Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nyel]

No idea. Knowing Blizzard, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't address it, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did and their explanation is fucking stupid.

These are the only two options we have, like for real.

[Sondrelk]

Nice wall of text, but I was just responding to your comment that "final raid of the expansion has absolutely nothing to do with the plot the expansion began" while Old Gods had more story focus than war even in 8.0 (despite trailer and whole marketing selling us different expansion).

Where? Really, goddamn where was Old Gods even remotely as big a focus as faction war in 8.0?

The expansion trailer was faction war, the announcement trailer was faction war, the pre-pathc was faction war and the introductory questlines was faction war.
We are talking about an expansion whose main selling points in regards to extraneous systems was Islands expeditions (against opposing faction) and Warfronts (against opposing faction).
3 times during levelling you are pulled aside for a purely Faction war related campaign. And once you reach max level this campaign continues to trundle along as the faction war campaign.
2 of the 6 zones have nothing to do with N'zoth, and 3 of the remaining also have nothing to do with N'zoth, and are only old god related because that is the leadup to the first raid. One of the 6 total zones are unquestionable about faction war. And of course all of this is only if you look at the zones from the perspective of the main faction in them.



Also even then. BfA inarguably began with Teldrassil. That is the entire inciting incident that kicks the expansion off. It leads to teh Alliance retaliating against Undercity, it leads to the naval arms race. It is almost the entire reason the Alliance even does anything at all. They certainly wouldnt have gone to Kul Tiras, and by extension wouldnt have gotten entangled into the N'zoth plot.
I guess you could argue that the sword in Silithus and Azerite was the "actual" inciting incident, but here is the kicker, that plotline has almost nothing to do with N'zoth as well. It's very briefly mentioned as something the Naga are interested in during 8.2, but it has nothing to do with N'zoth until the very end when he tries to attack the heart chamber.



And again, you say it yourself. The marketing sold us an entirely different expansion. Can you honestly, and truthfully say that N'zoth returning has anything to do at all with the trailer of Anduin attacking Undercity? Or the pre-patch marketing of Sylvanas attacking Teldrassil? Because that is the entire point, it has nothing at all in common. It could have, but for some mystifying reason the writers did not even spend a single one of the many cinematics or unique questlines to bridge the two plotlines.
It's Wrath of the Lich King ending with Deathwing despite teh trailers promising Arthas.
It's Legion ending with Azshara, despite the trailers showing heroes of Azeroth fighting the Legion.
It's goddamn BfA, where the trailers showed Anduin rallying the Alliance to fight against Sylvanas, and the final raid was N'zoth, just sitting around.

[Makabreska]

And again, you say it yourself. The marketing sold us an entirely different expansion. Can you honestly, and truthfully say that N'zoth returning has anything to do at all with the trailer of Anduin attacking Undercity? Or the pre-patch marketing of Sylvanas attacking Teldrassil? Because that is the entire point, it has nothing at all in common. It could have, but for some mystifying reason the writers did not even spend a single one of the many cinematics or unique questlines to bridge the two plotlines.
It's Wrath of the Lich King ending with Deathwing despite teh trailers promising Arthas.
It's Legion ending with Azshara, despite the trailers showing heroes of Azeroth fighting the Legion.
It's goddamn BfA, where the trailers showed Anduin rallying the Alliance to fight against Sylvanas, and the final raid was N'zoth, just sitting around.

Dunno what is your problem here. That writers subverted expectations? That you didn't get story ending on a silver platter from the start? Do you feel deceived? Is it not allowed to feign and cover xpac ending? Do you just ignored Azshara Warbringers? I don't get these bizarre issues.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Also not to forget part of the marketing, the Warbringers cinematics, was of Azshara making her deal with N'zoth. I mean, one of the big jokes leading up to and during the beginning of the expaction was "totally not an Old God expansion, guys."

[Sondrelk]

It would be really odd to have dragon as a main villain in expansion called Wrath of the Lich king that was built up since Warcraft 3? Really? You think? Also you forgot about entirety of Ulduar and Old Gods as a completely separate plot line. Blizz done it since ever and suddenly demanding them to stop it is asinine.

And it would be really weird if an expansion that was sold on Alliance vs Horde marketing decided to ditch all of that for a N'zoth plotline that was poorly built up at best.
I am not demanding Blizzard stop having B or even C-plots. I am asking that they don't give us one thing to begin with, and then pull the rug out from under us and give us something else entirely with no explanation for how the two are supposed to be in any way related.



Also, brief war campaign moments? They were literally the entire endgame story. The story at best takes a brief moment to quickly wrap up Uldir so it can get back to espionage and sabotage.
It isnt a case where a few of the war campaign questlines deals with faction war, literally every single one does. That is the entire point.

[Makabreska]

And it would be really weird if an expansion that was sold on Alliance vs Horde marketing decided to ditch all of that for a N'zoth plotline that was poorly built up at best.
I am not demanding Blizzard stop having B or even C-plots. I am asking that they don't give us one thing to begin with, and then pull the rug out from under us and give us something else entirely with no explanation for how the two are supposed to be in any way related.

Eh, I give up. Guess you are one of those that has these "this is how it always should have been" things. Did you survive MoP uncertainty only because devs spilled the beans about SoO during xpac reveal?

Also, brief war campaign moments? They were literally the entire endgame story. The story at best takes a brief moment to quickly wrap up Uldir so it can get back to espionage and sabotage.
It isnt a case where a few of the war campaign questlines deals with faction war, literally every single one does. That is the entire point.

Again, ENTIRE zone questlines have nothing to do with faction war. 2/3 Kul Tiras is a prep for 8.2, 3/3 Zandalar is prep for 8.0 raid. Majority of faction war happened pre-xpac in Darkshore and Undercity.

[Sondrelk]

Dunno what is your problem here. That writers subverted expectations? That you didn't get story ending on a silver platter from the start? Do you feel deceived? Is it not allowed to feign and cover xpac ending? I don't get these bizarre issues.

Yes, writers should not subvert expectations just because they can. They should subvert them because that is what the story doesnt just need, but what makes sense for the story.
This isnt that faction war and Old Gods cannot coexist in the same expansion, MoP proved without a doubt that they can't just go together, they actually go together pretty damn well all things considered. What is the problem is that the writers never spend more than a single voiceline from Sylvanas to try and bridge the gap between "global faction war", and "Eldritch horrors want to kill us".

The faction war stuff dovetails somewhat into Shadowlands I suppose, but that isnt what I want from a WoW expansion. I want the ability to defeat the final boss and think that this is a fight that makes sense to me when I consider how it all began.
When I defeated Archimonde at the end of WoD that made sense, because the story had taken ample time to not just foreshadow the Legion, but also mesh that and the seemingly unrelated Iron Horde plotline into one cohesive whole that made Archimonde a perfectly fitting final boss.
When I defeated Argus I didnt have the faintest idea that he even existed before that very patch, but it was a fight that nevertheless made perfect sense, and was exactly what I wanted out of a Burning Legion themed expansion.

When I defeated N'zoth I didnt at all feel that this was the end to a long story of twists and turns. I felt like the previous expansion had ended in 8.2.5, and I was now in the worlds shortest single patch expansion.

[Hitei]

Again, ENTIRE zone questlines have nothing to do with faction war. 2/3 Kul Tiras is a prep for 8.2, 3/3 Zandalar is prep for 8.0 raid. Majority of faction war happened pre-xpac in Darkshore and Undercity.

I get the impression you're the sort of person that doesn't pay attention to quests, but all of the Kul Tiran zones have to do with the faction war. There is one zone that is 8.2 related and that zone is still like 30% directly Horde vs Alliance. Your questing in tiragarde is to try and unseat Ashvane so that you can get Kul Tiras to agree to form an Alliance and use their navy against the Horde's probable Zandalari fleet. You only go to Stormsong to attempt to locate and secure said navy to use against the Horde and end up fighting off a Horde invasion there. You go to Drustvar because the Kul Tiran mines have stopped responding and you need them up and running for the war effort.

The entire Kul Tiras storyline is trying to get Kul Tiras on your side for the war and get their resources and navy back to running so that they will be functional once on your side. Just because every zone isn't about killing nothing but orcs doesn't mean they have nothing to do with the war.

[Sondrelk]

Eh, I give up. Guess you are one of those that has these "this is how it always should have been" things. Did you survive MoP uncertainty only because devs spilled the beans about SoO during xpac reveal?


Again, ENTIRE zone questlines have nothing to do with faction war. 2/3 Kul Tiras is a prep for 8.2, 3/3 Zandalar is prep for 8.0 raid. Majority of faction war happened pre-xpac in Darkshore and Undercity.

No, because in MoP I knew the expansion was fation war themed because that is what the trailers, pre-patch, introduction and general questlines told me.
SoO wasnt a sudden and unexpected return to faction war, it was the ending to an entire expansion of twists and turns whose eventual return to Garrosh and his warmongering was pefectly fitting as an end.


And sure, no faction war. Except of course the Island expeditions, all the questlines where you establish bases in the opposing faction zones, all the mission table stuff, the warfront, HD Arathi, the greater plotline of the entire Kul Tiras storyline, a good half of Stormsong at least, why we stop Ashvane. And let's not forget the entire Sylvanas Loyalist plotline.
And that's just 8.0. The entirety of 8.1 is faction war themed. From the world events to the raid.

[Dracullus]

Where? Really, goddamn where was Old Gods even remotely as big a focus as faction war in 8.0?

Not same. Bigger focus. Already said it, want me to repeat it? Ok.

Whole Uldir raid is part of Old God plot.
So is Heart of Azeroth questline, they attack in first quest, then MOTHER gets involved, later HoA is used to open N'zoth prison, finally Silithus chamber serves as base of operation in 8.3.
Whole Zandalar story is basically Uldir campaign.
Main Kul Tiras problem is fleet trapped by Azshara.
Stormsong main plot is stopping Azshara's ally/minion.
Tiragarde main plot is stopping another Azshara's ally, also we defeat Old Gods minion in one side

Out of 6 zones only 1 side chapter in Stormsong and unlocking posts (not all, from my memory like 4/6) were about faction war.
As I said earlier: trailer, marketing, pre-patch, warfronts and war campaign were about faction war. But actual meat of expansion (zones, dungeons, raid) was defeating Old Gods or their allies. From major patches only in 8.1 there was bigger focus on war than Old Gods.

[Ersula]

Not same. Bigger focus. Already said it, want me to repeat it? Ok.

Whole Uldir raid is part of Old God plot.
So is Heart of Azeroth questline, they attack in first quest, then MOTHER gets involved, later HoA is used to open N'zoth prison, finally Silithus chamber serves as base of operation in 8.3.
Whole Zandalar story is basically Uldir campaign.
Main Kul Tiras problem is fleet trapped by Azshara.
Stormsong main plot is stopping Azshara's ally/minion.
Tiragarde main plot is stopping another Azshara's ally, also we defeat Old Gods minion in one side

Out of 6 zones only 1 side chapter in Stormsong and unlocking posts (not all, from my memory like 4/6) were about faction war.
As I said earlier: trailer, marketing, pre-patch, warfronts and war campaign were about faction war. But actual meat of expansion (zones, dungeons, raid) was defeating Old Gods or their allies. From major patches only in 8.1 there was bigger focus on war than Old Gods.

Honestly gaslighting us at this point: The biggest complaint about BFA was their rep in BFA was too small. Almost everyone was guessing N'zoth's feeble plot in 8.3 was just a precursor to a full Old God Expansion in 9.0 that never happened. The Old Gods are now permanently branded with the reputation of being weaker than Illidan or the Lich King

[Dracullus]

Honestly gaslighting us at this point: The biggest complaint about BFA was their rep in BFA was too small. Almost everyone was guessing N'zoth's feeble plot in 8.3 was just a precursor to a full Old God Expansion in 9.0 that never happened. The Old Gods are now permanently branded with the reputation of being weaker than Illidan or the Lich King

Both 'Death' expansion (either Scourge 2.0 or Shadowlands) and Black Empire were among most common guesses (like currently Light, Light vs. Void, Dragon Isles, revamp) with 'Death' being main one at least since 8.2.5, but even before that there were ton of hints (Vol'jin, Bwomsandi, Drustvar among main ones).

N'zoth as possible main villain was hinted at Blizzcon just few months after BfA launch. These things didn't appear out of the blue.

I still expect huge Void storyline, but rather in Light vs. Void expansion. We still have Xal'atath, Azshara, Void Lords and of course wound in Silithus.

Also yes, Old Gods appear to be pretty shitty in BfA, 8.3 would be much more impactful story if stuff from horrific vision would actually happen. But I was talking about their presence, not quality.

[TheFirstOnes]

Regarding that the story of BfA has been one of its biggest critique point, I think a story that's "spread too thin" is way better than a convoluted mess nobody likes in the end. After BfA and especially after Shadowlands they need something easy and less complicated. Something containing the Light, the Void and Dragons for sure will rival BfA's mess of a story.

Oh no, I agree with you. BFA's story was convoluted as shit. But, knowing Blizzard, I'm afraid they're gonna do this. Hell, I'm afraid 9.2 is gonna force the Life Pantheon and First One plots together, making things kinda cluttered in and dealt with way too fast.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't think you guys know what the word even means. BFA wasn't convoluted.

[TheFirstOnes]

Faction war was literally the entire trailer, sales pitch, pre-patch, opening questline, reason to go to Kul Tiras/Zandalar, large chunks of the levelling, as well as the entire endgame questline and entirety of the 8.1 patch.
It was hardly just a side-thing.

And again, even if it wasnt, then why spend the entire time on that plotline if it wasnt going to go anywhere? It was given primetime story real estate. It didnt just get a first for full trailer quality CGI cutscenes for its story, but a full 3 of them. It wasnt just a side-thing like the pillars of creation in Legion, it was touted as the entire reason the expansion was ongoing. Magni literally pulls us aside in-between faction war stuff to just hand us a necklace while we do the actual storyline of faction war.

And then 7.2.5 rolls around and that storyline just ends. It almost replays teh Siege of Orgrimmar plotline, along with fully rendered cinematics, 2 of them in fact, one using in-game models, and one trailer quality CGI, this in addition to several in-game cutscenes.

Why did Blizzard give the story all this time and effort if they are just going to swap over to N'zoth afterwards? And why in the world did they not even bother linking the entire inciting incident of Teldrassil to the final raid beyond the most token of justifications?


If BfA is faction war like the trailers, opening and large chunks of the plot tells you, then why does it end with N'zoth apropos of nothing.
If it is old god based, then why does it spend all this time on a subplot while the suppoed "main" plot ends up desperately starved for buildup?

We could have had a really kickass Old God storyline all along, one where we go to Zandalar and Kul Tiras for entirely different reasons while endgame questlines deal with the rise of N'zoth cultists or Aqir. The story could have taken us on an odyssey of discovery to all the different Old God infested areas like Ulduar or the depths of Orgrimmar. 8.1 could have been a revamped Ahn'qiraj, it's literally right next to Magni's camp in Silithus and this area is never even brought up despite the expansion supposedly being about Old Gods all along.


Either the expansion was Old God based and it wasted most of its buildup on absolutely pointless busywork that didnt move the story much forward. Or it was faction War based and the ending is the most pathetic copout the game has seen. We could have had Sylvanas storm the ports of Stormwind and ressurect the graveyard, we could have had her take Silvermoon in a dark mirror of Arthas' attack. Hell, we could have had a raid on Teldrassil, bringing the entire expansion full circle as the entire reason the war began is now the reason the war will end.

We could have had lots of stuff, but instead we got BfA. The expansion of two entirely different halves.

Yeah, advertisement kinda fucked BFA up. Also, Blizzard's been wasting their fucking breath saying "BFA IS NOT AN OLD GOD EXPANSION" despite the fact Azshara was a confirmed Raid Boss since the first What's Next Panel after BFA's ANNOUNCEMENT!!!

- - - Updated - - -

I think everyone here should realize this...

People can argue WoW has no soul anymore, and I'd agree in a way. But in terms of Art and Music, the soul still exists.

[Three Faced Goddess]

I am certain Turalyon won't be evil and I wonder why are people saying that.

Probably because one of Il'gynoth's whispers stating "The Golden one claims a vacant throne. The crown of light will only bring darkness." Though, it's not certain who the whisper is actually talking about. It could even be Calia Menethil.

Back to the topic, I don't know which zones would play for this expansion, but maybe revamped EK and Kalimdor again. We've been teased with the return of Scarlet Crusade and I love it. I almost forgot about that in 8.3.

[Hitei]

Yeah, advertisement kinda fucked BFA up. Also, Blizzard's been wasting their fucking breath saying "BFA IS NOT AN OLD GOD EXPANSION" despite the fact Azshara was a confirmed Raid Boss since the first What's Next Panel after BFA's ANNOUNCEMENT!!!

Ah, yes. The thing that literally no Blizzard employee ever said at any point, but which people constantly meme because Taliesin and Evitel said it a whole bunch of times.

[TheFirstOnes]

Ah, yes. The thing that literally no Blizzard employee ever said at any point, but which people constantly meme because Taliesin and Evitel said it a whole bunch of times.

Except they did. Or at least Ion said that

[Syegfryed]

wait, what, i was coming here to see if anyone was talking about new leaks, cause si saw people saying that on facebook and i discover they remove George the corpsegrinder? are they fucking insane? i knew those bullshit changes were going too far at some point.

dude has a Horde tattoo, he is a well know vocalist of a big band and sing in blizzcon, no other people deserve more a reference than him

[Hitei]

Except they did. Or at least Ion said that

Please post him saying it.