1. #9841
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yrel is only "evil" when applied to our standards. To her, the Light needs to be spread to all corners of the universe and all vestiges of evil or the Void should be eradicated. How is that any different than what your standard Paladin believes?

    The only real difference is that she forces people into her beliefs, and what makes her scary is that she has the power to do it.

    That said, I like the idea of Light followers being an antagonistic force.
    I agree it would be interesting, especially since Paladins (with the exceptions of Blood Knights) were always painted as the good guys in the Warcraft universe. Having them being more nuanced, splitting and ranging from moderate ones to downright fanatics will surely be exploited by Blizzard at some point, especially after the Yrel scenario, the Turalyon build up and the Light breadcrumbs in SL. It's not what I'm most excited about, but eh, it's about the execution as much as it is about the theme, so who knows! I wasn't excited for Legion, and I ended up loving it.

  2. #9842
    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrad Wagner View Post
    Where did I say insignificant? And why are we discussing the reception of an expansion by players instead of the possibility that an expansion may happen despite its lack of lore backbone?

    Don't put words which aren't mine in my mouth, and keep the attitude for someone else, thank you very much pumpkin.
    Which attitude, the one where I call anyone who criticizes something "toxic troll"? Oh wait
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  3. #9843
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Which attitude, the one where I call anyone who criticizes something "toxic troll"? Oh wait
    Fallacy, again. I think after the next one, you get one for free.

  4. #9844
    Quote Originally Posted by GardensofLife View Post
    Gardens of Life:
    - Level 70 cap
    - Profession revamp
    - Cross-faction PvE and PvP
    - Eternal Maze
    - New class: Lifewarden
    - Flying at launch
    - New realm: Gardens of Life

    The Jailer has disrupted the eternal cycle and the Gardens of Life are in chaos. Elune calls the night elf souls sent to Ardenweald and Tyrande to her side. An'she calls the newly awakened Vol'jin to him. A new class introduced themed after these two major characters new paths: The Lifewarden. Mail user with ranged/healer/tank specs. Ranged/healer uses bow and tank uses warglaives. Flying is at launch and zones are designed with it in mind. The Eternal Maze is a new rogue-like experience that has no loading screens that generates content as you move through the mist seamlessly in this living world.All faction restrictions lifted from Raiding, Mythic+ and PvP and can now be done with the opposing faction and guilds can now have members from both factions.
    The bold part alone would make me extremely happy, regardless of the setting.

    Sadly, I don't think this leak is true. A bad attempt tbh, but still nice to see people's creativity.

  5. #9845
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    I mean the lore isn't deep, but I mean these are the people who didn't understand why we were killing Illidan in BC....even though every quest up to BT showed exactly what atrocities he was committing much less even those that haven't been retconned away, the torture of the Netherdrakes is still canonically by his hand and direction(oops novel must have missed that in trying to make him heroic). Then again these are also the same people who think he was a hero/antihero when everything he did was for himself or to win Tyrande's favor. I mean they really need to just make the lore more paint by numbers for these people or something and maybe they won't cry bad lore because the children's book level seems a bit too complicated for them.
    Oh, sure, he did some bad stuff... but ultimately, he wasn't really doing a whole lot that was relevant to us. That was mostly Kael and some Vashj. Illidan just sat in his fortress in Shadowmoon and didn't do much of anything during our time in Outland.

    So the question of "why did we kill him?" is perfectly valid. We had no actual reason to go after him.

    Though i'm a little confused where you got this supposed confirmation that Illidan ordered the torture of the Netherdrakes. AFAIR, that was just the Dragonmaw acting on their own, and i can't seem to find any sources regarding your claim.

  6. #9846
    Quote Originally Posted by GardensofLife View Post
    Gardens of Life:
    - Level 70 cap
    - Profession revamp
    - Cross-faction PvE and PvP
    - Eternal Maze
    - New class: Lifewarden
    - Flying at launch
    - New realm: Gardens of Life

    The Jailer has disrupted the eternal cycle and the Gardens of Life are in chaos. Elune calls the night elf souls sent to Ardenweald and Tyrande to her side. An'she calls the newly awakened Vol'jin to him. A new class introduced themed after these two major characters new paths: The Lifewarden. Mail user with ranged/healer/tank specs. Ranged/healer uses bow and tank uses warglaives. Flying is at launch and zones are designed with it in mind. The Eternal Maze is a new rogue-like experience that has no loading screens that generates content as you move through the mist seamlessly in this living world.All faction restrictions lifted from Raiding, Mythic+ and PvP and can now be done with the opposing faction and guilds can now have members from both factions.
    this is a bit too safe and especially professions revamp is something we know they work on. The class seems like... what I would imagine for a priestress of Elune but it seems strange to make a Lifewarden when you already got druid. Idk it seems weird to make something up entirely new... but it's not impossible (we had monks after all).

    What checks out:
    The idea is somewhat on the same trajectory as Shadowlands and continues to explore cosmic powers as well as feature extensions.
    It would make the entire Arendweal thing more into a setup for the next expansion instead of the Night Elf (and Vol'jins...) conclusion of their Ark that started in Shadowlands.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-10-27 at 11:26 PM.

  7. #9847
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm still surprised that we didn't get Dark Rangers (or Necromancers) in Shadowlands. Seemed like the perfect time to introduce them, especially given the focus on Sylvanas.

    That said, while there have been hints for light/void, I don't think the community at large wants another cosmic expansion after this one. I believe that both Blizzard and the fanbase wants to move towards a more grounded expansion in 10.0. Also after we deal with Light/Void (where at the end we'd pretty much defeat the void lords), what would be after that? The game would be better served if we go to a new continent on Azeroth. Players would be happy whether that new continent is Undermine or Dragon Isles.
    Yeah me too. Sometimes I lose hope of ever seeing them implemented in any fashion. I didn't want one of my favorite characters ruined (for me) by Shadowlands either, but it happened. I'd like a more grounded expansion too, but I don't believe that Blizzard (I could be wrong) would put such a heavy focus on two of the least popular races in the game. After the void lords we still have Sargeras to deal with as well as Azshara and Chromatus. Knowing Blizzard they'll invent some new threat that almost no one will care about. We're just about out of interesting big bads and big threats based on WC-WCIII. Blizzard probably shouldn't have plowed through all of their iconic antagonists like they did. Sorry, I'm being so cynical. Not in a good place with the Warcraft franchise right now.
    On silken ebony wings the harbinger of death arrives.

  8. #9848
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Turalyon is WAY more of a symbol of the light than Calia is. Further, he is considered a legendary hero among the people of Stormwind, and one of the most revered and honored Paladins in lore. Hell, Turalyon was legendary even before WoW began.

    That also makes him far more dangerous if he decides to go against Anduin, because you could very easily see scores of the Alliance's soldiers and Paladins joining him.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because people are playing WORLD of Warcraft, not Universe of Warcraft. Yeah, venturing to other realms and dimensions is okay in moderation. However, people are drawn to Azeroth itself, and that's where the 99% of the story should be taking place. We shouldn't be planet-hopping from world to world punching literal gods in the face.

    Also an expansion dealing with the Light and Dark really makes no sense. What's the end game? We defeat Shadow Lord, master of all Shadow magic? We going to be taking down the creator of literal gods now? Okay cool! So what do we do in the expansion after that? How do you top that big bad? We going to fight reality next?

    Again, it's like a Star Wars story where we fight the literal Dark Side of the force and punch it in the face.
    Crazy rant there.

    Did you know that the story is still connected to Azeroth? Nothing’s changed.

  9. #9849
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Crazy rant there.

    Did you know that the story is still connected to Azeroth? Nothing’s changed.
    The argument was DOA anyway, since world can in fact mean universe, and the game isn't called World of Azeroth.

  10. #9850
    Quote Originally Posted by The Banshee View Post
    Yeah me too. Sometimes I lose hope of ever seeing them implemented in any fashion. I didn't want one of my favorite characters ruined (for me) by Shadowlands either, but it happened. I'd like a more grounded expansion too, but I don't believe that Blizzard (I could be wrong) would put such a heavy focus on two of the least popular races in the game. After the void lords we still have Sargeras to deal with as well as Azshara and Chromatus. Knowing Blizzard they'll invent some new threat that almost no one will care about. We're just about out of interesting big bads and big threats based on WC-WCIII. Blizzard probably shouldn't have plowed through all of their iconic antagonists like they did. Sorry, I'm being so cynical. Not in a good place with the Warcraft franchise right now.
    I will point it out again, but Necromancer makes more sense after Shadowlands (when Horde and Alliance members/leaders are coming back from the realm of death with all sorts of new knowledge and understanding of death-based magic and the idea that death-based magic and necromancy can be a totally positive thing, and people on the living side will be looking to establish more safeguards to help keep things in balance) than during Shadowlands, where it wouldn't have made much sense.

    Unlike demon hunters, who by definition are specialized in hunting and killing demons, and so make a good faction to fight the Legion, Necromancers from the Ebon Blade would have been largely useless in dealing with Shadowlands--Bolvar barely even understood what was on the other side, so they'd have zero knowledge of what they are fighting against, and would be facing a realm that is much better than they are at using death magic and necromancy, in addition to being generally out of their element (raising the dead isn't all that great in a place where everyone is already dead and Maldraxxus is doing it as part of normal activities).

    Not saying necromancer will be in 10.0, of course (or at any point). But in terms of timing, a bunch of races starting to train Necromancers makes more sense coming back from the Shadowlands rather than when emergency jumping into them.

  11. #9851
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I will point it out again, but Necromancer makes more sense after Shadowlands (when Horde and Alliance members/leaders are coming back from the realm of death with all sorts of new knowledge and understanding of death-based magic and the idea that death-based magic and necromancy can be a totally positive thing, and people on the living side will be looking to establish more safeguards to help keep things in balance) than during Shadowlands, where it wouldn't have made much sense.
    Necromancers are still the epitome of disturbing the great cycle, so it makes little to no sense to introduce them afterwards, at least not for the reasons you stated. Necromancers disturb the order of the shadowlands which is why Kyrians even have special clauses where they allow souls to return and fight them. It would have probably made more sense to be attacked by "death" and enlisting the aid of necromancers to combat them with their knowledge of it, even if that only pertains to their knowledge on manipulating souls, without actual knowledge on the shadowlands proper. Which was retconned anyway, since the ebenblade clearly knew about how to enter and traverse the shadowlands in the wrath starter zones.
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2021-10-28 at 02:57 AM.
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  12. #9852
    Lifelands is stupid because we're going back to Azeroth. We always go back to Azeroth.

  13. #9853
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I google "Gardens of Life Wowpedia", I click the link to the WoWpedia page, and I am met with a page with just 1 line (of Factual information) in total:



    Yes, I totally agree that the expansion after Shadowlands should be set in a location that literally only has 1 line of lore. Naturally

    How do people even come up with these shit leaks...
    I'll give them credit for not calling it Lifelands at least.

    Or inventing a name.

    They at least did the research.
    FFXIV - Maduin (Dynamis DC)

  14. #9854
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I will point it out again, but Necromancer makes more sense after Shadowlands (when Horde and Alliance members/leaders are coming back from the realm of death with all sorts of new knowledge and understanding of death-based magic and the idea that death-based magic and necromancy can be a totally positive thing, and people on the living side will be looking to establish more safeguards to help keep things in balance) than during Shadowlands, where it wouldn't have made much sense.

    Unlike demon hunters, who by definition are specialized in hunting and killing demons, and so make a good faction to fight the Legion, Necromancers from the Ebon Blade would have been largely useless in dealing with Shadowlands--Bolvar barely even understood what was on the other side, so they'd have zero knowledge of what they are fighting against, and would be facing a realm that is much better than they are at using death magic and necromancy, in addition to being generally out of their element (raising the dead isn't all that great in a place where everyone is already dead and Maldraxxus is doing it as part of normal activities).

    Not saying necromancer will be in 10.0, of course (or at any point). But in terms of timing, a bunch of races starting to train Necromancers makes more sense coming back from the Shadowlands rather than when emergency jumping into them.
    You do make a valid point. Once we come back after the Shadowlands we'll have learned so much more about death magic and necromancy that we could properly harness it to greater effect in a class. If we go by this supposition, there's no reason another death and necromancy related class like Dark Rangers couldn't happen afterwards either. Usually the class we get is themed after the expansion we're going into, but there's always a chance Blizzard will deviate from that pattern.
    On silken ebony wings the harbinger of death arrives.

  15. #9855
    Gardens of Life have a better chance of being the 9.2 zone(s) than anything.

  16. #9856
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Gardens of Life have a better chance of being the 9.2 zone(s) than anything.
    Doubtful, unless that Sepelchur is there. 9.3 maybe, if we get one.

    Though it could also be pre-emptive seeding for 11.0, as Blizz is wont to do.
    FFXIV - Maduin (Dynamis DC)

  17. #9857
    Quote Originally Posted by Felis igneus View Post
    Necromancers are still the epitome of disturbing the great cycle, so it makes little to no sense to introduce them afterwards, at least not for the reasons you stated. Necromancers disturb the order of the shadowlands which is why Kyrians even have special clauses where they allow souls to return and fight them. It would have probably made more sense to be attacked by "death" and enlisting the aid of necromancers to combat them with their knowledge of it.
    They really aren't though. Kyrians have a bunch of completely retarded rules that make no sense at all like continuing to feed souls into the maw because it's "their job" to send souls to Oribos even though Oribos is broken, so it's probably best not to take advice from them.

    Necromancers are only as disruptive to """the great cycle""" as their individual wills. Bwonsamdi actively practices necromancy and he isn't disrupting the cycle, he is actively enforcing it, really the entirety of Ardenweald is about bringing the dead back to life as part of the cycle. The Necrolords constantly practice necromancy, originally in an effort to protect the Shadowlands, with zero problem. "disturbing the great cycle" is just arbitrary bullshit drummed up under the pretense that necromancy = bad because it's not what X faction likes, but that doesn't really make any sense for Shadowlands, an entire expansion about doing shit with the souls of the dead, using them for energy, etc.

    You can see how little Necromancy is dIstUrbinG tHe CycLe in how little even Oribos' forces give a shit about the Ebon Blade being their primary liaison. It's really just the Kyrian doing typical Kyrian shit, and in the fact that the Arbiter, when working, had zero problem doing stuff like sending Kel'thuzad to serve among the Necrolords and Primus' runework involved a bunch of necromantic forging of souls into weapons and shit, it's clear necromancy isn't disturbing anything unless deliberately used to do so.

    It doesn't make sense to enlist the aid of preSL necromancers to combat "death" with their knowledge of it, because, again, the knowledge of your average Azeroth necromancers isn't "how to stop death magic and fight against forces from the world beyond the dead". They had almost zero knowledge of the Shadowlands, so there's no "knowledge of it" to begin with, and what knowledge they have of death magics in general, is knowledge on how active propagate and use them, not fight against them, stop the forces of the maw (which is magic they have zero knowledge of or experience with) or restore balance to a system they have no understanding of.

    It's like deciding that the thing that makes the most sense for 4.2's Firelands storyline is to have a faction of fire mages lead the charge into the Firelands. Do you see how absurd that would be? They don't know anything about the Firelands, and they are good at using fire, not fighting against an even higher, more primal version of fire magic that innately understands how fire magic works better than those mages ever will.

    But necromancers trained after the end of Shadowlands are necromancers created by the knowledge recovered. They are masters of poison and plagues because the factions picked up techniques from people who have been doing it for time immeasurable, they know how to finely craft undead because the factions saw first hand how it's done by people for whom that is their entire life. They know how to manipulate soul and spirit magic better than the cult of the damned ever did, because they have a thorough understanding of the Shadowland's side of things and how anima is really used, and how it can be pulled more naturally without just tearing the soul to pieces. Their knowledge of "blood magic" is informed by the factions watching Venthyr harvesters expertly pull and redistribute lifeforce from their charges, etc. etc.

    tl;dr:
    •Necromancers in SL = A bunch of ignorant novices running around trying to fight people who are infinitely more knowledgeable and better at doing necromancer stuff than they are, and know all sorts of shit they didn't even know existed.

    •Necromancers after SL = A bunch of students learning techniques taken from the teachings of those absolute masters of necromantic magic, who have been using that kind of magic for millennia, learning techniques mortals would normally never even know about.

  18. #9858



    Did anyone notice this btw?

    It's not fan-made. It's officially in blizzard files. Is it just for "nothing better to do", or is it part of "something bigger"?

  19. #9859
    Quote Originally Posted by Felis igneus View Post
    Necromancers are still the epitome of disturbing the great cycle, so it makes little to no sense to introduce them afterwards, at least not for the reasons you stated. Necromancers disturb the order of the shadowlands which is why Kyrians even have special clauses where they allow souls to return and fight them. It would have probably made more sense to be attacked by "death" and enlisting the aid of necromancers to combat them with their knowledge of it, even if that only pertains to their knowledge on manipulating souls, without actual knowledge on the shadowlands proper. Which was retconned anyway, since the ebenblade clearly knew about how to enter and traverse the shadowlands in the wrath starter zones.
    That was because that specific Necromancer was doing it. Literally every native spellcaster we meet in SL is a Necromancer, and nobody has an issue with that.

  20. #9860
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post



    Did anyone notice this btw?

    It's not fan-made. It's officially in blizzard files. Is it just for "nothing better to do", or is it part of "something bigger"?
    I’ve been suspecting 10.0 would really focus on EK and Kalimdor for the nostalgia and this feels like more evidence.
    They keep slowing updating a lot of the older assets like animals and mobs, and now it looks like they’ve begun doing buildings as well. It’d be such a monumental task to bring the graphics for two whole continents up to modern standards, so spacing some of that out in chunks over multiple expansions seems like a sound strategy.

    Who can say though!

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