Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Kiivar86]

Either make LFR gear decent for casual players or just get rid of it and make normal dungeons PUGable.

Normal dungeons already are PUGable though?

[Revamp Man]

Nuke Mythic+ from orbit. Make normal dungeons and heroic dungeons more difficulty. Make challenge mode dungeons for Transmogs like WoD. You should never, EVER need voice chat and need to be a min/max god to advance in dungeons. Guilds are for raiding, NOT dungeons. Challenge mode dungeons can be for people who disagree with that and want to smash their heads on a wall.

Make PVE gear useless in PVP and vica versa. I had no problems grinding out 2 sets of gear.

Either make LFR gear decent for casual players or just get rid of it and make normal dungeons PUGable. Heroic raids cn be for intermediate guilds and mythic raids can be fore hardcore guilds.

i think heroic dungeons need removed and keep the m+ dungeon system making the old CM dungeon rewards at
+5
+10
+15
which they started with the dungeon ports available at +20

as for making lfr gear decent for casual players...how is it not??
some lfr gear even at 213 wont be replaced for the casual players and you get access to normal raid gear multiple times per month

[Makabreska]

Normal dungeons already are PUGable though?

Normal and Hc are perfectly puggable, this guy just wants normals to be even easer.

[Raetary]

You should never, EVER need voice chat

Yeah, no thanks.
So long as it pertains to mythic only dungeons rather than M+, i want MORE mechanics that encourage the use of chat/voice chat in dungeons.

Some of the most fun i've had in the last few years was discussing tacts and actively engaging with my groups doing Kara, Mechagon and now Tazavesh.

[Lady Atia]

Yeah, no thanks.
So long as it pertains to mythic only dungeons rather than M+, i want MORE mechanics that encourage the use of chat/voice chat in dungeons.

Some of the most fun i've had in the last few years was discussing tacts and actively engaging with my groups doing Kara, Mechagon and now Tazavesh.

Lets be honest - you don't even need voice chat for Tazavesh, it's so much easier than Mechagon Hardmode 0 Deaths.

[Kiivar86]

Normal and Hc are perfectly puggable, this guy just wants normals to be even easer.

Yeah I was confused by his statement because they're stupid easy to pug. Hell, they've been easy to pug since release (just had to be a bit careful at times). At this point you can blaze through them no problem.

Any easier and it'd be soloable (well, more so, I imagine there's some who can solo it just fine right now).

[Raetary]

Lets be honest - you don't even need voice chat for Tazavesh, it's so much easier than Mechagon Hardmode 0 Deaths.

It's not a necessity, but some people prefer using the voice chat.

And usually, once VC starts being utilized it stays on for the rest of the dungeon.
Which is good as it encourages people to socialize.

[Lady Atia]

It's not a necessity, but some people prefer using the voice chat.
And usually, once VC starts being utilized it stays on for the rest of the dungeon.

Yeah true - I didn't say voice chat is bad haha. But the person above cried about "the need to use voice chat" and I just said, actually, you don't even need voice chat for Tazavesh.

[Le Conceptuel]

I watched recent Preach video and honestly I'm pissed. He put narration that Blizzard actively destroy game for people like him (mythic raiders). Blizzard did terrible mistake in Shadowlands.. but it was LISTENING to people like Preach.

Who told Torghast has amazing gameplay (and in Alpha you climbed like 70 floors, not 5)? Who told that "loot should matter" will be amazing? Who was against ANY grind for power outside raids? Who praised 8.3 world content design? (Hell, Preach even praised early WoD, but that's ancient times).

During Alpha/Beta streamers like him complained about 1 thing: covenant choice. In 9.0 conduict power. In 9.1 shards of dominations. Later Many people will disagree with me, but compared main SL issues (gear/power wall and making activities outside organized stuff pointless or cosmetic only) - these are laughable at best.

Not to mention driving this already crazy community nuts with speculations from ass like 9.0 coming in 2021 (before Covid exploded) or 9.1 coming "earliest" in August after watching just clips from Blizzconline. I know, I know, many of these falls on people that treat streamers like authority.

I hope it will be lesson for Blizzard (or anyone running WoW in the future in case current Blizz won't survive) - never listen to people with narrow view if you discuss main game. You will lose many of main crowd and tryhards will burn out sooner or later anyway. Go crazy like you did in Legion, don't try to polish game until there is nothing left.

(And funny thing, Preach is/was still WoW influencer that was 1000x more constructive that regular drama queen like Asmon or Bellurar, so I still respect him even after this rant.)

Preach is literally no different from them, though. Please don't shill for streamers. Besides, we have way more important issues to focus on, Blizzard-wise.

[Revamp Man]

I watched recent Preach video and honestly I'm pissed. He put narration that Blizzard actively destroy game for people like him (mythic raiders). Blizzard did terrible mistake in Shadowlands.. but it was LISTENING to people like Preach.

Who told Torghast has amazing gameplay (and in Alpha you climbed like 70 floors, not 5)? Who told that "loot should matter" will be amazing? Who was against ANY grind for power outside raids? Who praised 8.3 world content design? (Hell, Preach even praised early WoD, but that's ancient times).

During Alpha/Beta streamers like him complained about 1 thing: covenant choice. In 9.0 conduict power. In 9.1 shards of dominations. Later Many people will disagree with me, but compared main SL issues (gear/power wall and making activities outside organized stuff pointless or cosmetic only) - these are laughable at best.

Not to mention driving this already crazy community nuts with speculations from ass like 9.0 coming in 2021 (before Covid exploded) or 9.1 coming "earliest" in August after watching just clips from Blizzconline. I know, I know, many of these falls on people that treat streamers like authority.

I hope it will be lesson for Blizzard (or anyone running WoW in the future in case current Blizz won't survive) - never listen to people with narrow view if you discuss main game. You will lose many of main crowd and tryhards will burn out sooner or later anyway. Go crazy like you did in Legion, don't try to polish game until there is nothing left.

(And funny thing, Preach is/was still WoW influencer that was 1000x more constructive that regular drama queen like Asmon or Bellurar, so I still respect him even after this rant.)

"blizz listened to people like preach which is why they made systems that went against what preach and players like him wanted"

alpha torghast was fun
what we got was garbage

loot mattering isnt asking for a .09% drop chance or 1000 systems attached to them

i dont think anyone here can point out a good thing about the covenant restrictions or conduit power in terms of gameplay


you seem to forget that it was the casual masses that praised covenants and the new torghast just like they praised the problem systems in BfA
trying to blame players like preach when in reality its the players who stick to forums is dishonest and you know it

[Dracullus]

"blizz listened to people like preach which is why they made systems that went against what preach and players like him wanted"

alpha torghast was fun
what we got was garbage

loot mattering isnt asking for a .09% drop chance or 1000 systems attached to them

i dont think anyone here can point out a good thing about the covenant restrictions or conduit power in terms of gameplay


you seem to forget that it was the casual masses that praised covenants and the new torghast just like they praised the problem systems in BfA
trying to blame players like preach when in reality its the players who stick to forums is dishonest and you know it

I don't see how community would react positively on grinding 70 floors of Torghast, but ok, I give you that, it was different in Alpha.

My main point still stand, SL took sharp turn to please mythic raiders (no titanforging, no AP, no random lego), which made them lost many casual players - no one say they love that things, but it keeps people in game. And after this people like Preach have audacity to tell they quiting because Blizzard doesn't listen to them.

(Not to mention usual rose tinted glasess and acting like bugs or mistakes started in BfA.)

Covenant sucks for people that want match their favourite cosmetics with best numbers, but it's irrelevant issue from raider POV - meta usually don't change often and if it does, covenant reroll is very, very easy. It's not Legion launch situation when they had to make 2nd character.

Truth is he just got bored and tired with WoW. But it's always easier to blame game than asking yourself if taking no breaks for 15 years is smart idea.

[Revamp Man]

I don't see how community would react positively on grinding 70 floors of Torghast, but ok, I give you that, it was different in Alpha.

My main point still stand, SL took sharp turn to please mythic raiders (no titanforging, no AP, no random lego), which made them lost many casual players - no one say they love that things, but it keeps people in game. And after this people like Preach have audacity to tell they quiting because Blizzard doesn't listen to them.

(Not to mention usual rose tinted glasess and acting like bugs or mistakes started in BfA.)

Covenant sucks for people that want match their favourite cosmetics with best numbers, but it's irrelevant issue from raider POV - meta usually don't change often and if it does, covenant reroll is very, very easy. It's not Legion launch situation when they had to make 2nd character.

Truth is he just got bored and tired with WoW. But it's always easier to blame game than asking yourself if taking no breaks for 15 years is smart idea.

ok tell me exactly what was done in shadowlands to please mythic raiders

[Dracullus]

ok tell me exactly what was done in shadowlands to please mythic raiders

You're serious? I just did. But I'll repeat:

- no titanforging, you do only relevant PVE content
- no grind outside instances, all 'chores' (chores for people interested only in raiding, content for everyone else) take like 2-3 hours per week
- very easy catch up
- SL systems are either timegating (Renown) or drops from instances you do anyway

It's not 1:1 with WoD (thank God), but very close. Compare it to legiondaries, grinding Maw of Souls for AP, grinding islands for Azerite, Benthic roulette, corruption.

[Lady Atia]

I don't see how community would react positively on grinding 70 floors of Torghast, but ok, I give you that, it was different in Alpha.

My main point still stand, SL took sharp turn to please mythic raiders (no titanforging, no AP, no random lego), which made them lost many casual players - no one say they love that things, but it keeps people in game. And after this people like Preach have audacity to tell they quiting because Blizzard doesn't listen to them.

(Not to mention usual rose tinted glasess and acting like bugs or mistakes started in BfA.)

Covenant sucks for people that want match their favourite cosmetics with best numbers, but it's irrelevant issue from raider POV - meta usually don't change often and if it does, covenant reroll is very, very easy. It's not Legion launch situation when they had to make 2nd character.

Truth is he just got bored and tired with WoW. But it's always easier to blame game than asking yourself if taking no breaks for 15 years is smart idea.

Why does no titanforging help Mythic Raiders? Because they don't need to pug heroic anymore? That's laughable. Clearing the lesser difficulties takes 1-2 hours max. And it also helped newcomers because people with gear had a reason to go back to old raids instead of pushing people into selling ridiculous easy stuff like normal or even heroic. Same goes for the legendary system - honestly they should have done it like in Legion but instead of the legendary you get a token and can buy your BIS leggi instantly. After that you get random legendaries or more tokens.

[Dracullus]

Same goes for the legendary system - honestly they should have done it like in Legion but instead of the legendary you get a token and can buy your BIS leggi instantly. After that you get random legendaries or more tokens.

Cool, you described system that existed neither in Legion or SL. When we describe differences between expansions, let's stick to systems that were actually implemented.

I know we like to argue here a lot, but it's self evident that SL is closer to WoD's "raid or die" than Legion/BfA "grind to die". 9.1 took few steps back, but still required 'chores' are nowhere near 7.0-8.2 era.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Cool, you described system that existed neither in Legion or SL. When we describe differences between expansions, let's stick to systems that were actually implemented.

I know we like to argue here a lot, but it's self evident that SL is closer to WoD's "raid or die" than Legion/BfA "grind to die". 9.1 took few steps back, but still required 'chores' are nowhere near 7.0-8.2 era.

He just said that he wants a token for a legendary instead of a random one for the first. The point of the whole thing was to modify legion's version and take out one of the biggest criticisms of the system.

Titanforging can stay in it's grave though, there was just no reason to make loot ultra rare AND keep master looter disabled. Without these two points the loot system (sans legendary token scheme) would have been fine in 9.0.

[Dracullus]

He just said that he wants a token for a legendary instead of a random one for the first. The point of the whole thing was to modify legion's version and take out one of the biggest criticisms of the system.

And I said it's non argument when we compare Legion and SL. Actual expansions, not SL and ideas for better Legion.

It doesn't mean I'm against it. Even more, I put similar idea during Legion. But at this time Legion was current=hated expansion, 90% of this forum wanted legendary system to burn in fire, you could crap post on half page how to improve legiondaries and AP, no one gave a shit.

Titanforging can stay in it's grave though, there was just no reason to make loot ultra rare AND keep master looter disabled. Without these two points the loot system (sans legendary token scheme) would have been fine in 9.0.

So now master looter is cause of all problems like it was warforging/titanforging pre-SL? People were pissed raid drops are rare, your solution is to keep them rare and give power of distributing them to potential douche.

It would be another thing that improves life of mythic raiders (they have higher level of coordination, leader can distribute gear in way that give best output), but make life of casual (that just pugs or raid normal/heroic in less coordinated guild) much, much worse. So we're talking about increasing main SL problem.

[Lady Atia]

She just said that she wants a token for a legendary instead of a random one for the first. The point of the whole thing was to modify legion's version and take out one of the biggest criticisms of the system.

Titanforging can stay in it's grave though, there was just no reason to make loot ultra rare AND keep master looter disabled. Without these two points the loot system (sans legendary token scheme) would have been fine in 9.0.

I'm still unsure why people want Master Loot back. Yes, it was ok for guilds but it still led to loot drama. The only people who enjoyed ML were raidleads who could feed gear to specific people. Guilds can still use a Loot Council for stuff that no one needs. That said I agree that ultra rare loot was a big mistake - it just feels like an excuse to have people farm the raid now that titanforged is gone. But as I said earlier, unlike Legion/BfA it does a horrible job at making people run lower difficulties or older raids of the same expansion, so you have less people willing to help newer players in pugs for free. Or maybe I just have rose tinted glasses of Legion pugs for leggis/trinkets. I actually liked to run chilled EN/NH during Tomb - in comparison no one runs Castle Nathria anymore. It's basically dead content after one season lol.

[Revamp Man]

You're serious? I just did. But I'll repeat:

- no titanforging, you do only relevant PVE content
- no grind outside instances, all 'chores' (chores for people interested only in raiding, content for everyone else) take like 2-3 hours per week
- very easy catch up
- SL systems are either timegating (Renown) or drops from instances you do anyway

It's not 1:1 with WoD (thank God), but very close. Compare it to legiondaries, grinding Maw of Souls for AP, grinding islands for Azerite, Benthic roulette, corruption.

1. Removal of titanforging doesn’t harm casual players. It makes any gear they get from things like lfr and grinding feel more rewarding

2. There are grinds outside of instances…I’m thinking you heard the phrase chore-ghast and adopted it because
Venari
Research
Reps
Conduit tokens from vaults
Valor
All grinds

3. Easy catch up is designed for literally everyone I mean it’s not mythic raiders whining about the fact they have to do dungeons for renown…

4. Time gates are not something that caters to mythic raiders. The preach video that you whined about points out it doesn’t feel good to be drip fed story on a weekly lock out

You seem to take these things that high end players complain about and claim they asked for it
Alpha torghast was designed at one point to not give rewards past floor 18 but it got changed
Covenants and time gating has been the biggest complaint from players who enjoy playing multiple specs and they got told by these forums and others how “that’s wrong these systems are great and meaningful” and when you got proven wrong once again you turn it around.

It like you want to knock over a shelf and your babysitter says “don’t” and your parents say you can so you hurt yourself and the babysitter and say the babysitter made you do it

- - - Updated - - -

I'm still unsure why people want Master Loot back. Yes, it was ok for guilds but it still led to loot drama. The only people who enjoyed ML were raidleads who could feed gear to specific people. Guilds can still use a Loot Council for stuff that no one needs. That said I agree that ultra rare loot was a big mistake - it just feels like an excuse to have people farm the raid now that titanforged is gone. But as I said earlier, unlike Legion/BfA it does a horrible job at making people run lower difficulties or older raids of the same expansion, so you have less people willing to help newer players in pugs for free. Or maybe I just have rose tinted glasses of Legion pugs for leggis/trinkets. I actually liked to run chilled EN/NH during Tomb - in comparison no one runs Castle Nathria anymore. It's basically dead content after one season lol.

Master looter gave full control over the loot
No loot went to waste
In legion it required a guild group which made it perfect

Currently you have
Forced personal loot
Ilvl restrictions
Slot restrictions

So if I’m on my WW and a 2h drops for me that is a downgrade because I DW but it’s ilvl is higher than another 2h I have in my bags I CAN’T trade it

If I wanna swap loot spec to get a healer trinket for one of our healers…I have to hope I have two of an equal ilvl even if I’ll never use it

Same for jewelry

If I swap loot spec and get a healer off hand I can’t trade it if it’s a higher ilvl

The myth of the system being widely abused was debunked the same day because while you heard Jimmy talk about how he was cheated out of loot you had Timmy come in and show he was lying

The “trials deserve loot too” line was also debunked because trials get loot from every farm boss and just because they whine about wanting the trinket from the boss they were in for 5 tries out of the 50 and it went to the better player who also happened to be there since vanilla it was “they give it to their friends

[Cosmic Janitor]

I'm still unsure why people want Master Loot back. Yes, it was ok for guilds but it still led to loot drama. The only people who enjoyed ML were raidleads who could feed gear to specific people. Guilds can still use a Loot Council for stuff that no one needs. That said I agree that ultra rare loot was a big mistake - it just feels like an excuse to have people farm the raid now that titanforged is gone. But as I said earlier, unlike Legion/BfA it does a horrible job at making people run lower difficulties or older raids of the same expansion, so you have less people willing to help newer players in pugs for free. Or maybe I just have rose tinted glasses of Legion pugs for leggis/trinkets. I actually liked to run chilled EN/NH during Tomb - in comparison no one runs Castle Nathria anymore. It's basically dead content after one season lol.

The thing is "that no one needs"is differntly defined by players and Blizzard. Blizzard goes strictly by iLvl, which often is just flat out wrong, not to mention certain edge cases like 2h weapons and 1h weapons. In Nathria I got a bunch of miniscule upgrades that were barely 3 ilvl better, but I couldn't trade them so someone who would have gained 16 with BiS stats, because Blizzard deemed my fraaction of a fraction of a percent upgrade more important than the need of someone else in the group. Also while there are shit GM/RLs out there, many more find dealing with loot to be an utter drag.

As for having people engage in lower level content, imho the FFXIV approach is the correct one, daily roulettes that give bonuses the first time with rewards, usually currencies, that can be spend on alt spec progression. I mean why do you get like an utterly pathetic 35 anima token for helping in a daily heroic? Queueable content in WoW exists, but it always feels like Blizzard doesn't want it to. I agree though that the seasonal approach of WoW is among he most wasteful development practices I've seen in the industry. Others effectively reset each patch as well, but it feels like WoW goes out of it's way to invalidate old content.