Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

People don't seem to know what "plot hole" means. Tell me, how is this a "plot hole"?

Cynically speaking most people IMO are more upset that they touched Wrath related stuff, not that the retcon makes the story better or not.

It makes it better in theory, in execution it makes the game worse.
The last iteration of the Lich King plot was dumb, but it at least made some semblance on sense that the Burning Legion would make a chaotic evil entity and send it to Azeroth as revenge/preparation for a new invasion. That said entity eventually decided to do something else is a dumb thing to not anticipate, but at least it was a cohesive plot.

Its more explained instead of still not knowing the source of the Helm of Domination and the Lich King. It was just left unknown like a plot thread that would never go anywhere and I've legit seen people seem to go in the direction of leaving things be instead of exploring plot threads. If we didn't we'd have the story go nowhere. Perhaps that isn't what they intend to say but its implied.

The new one does make some more sense in that Zovaal gains far more from the whole Helm of Domination deal, but it still requires Sargeras and the Burning Legion to accept the plan to begin with, and more importantly doesnt properly do anyting with said plotline once its established.

If Kil'Jaeden can manipulate things behind the scenes, so can Zovaal, its not a hard inference to make. This doesn't even include the Sylvanas Teldrassil part though since thats well quite frankly foolish(Not that it happened, I'm ok with it in terms of something big happening). I mean once it was revealed he was behind the Lich King, it came pretty fucking clear that Zovaal offscreen somehow fooled Kil'Jaeden, its just obvious.

Zovaal comes out from nowhere. Even retconned there isnt really anything of substance to pull from. And even then the character is so vacous and devoid of personality that the story would not change, and indeed would probably have improved, if Zovaal was replaced with just the basic concept of the cosmic force of Death. At least then we wouldnt have had to accept this hitherto unknown character as this diabolical chessmaster that has pulled unseen strings since WC3, arrives in a grandiose fashion, and then disappears just as quickly as he appeared.
Zovaal was unknown before Shadowlands, then got crowbarred into the plot wherever he fit, and once the raid is over will probably never be mentioned ever again. So in the grand scheme this expansion and his character has only diminished the narrative, not added to it.

So did a lot of other factions and characters "Come out of nowhere" that isn't an argument. I understand that he goes out quickly sure but can we stop with the "HE POPS OUT OF NOWHERE." The Scourge did the same during WCIII and Northrend but nobody gave a shit. Its really not an issue.

[Teriz]

I too, am a fan of Halo: CE
343 Warcraft Spark will make a fine addition to this franchise.

While sounding science fiction, it's a very real possibility.

If Azeroth is truly damaged after the Jailer's attack, it stands to reason that the Titans would have some sort of failsafe in place to stop her from being fully corrupted. Mother's actions during BFA kind of showed just how extreme those actions could be (we're pretty much viewed as an infestation). We don't know all of the Titan facilities in Azeroth, and some could have been built specifically for the purpose of a last line of defense.

In addition, there's been this occurring "plot" since WoD, and it's run through BFA;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_War

A mechanical force that adopts titan technology, and embraces a goal of destroying organic life on Azeroth in order to save it could be a very formidable adversary.

While some may have issue with it, we've never really faced that type of antagonist before, and it could be an interesting direction to take the story. I know some are already expressing complaints about a dragon story or a cosmic story. This would be something fresh for the franchise.

[Hitei]

While sounding science fiction, it's a very real possibility.

If Azeroth is truly damaged after the Jailer's attack, it stands to reason that the Titans would have some sort of failsafe in place to stop her from being fully corrupted. Mother's actions during BFA kind of showed just how extreme those actions could be (we're pretty much viewed as an infestation). We don't know all of the Titan facilities in Azeroth, and some could have been built specifically for the purpose of a last line of defense.

In addition, there's been this occurring "plot" since WoD, and it's run through BFA;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_War

A mechanical force that adopts titan technology, and embraces a goal of destroying organic life on Azeroth in order to save it could be a very formidable adversary.

While some may have issue with it, we've never really faced that type of antagonist before, and it could be an interesting direction to take the story. I know some are already expressing complaints about a dragon story or a cosmic story. This would be something fresh for the franchise. [/U][/B]

Hello?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Forge_of_Origination
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Reply-Code_Omega

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Cynically speaking most people IMO are more upset that they touched Wrath related stuff, not that the retcon makes the story better or not.

The primary concern is that the lore has a vast breadth of plotlines to produce—the retroactive addition of Zovaal, as opposed to the interweaving of him with a threat to build him up, is a lazy means of hamfisting his supposed importance to the story. It creates a weak hook by reusing a plot that had been finished and was fully-understood now.

It's not that he "came out of nowhere"—it's that he came out of nowhere with a retroactive connection to a preexisting story.

[Teriz]

Hello?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Forge_of_Origination
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Reply-Code_Omega

I'm aware of the Algalon and the Forge of Origination. Neither were the main antagonists of their respective expansions, they were just ancient, yet dangerous relics. I'm talking about a more physical force, such as an army marching across Azeroth acting as the main antangoists. Sort of like Ultron from Avengers;



That is the type of main antagonist we have never faced before. It could very well be those machines participating in "The War" who take up the idea that Azeroth is infested and take it upon themselves to eradicate organic life. How they do that would be anyone's guess, but Blizzard has found more wacky ways to get a plot moving in the past.

[Makorus]

I can get behind some things the Jailer supposedly has done. But I can and will never get behind the idea that the Jailer tricked Sargeras. That must be the single dumbest thing Blizzard ever tried to force feed us regarding WoW lore.

I agree. That, and his plan relying on us beating Argus is incredibly stupid.

[Akta]

I agree. That, and his plan relying on us beating Argus is incredibly stupid.

is not like it was his plan he just was lucky

[Luck4]

I have this weird feeling that the overall hype will die out before they announce 10.0, the "coming weeks" could be anything between 2 to 12 weeks...

I think they want to announce the expansion ASAP, but the expansion is so early in development that they don't have much to show.

[Makorus]

People don't seem to know what "plot hole" means. Tell me, how is this a "plot hole"?

The demons making a Helmet imbued with death magic, something which is not their domain at all (and later on would be one of the forces opposed to them), to control an Undead army, which they would have no control over if Ner'zhul broke free somehow and are afraid of, and to punish Ner'zhul is incredibly idiotic.

Then, you also got the issue of Frostmourne. At first, Ner'zhul crafted it somehow, even though he was entirely stationary, without a body, in the armour. Later on, it get retconned to be crafted by the Dreadlords along with the armour.

Frostmourne was always an incredibly out of place item for the Burning Legion to have. It was a remnant of the time when the Burning Legion wasn't "The Fel Army(TM)" and pretty much did anything. When the game moved onward and specialized the Burning Legion a bit more, it made more sense to move the origin of Frostmourne.

It makes absolutely zero sense for the Burning Legion to craft the strongest Death artifact ever, yet never show anything else on that level ever again.

[Revamp Man]

Folks forget most final patches are 12-14 months long. February 2022 - February-April 2023 would be entirely in character for Blizzard.

You say most but I think the last one that was 12+ was WoD because of scrapped content

Just make a short raid and a dumb story in a zone the size of Mechagon

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I feel like I have blue balls waiting for a potential announcement of something not yet confirmed, so I should have no reasonable expectation for any form of announcement on anything.


And yet... blue balls.

[Nyel]

is not like it was his plan he just was lucky

Which makes it even worse. All of his grand plot 4D chess scheming is completely relying on luck. It’s just so incredibly stupid.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I feel like I have blue balls waiting for a potential announcement of something not yet confirmed, so I should have no reasonable expectation for any form of announcement on anything.


And yet... blue balls.

Patience grasshopper

[Nyel]

You say most but I think the last one that was 12+ was WoD because of scrapped content

Just make a short raid and a dumb story in a zone the size of Mechagon

That would take weeks of their time and delay 10.0 even further. It’s beyond me how anyone can think developing 9.3 wouldn’t slow down 10.0 even more. They need less focus on Shadowlands and more on 10.0 when they are delayed so much. And that’s exactly what we get and why we only have two content patches, because they moved resources from this expansion to the next months, heck maybe even a year ago.

[Ersula]

Folks forget most final patches are 12-14 months long. February 2022 - February-April 2023 would be entirely in character for Blizzard.

No patch has ever been longer than 10 months.

[Revamp Man]

I have this weird feeling that the overall hype will die out before they announce 10.0, the "coming weeks" could be anything between 2 to 12 weeks...

I think they want to announce the expansion ASAP, but the expansion is so early in development that they don't have much to show.

In regards to the coming weeks
With blizzard it normally means months lol

As far as the next expansion I’m certain they have at least a trailer but putting together a presentation currently is likely rough

They had the blizzconline stuff canceled and are likely holding it for the replacement which will likely be a livestream of premade videos

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No patch has ever been longer than 10 months.

I mean 5.4 and 6.2 were both over a year but that was all a shit show

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That would take weeks of their time and delay 10.0 even further. It’s beyond me how anyone can think developing 9.3 wouldn’t slow down 10.0 even more. They need less focus on Shadowlands and more on 10.0 when they are delayed so much. And that’s exactly what we get and why we only have two content patches, because they moved resources from this expansion to the next months, heck maybe even a year ago.

Do you think the same people working on patches for SL have been working on 10.0?

You realize development on it started before SL released

[Relapses]

No patch has ever been longer than 10 months.

5.4 release date: September 10, 2013
6.0 release date: October 14, 2014
6.2 release date: June 23rd, 2015
7.0 release date: July 19th, 2016

Hmm...

[Therougetitan]

No patch has ever been longer than 10 months.

I am guessing you are counting Ruby Sanctum to interrupt ICC's 12 months or 6.2.5 for 6.2's 14 months or the .5 patch for 8.3's 10 months. Which is doesn't matter. The point is that it is a long content drought the minor patches didn't help. But even if you try to ignore all that 5.4 still lasted 14 months with no content drops.

[Akta]

Which makes it even worse. All of his grand plot 4D chess scheming is completely relying on luck. It’s just so incredibly stupid.

never was a 4d chess scheming, in thousands of years he tried many ways to reach his goal until he was lucky

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The demons making a Helmet imbued with death magic, something which is not their domain at all (and later on would be one of the forces opposed to them), to control an Undead army, which they would have no control over if Ner'zhul broke free somehow and are afraid of, and to punish Ner'zhul is incredibly idiotic.

Then, you also got the issue of Frostmourne. At first, Ner'zhul crafted it somehow, even though he was entirely stationary, without a body, in the armour. Later on, it get retconned to be crafted by the Dreadlords along with the armour.

Frostmourne was always an incredibly out of place item for the Burning Legion to have. It was a remnant of the time when the Burning Legion wasn't "The Fel Army(TM)" and pretty much did anything. When the game moved onward and specialized the Burning Legion a bit more, it made more sense to move the origin of Frostmourne.

It makes absolutely zero sense for the Burning Legion to craft the strongest Death artifact ever, yet never show anything else on that level ever again.

That's not a "plot hole". That's what I was being pedantic about, not that I was wholly disagreeing—a "plot hole" usually refers to, say, the "how" of something, or something which is not addressed. It is an actual flaw in the narrative, not the quality of the narrative in itself.

Furthermore, why use Zovaal and not Yogg-Saron, who had already been long-established and connected to a real, preexisting plotline that was being explored? He would solve the problem well enough—this also opens another connection with the Void. Wouldn't it be easy to simply say the Legion used necromancy because it is not susceptible to the Void? We've also seen no real conflict between Death and Fel up until Shdowlands showed Maldraxxus acting against them. Before then, it seemed like Necromancy was very much controlled by them—aside from Argus, we see Necrolytes originated from them.

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never was a 4d chess scheming, in thousands of years he tried many ways to reach his goal until he was lucky

That's something I agree on—I think it is odd that people seem to ignore this. Although it is true that it is an asspull they decided "AKTHUALLY HE DID THE SCOURGE GUYS!!! HE'S SUPER IMPORTANT!!!! YOU HAVE TO CARE ABOUT HIM NOW!!!", I do think that people overblow it. He didn't secretly scheme and plot the whole narrative just to get one little blonde guy to steal something.

I think it's an asspull simply because it hamfists relevancy to the Jailer. However much he is an asspull villain, he is not the retroactive super-genius. I do think that implicating him in Sargeras' corruption and the Dreadlords is what does really put me off—I honestly would be able to suspend my disbelief if it were just the Scourge, but they simply went too far. If the Dreadlords simply were revealed to have been in exile like was previously suggested until they decided "lol no actually we were working for denny", I'd probably have forgiven and forgotten this plot.