Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Dracullus]

In Legion, the future looked bright for WoW, especially given how much of an improvement it was over WoD and the amount of communication coming from Blizzard - people were more willing to forgive the devs for these "transgressions". Can we say the same now, given the state of SL and the bad taste of BFA?

Lol. I clearly remember how this forum looked like during same period in Legion, so 7.2. Even Argus was shit on, youtube celebrities were in awe when they saw it on PTR, but when it launched community screamed "B-O-R-I-N-G".

Only reason this forum was "hopeful" and more positive early Legion was huge drought after WoD where people really had nothing to do for year (lack of content + less casual things to do like collecting transmog or mounts). When you take long break, WoW taste 100x better.

[draugril]

All this cosmic stuff is fantastic as background dressing. Stuff found in books and legends - hinted at, but never confirmed. It's fun fodder for theorizing and speculating in any fantasy setting. The problem is, the actual workings of a fantasy cosmology are never as interesting as the speculation. The second you demystify this stuff is the second it becomes boring and your universe becomes small. These kinds of mysteries are fun because they make the world feel bigger than it is with limitless possibilities. Shadowlands, by defining large swathes of WoW's cosmology, has shrunk the perceived scope of this universe.

As a lifelong reader of fantasy, I honestly can't think of a single universe where the cosmology itself was inherently engaging. It has always been the characters and their interactions that draw you in. The same is true of nearly all stories, I suppose, fantasy or otherwise. The universe exists to service them - tricking the reader into perceiving the worlds they inhabit as beyond the scope of the author's detailing is a skill that WoW seems to have lost.

They're high on their own supply. They think they're being so incredibly clever with their "reveals" and retcons that they're forgetting to tell an actual story.

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So, this is what I think happened:

First Ones and Primals pop in at the same time when everything was still nothing (The Tool and the Architect share existence) >>>> Primals exist in strife >>>> First Ones feel like more should be done >>>> First Ones get together and think of a design >>>> They give a portion of themselves and give form to it >>>> The Primals are influenced by the First Ones and are given platonic form such as Order, Disorder, Shadow, Light, Life, and Death >>>> The First Ones then combine the forces in a pendulum and create the cosmic cycles for each power >>>> The Cosmic Framework is made and as a result a reaction is made from the First Ones' creative process with the Forces >>>> The Cosmic Realms are made and the First Ones establish cities, laws, and concepts that hold existence together >>>> The Elements are made and stuff such as Holy, Void, Arcane, etc pop in from the newly established/balanced powers >>>> The First Ones create their own cornerstone realm and the Sepulcher + cities within the Cosmic Realms >>>> The First Ones create the Cosmic Pantheons as the embodiments of each Cosmic Force and as extensions of the First Ones' will >>>> Cosmic races and shit are made >>>> First Ones then create reality as its nexus and supply the Cosmic Pantheons and Realms with additional resources to aid their existence >>>> First Ones create prophecies and shit like that for in case things go south >>>> First Ones dip and watch from beyond

No mention of the 7th power cause I'm not going into that rabbit-hole.

Oh, honey. I can assure you that you've put infinitely more thought into this than anyone on the WarCraft team.

[Nyel]

They're high on their own supply. They think they're being so incredibly clever with their "reveals" and retcons that they're forgetting to tell an actual story.

That's why these stories don't work in WoW. Was good to have this stuff in the novels and easier to understand main storylines in the game. But with Shadowlands they really tried to squeeze everything in the expansion, some retcons and shocking reveals on top and well, it's a hodgepodge of irrelevancy nobody actually cares for.

[TheFirstOnes]

All this cosmic stuff is fantastic as background dressing. Stuff found in books and legends - hinted at, but never confirmed. It's fun fodder for theorizing and speculating in any fantasy setting. The problem is, the actual workings of a fantasy cosmology are never as interesting as the speculation. The second you demystify this stuff is the second it becomes boring and your universe becomes small. These kinds of mysteries are fun because they make the world feel bigger than it is with limitless possibilities. Shadowlands, by defining large swathes of WoW's cosmology, has shrunk the perceived scope of this universe.

As a lifelong reader of fantasy, I honestly can't think of a single universe where the cosmology itself was inherently engaging. It has always been the characters and their interactions that draw you in. The same is true of nearly all stories, I suppose, fantasy or otherwise. The universe exists to service them - tricking the reader into perceiving the worlds they inhabit as beyond the scope of the author's detailing is a skill that WoW seems to have lost.

They're high on their own supply. They think they're being so incredibly clever with their "reveals" and retcons that they're forgetting to tell an actual story.

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Oh, honey. I can assure you that you've put infinitely more thought into this than anyone on the WarCraft team.

I mean, it just feels right. The First Ones and the Primals always existed (Serving as the tool and the architect), and the Architects used the tools in order to create and clockwork the Cosmos we see today.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...f_the_Universe

lol more things to prove my point

[Osmeric]

That's why these stories don't work in WoW. Was good to have this stuff in the novels and easier to understand main storylines in the game. But with Shadowlands they really tried to squeeze everything in the expansion, some retcons and shocking reveals on top and well, it's a hodgepodge of irrelevancy nobody actually cares for.

I think it's mostly that SL commits the eight deadly words of fiction: "I don't care what happens to these people."

[TheFirstOnes]

Wait, so how is there going to be a new Arbiter sigil when there is no more Arbiter? Maybe they can combine the other sigils? But I doubt it...

And why is Sylvanas being chained up in Oribos? Why not kill her? Why is she being saved for la-

...No...

No. No. No. No. No. NO! NO! NOOOO!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

[Lahis]

Wait, so how is there going to be a new Arbiter sigil when there is no more Arbiter? Maybe they can combine the other sigils? But I doubt it...

And why is Sylvanas being chained up in Oribos? Why not kill her? Why is she being saved for la-

...No...

No. No. No. No. No. NO! NO! NOOOO!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Oh you realised the Sylvanas Redemption Plan.

[TheFirstOnes]

Oh you realised the Sylvanas Redemption Plan.

I didn't want to believe it...especially through that "leak", since mf's usually cap for life, but...

No. This cannot be. They are actually gonna go full Kerrigan with her! DO NOT GO FULL KERRIGAN, DANUSER! PLEASE!

[Varodoc]

Dramatic much? Everyone knew Sylvanas would be redeemed the moment she hesitated when talking to Manduin.

Blizzard's writing is as subtle as a truck honestly

[NikolaiShade]

I didn't want to believe it...especially through that "leak", since mf's usually cap for life, but...

No. This cannot be. They are actually gonna go full Kerrigan with her! DO NOT GO FULL KERRIGAN, DANUSER! PLEASE!

I wouldn't rule out for Sylvanas to become the new Jailer, she and Bolvar are pretty fit for the job. What really puzzles me is what the Jailer threw at her at the end of Sanctum, we are assuming it was her soul splinter but why should the Jailer return it to her?

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Dramatic much? Everyone knew Sylvanas would be redeemed the moment she hesitated when talking to Manduin.

Blizzard's writing is as subtle as a truck honestly

Tbh until Shadowlands cinematic I had some hope they wanted to write Sylvanas as a crazy manipulative bad guy secretly fighting whatever was pulling the strings (the Jailer) willing to do anything to achieve that goal, you would have an evil character but not a straight cartoonish villain

[Varodoc]

I wouldn't rule out for Sylvanas to become the new Jailer, she and Bolvar are pretty fit for the job. What really puzzles me is what the Jailer threw at her at the end of Sanctum, we are assuming it was her soul splinter but why should the Jailer return it to her?

Because now the Psycho, thanks to her """"""Good""""" soul, can realize all the fucked up shit she has been doing for the last 15 years, including, but not limited to:

- Human experimentation
- The creation and use of the Blight
- The destruction of Gilneas
- The use of Val'kyrs
- The attempt at enslaving Odyn's people
- The bargain with Helya and the Janitor
- The Burning of Teldrassil
- The start of the Fourth War
- The creation of Auschwitz
- The indoctrination of Derek Proudmoore
- Etc. etc. etc.

If she just died she'd get an easy way out. She needs to live, be torn apart by remorse/guilt/disgust at herself, and suffer the wrath of all the people she's ruined.

Killing her would be the easy way out. Why do you think Hitler killed himself once he realized he lost?

In other words, the Janitor is just messing with her psychologically.

[NikolaiShade]

Because now the Psycho, thanks to her """"""Good""""" soul, can realize all the fucked up shit she has been doing for the last 15 years, including, but not limited to:

- Human experimentation
- The creation and use of the Blight
- The destruction of Gilneas
- The use of Val'kyrs
- The attempt at enslaving Odyn's people
- The bargain with Helya and the Janitor
- The Burning of Teldrassil
- The start of the Fourth War
- The creation of Auschwitz
- The indoctrination of Derek Proudmoore
- Etc. etc. etc.

If she just died she'd get an easy way out. She needs to live, be torn apart by remorse/guilt/disgust at herself, and suffer the wrath of all the people she's ruined.

Killing her would be the easy way out. Why do you think Hitler killed himself once he realized he lost?

In other words, the Janitor is just messing with her psychologically.

Pretty sure we forgot some point of that list... busy girl she's been. I fear they want to go the insanity plea route to redeem her and make her forget everything she did all those years, that world be really precious lol.

[Lady Atia]

I didn't want to believe it...especially through that "leak", since mf's usually cap for life, but...

No. This cannot be. They are actually gonna go full Kerrigan with her! DO NOT GO FULL KERRIGAN, DANUSER! PLEASE!

Hahahaha. I already liked Sylvanas' redemption arc, but this makes it even better. Please Danuser, go through with it and bring us our true Warchief back home.

[NikolaiShade]

I didn't want to believe it...especially through that "leak", since mf's usually cap for life, but...

No. This cannot be. They are actually gonna go full Kerrigan with her! DO NOT GO FULL KERRIGAN, DANUSER! PLEASE!

btw which leak are you referring to?

[Lahis]

I wouldn't rule out for Sylvanas to become the new Jailer, she and Bolvar are pretty fit for the job. What really puzzles me is what the Jailer threw at her at the end of Sanctum, we are assuming it was her soul splinter but why should the Jailer return it to her?

If the Eternal Ones are literally unkillable and we need to jail Zovaal again, I can see Sylvanas becoming new Jailer to keep Zovaal locked up in Torghast.

If we can kill Zovaal, there is no need for new Jailer, but we do need a new Arbiter so that is the role Sylvanas will take.

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Hahahaha. I already liked Sylvanas' redemption arc, but this makes it even better. Please Danuser, go through with it and bring us our true Warchief back home.

Sylvanas is not coming back to Azeroth or Horde. Depending on Zovaal's fate, she becomes either new Jailer or Arbiter.

[NikolaiShade]

If the Eternal Ones are literally unkillable and we need to jail Zovaal again, I can see Sylvanas becoming new Jailer to keep Zovaal locked up in Torghast.

If we can kill Zovaal, there is no need for new Jailer, but we do need a new Arbiter so that is the role Sylvanas will take.

I too think it's what's going to happen in the end, a main character sacrificing him/her-self to keep an evil organization or being imprisoned/in check is really cool and not something they already did at least twice......

[Sondrelk]

Best case scenario really is that Sylvanus becomes the new jailer. It keeps her away from Azeroth forever, and also keeps her away from any good characters who eventually die.

All we can do is cross our fingers Blizzard is at least self aware enough to know just how evil they made her.

[TheFirstOnes]

Dramatic much? Everyone knew Sylvanas would be redeemed the moment she hesitated when talking to Manduin.

Blizzard's writing is as subtle as a truck honestly

Dramatic? Bro, no one wants this. I'm fine with the Heroes destroying Zovaal in the end (And not fucking Sylvanas), but still...it's dumb.

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btw which leak are you referring to?

Was that 4Chan thing everyone called BS on, despite the fact most of it seems true atm lol. Talked about Arbiter Sylvanas, Blizzard not knowing what they're doing, and the company just straight up going to shit for the year, all of which happened or are happening, sadly.

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Hahahaha. I already liked Sylvanas' redemption arc, but this makes it even better. Please Danuser, go through with it and bring us our true Warchief back home.

You're evil, and I respect you for it. I'm going to Zereth Mortis, fuck this lol.

[Varodoc]

She'll become the new Janitor.

No perfect punishment for someone who is terrified of Hell, to end up in Hell for the rest of eternity, with no chance to leave it ever.

And finally this garbage character will no longer stain the story with her presence, this took too long

[Sondrelk]

Players have known Blizzard is having internal trouble for a while. And even if they didn't they take it as a given simply because that is what they are like.
Blizzard having internal troubles would have been true regardless of the Lawsuit, and Covid has been an issue for well over a year.

If a leak claiming internal troubles is the only reason to assume it seems real, then really it might as well not have said anything at all.