.

[TheFirstOnes]

One thing is for certain, the next expansion will have a better villain than the Janitor.

We don't even know who the main Villain is next...

For all we know, it's some random off Life god if Blizzard does this whole "1 expac for every Cosmic Realm" shit, which imo is not going to happen.