1. #6341
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The thing with flying is that the problem isn't going to be fixed unless Blizzard stands their ground and makes the controversial change.

    Yes it would lead to massive outcry, just as it did in WoD. But if it is something that will make the game better in the long term then it should be done regardless.

    Besides, the point of a potential revamp is to balance flying in such a way that the only option to design around it is to remove it. Or at the very least make it less obvious that there is such a drastic flip from flying to no flying.
    And as we say the outcry was enough to make them reverse. I would imagine drastic changes would result in similar outcry.

    As someone else said, the cat is out of the bag here. You can't go back on how it is. The time to have thought about this was when TBC was in development, not now, after its been an established function for, what, 14 years?

  2. #6342
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    It would still be early, because usually this happens with the last patch during the following content draught.

    I also never doubted that they could use if just for whatever they want. Just that the the way it is currently structured is mostly focused on covenant unlocks and a new system would probably be inherently flawed if they had to time gate another 40 unlocks and more via it. Also Blizzard usually abandons core features in favor of new ones during the last patch. Either way, even if they keep the covenants going in 9.2, as I said, I'm not stocked for more conduit unlocks and more goddamn followers that takes ages to level. :/

    As for the last part, the how isn't an issue imho. Obviously reusing the set is the answer. I'm more concered about Blizzard's capability to realize that m+ loot, while powerfull for the average joe, is also boring beyond hope for the duration of an entire expansion. Regrinding the same trinkets isn't exactly stellar entertainment. On top of that raid sets working in M+ always leads the feeling of being woefully underequipped for the task at hand.
    The renown system is inherently reward based, so all it would need are rewards, no matter how minor.
    Soulbinds are one thing, but there is also questlines, one time rewards, followers for mission table. It could give a recolor of a generic set, or even pets.
    Not to mention that I could just as easily give rewards for whatever new quest hub.
    Maybe renown 100 gives a vendor that lets you exchange anima for unique rewards, or renown 90 gives a movement speed upgrade.

    That is why I love the renown system. It's so incredibly versatile as a reward system.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #6343
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    If flyings only purpose is unlocking new areas then that could just as easily be achieved with new teleports or flight paths.

    There is no middle ground currently between flying not being available, and flying invalidating most of the ground content. This is why a revamp is needed, to allow Blizzard room to create middle ground options.

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    That wouldn't make flying viable, that would make flying required. And it wouldn't be needed for the content either, it would just invalidate the little ground content there is.

    Consider for instance the last expansion that tried melding the two, MoP.
    Sure the ridge that you needed flying to unlock was neat in that it somewhat organically segmented the zone, but the content placed there didn't escape the inherent problems of flying. That quests there looked the same as all quests with flying available. You descend down directly on the exact enemy you want, avoiding everything around it, kill it move by up then move on to the next.

    As I said before, there is no middle ground between flying and no flying.
    Compare to other games, a middle ground might be that flying is not available near enemies, so as to prevent the exact thing I said, it might be momentum based to prevent just being able to take off from anywhere. It might make it inconvenient to land just anywhere to prevent the issue of landing directly on your objective.

    Content based around flying can work in wow, just not with this version of flying.
    But the ground content is already trivial
    WoD tried making difficult world content and it got wrecked during the first patch because unless it scales that’s what happens

    Flying doesn’t really take away from my play style because I spent 6 months on the ground and I’m over it.

    They used to design content with flying in mind and that was fun now it is just kind of a cheat code but it’s also something you need to play the content to get

  4. #6344
    Wonder if we'll get any news or PTR today? I know they don't usually do this on Monday, but who knows?

  5. #6345
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiivar86 View Post
    And as we say the outcry was enough to make them reverse. I would imagine drastic changes would result in similar outcry.

    As someone else said, the cat is out of the bag here. You can't go back on how it is. The time to have thought about this was when TBC was in development, not now, after its been an established function for, what, 14 years?
    WoD changed stuff. Just because we are able to fly halfway through the expansion doesn't stop the game from having improved by leaps and bounds in open world content since the developers no longer has to immediately consider flying superceding other movement options.
    Suramar is a zone that is tangible proof of the benefits reaped from the massively unpopular choice in WoD.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #6346
    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Wu View Post
    Wonder if we'll get any news or PTR today? I know they don't usually do this on Monday, but who knows?
    If they're really desperate, maybe.

    But otherwise I'm guessing Wednesday-Thursday.

  7. #6347
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Changes to anything will lead to complaints. However as WoD proved, if the system is irreparable then you just need to accept the outrage to make the game better long term.

    After all, if Blizzard hadn't changed flying in WoD then we would probably not have gotten better ground content, nor would we likely see the return of a more vibrant open world content variety like we saw in Legion with Suramar.
    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we’d all have a merry Christmas

    They didn’t stick to their guns in WoD they outright redesigned the game to allow flying because taking away the enjoyment of some players for others to feel fair and equal has never helped this game at all and we have proof of that right now in SL lol

  8. #6348
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Changes to anything will lead to complaints. However as WoD proved, if the system is irreparable then you just need to accept the outrage to make the game better long term.

    After all, if Blizzard hadn't changed flying in WoD then we would probably not have gotten better ground content, nor would we likely see the return of a more vibrant open world content variety like we saw in Legion with Suramar.
    I completely disagree with that. There are plenty of ways around flying for the very few minor things that would be disturbed by it. The vast majority is just farming, which should simply be addressed by nerfing that damned sky golem (and druids) into the ground. The main purpose of the overworld is questing and at endgame to do WQs, and there it's just wasting more of our time getting around, to the point that they have to pepper the zones with flight points awkwardly standing alone in the middle of nowhere.

    It seems like you desperately try to sacifice flying because you somehow think it's the big thing that is stopping your precious would revamp. The few treasures could be handled in a differnt manner like the Revendreth/Korthia puzzles as well as more indoor locations.
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  9. #6349
    I'm still wondering if 9.1.5 will have no heritage armor at all, or if they simply haven't mentioned it yet? I'm not naive enough to assume the latter at this point.

  10. #6350
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I'm still wondering if 9.1.5 will have no heritage armor at all, or if they simply haven't mentioned it yet? I'm not naive enough to assume the latter at this point.
    They'd have mentioned it in the patch preview if heritage sets were coming.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  11. #6351
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    They'd have mentioned it in the patch preview if heritage sets were coming.
    I think so too.

    Rip heritage armor.

  12. #6352
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    They'd have mentioned it in the patch preview if heritage sets were coming.
    Not exactly. The big comment list was stuff that had to do with player feedback, and the first list was incomplete.

    There will clearly be SOME new content, as small as it is.

  13. #6353
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Not exactly. The big comment list was stuff that had to do with player feedback, and the first list was incomplete.
    I do think heritage armor is one of those things they'd use as an advertising feature, though.

  14. #6354
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I completely disagree with that. There are plenty of ways around flying for the very few minor things that would be disturbed by it. The vast majority is just farming, which should simply be addressed by nerfing that damned sky golem (and druids) into the ground. The main purpose of the overworld is questing and at endgame to do WQs, and there it's just wasting more of our time getting around, to the point that they have to pepper the zones with flight points awkwardly standing alone in the middle of nowhere.

    It seems like you desperately try to sacifice flying because you somehow think it's the big thing that is stopping your precious would revamp. The few treasures could be handled in a differnt manner like the Revendreth/Korthia puzzles as well as more indoor locations.
    The problem with flying is twofold. One is the constant cycle of dismount/mount that ends up plaguing all content flying is available in.
    The second is how powerful flying is in general. There is no downside to choosing to use flying over other movement options when it is available. It has the same ability to dodge enemies given by running, it is faster than ground mounts, and it is more versatile then flight points.

    A smaller niggle is also that the mechanics of flying are nonexistent. There isn't any inherent mechanic that can be used with it to do fun stuff. You just mount up, reach max speed instantly with full 3D movement, and when you want to stop you can do so instantly.
    Consider this is contrast to GTA and other sandbox games in which flight is a joy in and of itself. Or games in which challenges can rise organically from the mechanics themselves.

    Flying in wow is when the open world content ceases to have any complexity, it all ends up boiling down to the same fly to objective dismount/mount cycle that it always does. No unique zone abilities, no need to understand the geography, no real need for utility abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I do think heritage armor is one of those things they'd use as an advertising feature, though.
    It most definitely is. It's a new and shiny concept art and in-game renders they can use as centerpieces of any reveal.
    Unless Blizzard seriously considers being able to skip the Maw intro sequence a more exciting feature then heritage armor is unlikely to be in the patch.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #6355
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I do think heritage armor is one of those things they'd use as an advertising feature, though.
    If they are hiding it it’s probably because they didn’t want to spoil the first content list with people going “bloo bloo why not MY race”. Or it’s a reveal today.

  16. #6356
    Doubt the PTR will be today but who knows, could be a nice surprise if they're eager to get it out fast.

  17. #6357
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The problem with flying is twofold. One is the constant cycle of dismount/mount that ends up plaguing all content flying is available in.
    The second is how powerful flying is in general. There is no downside to choosing to use flying over other movement options when it is available. It has the same ability to dodge enemies given by running, it is faster than ground mounts, and it is more versatile then flight points.

    A smaller niggle is also that the mechanics of flying are nonexistent. There isn't any inherent mechanic that can be used with it to do fun stuff. You just mount up, reach max speed instantly with full 3D movement, and when you want to stop you can do so instantly.
    Consider this is contrast to GTA and other sandbox games in which flight is a joy in and of itself. Or games in which challenges can rise organically from the mechanics themselves.

    Flying in wow is when the open world content ceases to have any complexity, it all ends up boiling down to the same fly to objective dismount/mount cycle that it always does. No unique zone abilities, no need to understand the geography, no real need for utility abilities.
    If you take flying away then the same is true for ground mounts, they are just superior in every way. The ranking just shifts to the next in line.

    You can also easily introduce downsides to it, as they did back in TBC, they just forgot about it somehow..
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  18. #6358
    I never played GW2 much but didn't that game have a nice flying system? As far as I'm aware (I could be totally wrong here) they had restrictions put in place on flight itself, rather than just outright removing it as a feature like WoW tried to do.

    At this point you really can't remove flying, it's too integral to the playerbase. I say this as someone who is completely ambivalent towards this issue. You'd need to look at the flight mechanic itself and limit it in some way that solves the core issues with flying in regards to affecting the world design and also probably getting rid of pathfinder as a trade-off as well.

  19. #6359
    I don't even think flight needs to be limited, with the Dragon Isles potentially being flying islands, you can add some really cool verticality to the zones. Also, I think flying should be in the .0 patch or the .1 patch at the latest, because once you are max level for a few weeks you experienced all there is to experience on the ground. Which is why I like the renown reward version of flying, it just needed to come sooner.

  20. #6360
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    If you take flying away then the same is true for ground mounts, they are just superior in every way. The ranking just shifts to the next in line.

    You can also easily introduce downsides to it, as they did back in TBC, they just forgot about it somehow..
    Not really, a ground mount just makes you faster but it does not allow you to completely skip over ground content.

    You still have to navigate around terrain and the enemies in it.
    Not to mention that certain mobs have stun and slow mechanics or just straight up daze and dismount you.

    Excluding flying, they are not the most superior travel option either.
    If you need to travel long distances you'd take a portal or FP instead, and if the zone has accessible elevation, Gliders are vastly more superior than mounts.

    And for very short distances, i would definitely say its a lot more worthwhile to just angelic feather/hook/blink/jump, etc. over than spend 1.5 seconds mounting up.
    Last edited by Raetary; 2021-08-30 at 01:34 PM.


    Formerly known as Arafal

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