Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[NikolaiShade]

I doubt we'll get any 10.0 info until after 9.2's release day. Could be wrong and earlier but unlikely.

Still of the idea SL ending is so tied to the next expansion you can't talk about the latter without spoiling the former

[Nyel]

Oh interesting, yeah I'm doubling down on 9.2 at the end of February.

Yeah, I find 9.2 at the end of February more likely than the 10.0 announcement at that time. This would make 9.2 release on February 22.

[Therougetitan]

Still of the idea SL ending is so tied to the next expansion you can't talk about the latter without spoiling the former

Antorus came out a few weeks after BfA announcement and the ending was tied too. It will be fine.

[Revamp Man]

Was it the "leak" about the (really cool) transforming worgen heritage armor?

No he had the leak for 10.0 being dragon isles and dragonsworn but in the post he had 8.2.5 and general 8.3 info it’s Razorpax leak in the 9.0 spreadsheet

- - - Updated - - -

Antorus came out a few weeks after BfA announcement and the ending was tied too. It will be fine.

Especially if the triggering event is during our SL adventure and they are vague about the connection

[Hitei]

Oh come on, there's a HUGE difference between "There's a dangerous entity beyond the realm of death"

It isn't "There's a dangerous entity beyond the realm of death", it's "there are multiple, ancient, Titan-level or near-Titan-level beings in the Shadowlands specifically". In the same expansion where Sylvanas is seen making a shady deal with that same person who pointed out that those beings exist, and the same expansion where a mysterious spirit of questionable intent makes Sylvanas the warchief in setup for BfA. I don't even know how this is up for debate, we already know that they chart out the general plot points for expansions 2+ in advance, because they start the initial devleopment of the expansion after next while doing the development for the next expansion.

Tom Chilton explicitly stated prior to WoD's release that they had the next six or seven expansions already conceptualized with a planned timeline they could then adjust and play with.

It's just insane that people think they sat down making Legion, knew that the next expansion was going to be a naval war expansion where Sylvanas was a large player, and knew that Sylvanas was making deals with Helya, and opened Legion with mysterious spirits convincing Vol'jin to make Slyvanas warchief, and explicitly planted the information that there are Titan-like beings in the Shadowlands, and knew that Shadowlands was probably going to be the expansion after next.... yet sOmEHoW it's totally impossible that they planned to have a super-powerful being in the Shadowlands pulling the strings for events on Azeroth back during the development of that expansion.

than making the Jailer be responsible for pretty much everything that has happened in WoW.

He isn't though. Not sure why people keep parroting this factually incorrect nonsense. Basically all that was changed was who the Dreadlords were actually loyal to, something that has always been in question since even in both versions of the Legion's origin, they exist independently of Sargeras and have their own agenda; and the nature of the corrupting, malevolent force associated with the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne, which prior to this had just been some vague "evil".

[Fiercelord]

A lot of people are believing the "Dragon Isles" leak & it being the actual name of the expansion. They would never use that kind of title.

[NikolaiShade]

Antorus came out a few weeks after BfA announcement and the ending was tied too. It will be fine.

I was pretty sure BfA was announced after Antorus

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I was pretty sure BfA was announced after Antorus

It was, roughly 2 months ish(Not totally 3 months) later BFA was announced.

[Kiivar86]

A lot of people are believing the "Dragon Isles" leak & it being the actual name of the expansion. They would never use that kind of title.

Never say never.

I saw the very same argument against Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria, and Battle for Azeroth.

I was pretty sure BfA was announced after Antorus

It was, roughly 2 months ish(Not totally 3 months) later BFA was announced.

Less than a month, actually.

BfA announced at Blizzcon on November 3rd, 2017. Antorus opened on November 28th, 2017. Though the patch came out in late August, to be fair.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It's just insane that people think they sat down making Legion, knew that the next expansion was going to be a naval war expansion where Sylvanas was a large player, and knew that Sylvanas was making deals with Helya, and opened Legion with mysterious spirits convincing Vol'jin to make Slyvanas warchief, and explicitly planted the information that there are Titan-like beings in the Shadowlands, and knew that Shadowlands was probably going to be the expansion after next.... yet sOmEHoW it's totally impossible that they planned to have a super-powerful being in the Shadowlands pulling the strings for events on Azeroth back during the development of that expansion.

That doesn't mean details haven't changed. This refers specifically to Zovaal's involvement in the story as it presently is—keep in mind that they already made a serious change to the Shadowlands from its description in Chronicle, which came out around the same time as the comment you aforementioned.

[Revamp Man]

I'm going to find it hilarious when one big leak dropped, everyone blew their loads, and we're gonna end up waiting until April for a reveal.

If that happens they will have a 9.3

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It isn't "There's a dangerous entity beyond the realm of death", it's "there are multiple, ancient, Titan-level or near-Titan-level beings in the Shadowlands specifically". In the same expansion where Sylvanas is seen making a shady deal with that same person who pointed out that those beings exist, and the same expansion where a mysterious spirit of questionable intent makes Sylvanas the warchief in setup for BfA. I don't even know how this is up for debate, we already know that they chart out the general plot points for expansions 2+ in advance, because they start the initial devleopment of the expansion after next while doing the development for the next expansion.

Tom Chilton explicitly stated prior to WoD's release that they had the next six or seven expansions already conceptualized with a planned timeline they could then adjust and play with.

It's just insane that people think they sat down making Legion, knew that the next expansion was going to be a naval war expansion where Sylvanas was a large player, and knew that Sylvanas was making deals with Helya, and opened Legion with mysterious spirits convincing Vol'jin to make Slyvanas warchief, and explicitly planted the information that there are Titan-like beings in the Shadowlands, and knew that Shadowlands was probably going to be the expansion after next.... yet sOmEHoW it's totally impossible that they planned to have a super-powerful being in the Shadowlands pulling the strings for events on Azeroth back during the development of that expansion.


He isn't though. Not sure why people keep parroting this factually incorrect nonsense. Basically all that was changed was who the Dreadlords were actually loyal to, something that has always been in question since even in both versions of the Legion's origin, they exist independently of Sargeras and have their own agenda; and the nature of the corrupting, malevolent force associated with the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne, which prior to this had just been some vague "evil".

Another "Oh COME ON" For real, as if making the Helm of Domination and the Lich King itself, which are core to the narrative since War3, simply part of the new retroactively introduced villain plan isn't the problem.

You keep saying "the hints are there" as if that was the issue, when the problem is how it reframes everything that happened to be connected to an until now unknown character -as in, an actual character, not a nebulous entity without actual characterization-

As if it's not clear, a lore precedent does not by itself make a coherent or even compelling narrative; one of the major issues with Zovaal as a villain is that it connects EVERYTHING to his plan, that's what being "responsible" for means.

He isn't though. Not sure why people keep parroting this factually incorrect nonsense.

It's literally factual, man; He made the Helm and the Dreadlords are on his side, he has also made the one behind Sylvanas naming of Warchief, also made a deal with her on WotLK that only now we knew off.

Saying that him being responsible for everything is "factually incorrect nonsense" is blatantly inaccurate, when it all literally ties to him. And to double down on it, while the narrative could have easily framed him as an opportunity, it chooses to go with the "Ah, it's all coming up together" 5D nonsense.

[Makorus]

Another "Oh COME ON" For real, as if making the Helm of Domination and the Lich King itself, which are core to the narrative since War3, simply part of the new retroactively introduced villain plan isn't the problem.

You keep saying "the hints are there" as if that was the issue, when the problem is how it reframes everything that happened to be connected to an until now unknown character -as in, an actual character, not a nebulous entity without actual characterization-

As if it's not clear, a lore precedent does not by itself make a coherent or even compelling narrative; one of the major issues with Zovaal as a villain is that it connects EVERYTHING to his plan, that's what being "responsible" for means.



It's literally factual, man; He made the Helm and the Dreadlords are on his side, he has also made the one behind Sylvanas naming of Warchief, also made a deal with her on WotLK that only now we knew off.

Saying that him being responsible for everything is "factually incorrect nonsense" is blatantly inaccurate, when it all literally ties to him. And to double down on it, while the narrative could have easily framed him as an opportunity, it chooses to go with the "Ah, it's all coming up together" 5D nonsense.

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

That retcon actually makes the games story better. Other than that, people bitch about "Oh, the Jailer is behind everything", when before that, it was "Oh, the Burning Legion is behind everything". It's new therefore bad though.

[Nyel]

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

That retcon actually makes the games story better. Other than that, people bitch about "Oh, the Jailer is behind everything", when before that, it was "Oh, the Burning Legion is behind everything". It's new therefore bad though.

I can get behind some things the Jailer supposedly has done. But I can and will never get behind the idea that the Jailer tricked Sargeras. That must be the single dumbest thing Blizzard ever tried to force feed us regarding WoW lore.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

If that happens they will have a 9.3

Folks forget most final patches are 12-14 months long. February 2022 - February-April 2023 would be entirely in character for Blizzard.

[Teriz]

[
Fighting timetravelling clockwork dragons powered by the souls of demons would be pretty rad. Dunno if that could carry an entire expansion, though.

Honestly I think the TMD could represent the infinite dragon flight.

[Therougetitan]

I was pretty sure BfA was announced after Antorus

BfA was announced after 7.3. Anotrus was released after BfA announcement. During Legion they released the raid a couple months after the zone content was released.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

People don't seem to know what "plot hole" means. Tell me, how is this a "plot hole"?

[Sondrelk]

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

That retcon actually makes the games story better. Other than that, people bitch about "Oh, the Jailer is behind everything", when before that, it was "Oh, the Burning Legion is behind everything". It's new therefore bad though.

It makes it better in theory, in execution it makes the game worse.
The last iteration of the Lich King plot was dumb, but it at least made some semblance on sense that the Burning Legion would make a chaotic evil entity and send it to Azeroth as revenge/preparation for a new invasion. That said entity eventually decided to do something else is a dumb thing to not anticipate, but at least it was a cohesive plot.

The new one does make some more sense in that Zovaal gains far more from the whole Helm of Domination deal, but it still requires Sargeras and the Burning Legion to accept the plan to begin with, and more importantly doesnt properly do anyting with said plotline once its established.

Zovaal comes out from nowhere. Even retconned there isnt really anything of substance to pull from. And even then the character is so vacous and devoid of personality that the story would not change, and indeed would probably have improved, if Zovaal was replaced with just the basic concept of the cosmic force of Death. At least then we wouldnt have had to accept this hitherto unknown character as this diabolical chessmaster that has pulled unseen strings since WC3, arrives in a grandiose fashion, and then disappears just as quickly as he appeared.
Zovaal was unknown before Shadowlands, then got crowbarred into the plot wherever he fit, and once the raid is over will probably never be mentioned ever again. So in the grand scheme this expansion and his character has only diminished the narrative, not added to it.

[Hitei]

Another "Oh COME ON" For real, as if making the Helm of Domination and the Lich King itself, which are core to the narrative since War3, simply part of the new retroactively introduced villain plan isn't the problem.

You keep saying "the hints are there" as if that was the issue, when the problem is how it reframes everything that happened to be connected to an until now unknown character -as in, an actual character, not a nebulous entity without actual characterization-

As if it's not clear, a lore precedent does not by itself make a coherent or even compelling narrative; one of the major issues with Zovaal as a villain is that it connects EVERYTHING to his plan, that's what being "responsible" for means.

No it isn't? Do you think that literally every event that humans, dwarves, gnomes, or mogu have ever been involved in is the responsibility of the Old Gods because they are connected to every character of those races by virtue of being retconned into the reason why they are flesh? Somehow, the first, second and third wars are just all retroactively part of the Old Gods' plans and don't matter, because it was the Old Gods who gave humans free will and made them what they are?

I also really, really wish you'd stop using "everything that happened" to mean "Why wearing the Helm of domination makes people evil" and "what sylvanas' endgame was"

It's literally factual, man; He made the Helm and the Dreadlords are on his side, he has also made the one behind Sylvanas naming of Warchief, also made a deal with her on WotLK that only now we knew off.

Saying that him being responsible for everything is "factually incorrect nonsense" is blatantly inaccurate, when it all literally ties to him. And to double down on it, while the narrative could have easily framed him as an opportunity, it chooses to go with the "Ah, it's all coming up together" 5D nonsense.

As already said, it was never clear whose side the Dreadlords were on. They've been doing shady shit and had their hands in all sorts of pots since WC3. Their original characterization had them manipulating Sargeras, their retconned characterization had them working "under him" but for their own goals, the current iteration is just the exact same as both of those, but now we actually know what some of those goals were and who they actually follow.

It isn't blatantly inaccurate, but I can't be bothered to go line by line through the entirety of warcraft history with you to point out that all he infleunced were a handful of events, and that those events aren't changed by virtue of being his influence, it's just that the events had larger repercussions and motivations than originally written.

I can get behind some things the Jailer supposedly has done. But I can and will never get behind the idea that the Jailer tricked Sargeras. That must be the single dumbest thing Blizzard ever tried to force feed us regarding WoW lore.

Ah yes.

Dreadlords convince Sargeras to use the scourge = totally fine
Death god told Dreadlords to convince Sargeras to use the scourge = hOw CaN thIs bE?

Sargeras uses World Soul to fuel his army = awesome
Sargeras uses World Soul to fuel his army and Dreadlords do shady stuff when he's not paying attention = Absurd