Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makorus]

Another "Oh COME ON" For real, as if making the Helm of Domination and the Lich King itself, which are core to the narrative since War3, simply part of the new retroactively introduced villain plan isn't the problem.

You keep saying "the hints are there" as if that was the issue, when the problem is how it reframes everything that happened to be connected to an until now unknown character -as in, an actual character, not a nebulous entity without actual characterization-

As if it's not clear, a lore precedent does not by itself make a coherent or even compelling narrative; one of the major issues with Zovaal as a villain is that it connects EVERYTHING to his plan, that's what being "responsible" for means.



It's literally factual, man; He made the Helm and the Dreadlords are on his side, he has also made the one behind Sylvanas naming of Warchief, also made a deal with her on WotLK that only now we knew off.

Saying that him being responsible for everything is "factually incorrect nonsense" is blatantly inaccurate, when it all literally ties to him. And to double down on it, while the narrative could have easily framed him as an opportunity, it chooses to go with the "Ah, it's all coming up together" 5D nonsense.

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

That retcon actually makes the games story better. Other than that, people bitch about "Oh, the Jailer is behind everything", when before that, it was "Oh, the Burning Legion is behind everything". It's new therefore bad though.

[Nyel]

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

That retcon actually makes the games story better. Other than that, people bitch about "Oh, the Jailer is behind everything", when before that, it was "Oh, the Burning Legion is behind everything". It's new therefore bad though.

I can get behind some things the Jailer supposedly has done. But I can and will never get behind the idea that the Jailer tricked Sargeras. That must be the single dumbest thing Blizzard ever tried to force feed us regarding WoW lore.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

If that happens they will have a 9.3

Folks forget most final patches are 12-14 months long. February 2022 - February-April 2023 would be entirely in character for Blizzard.

[Teriz]

[
Fighting timetravelling clockwork dragons powered by the souls of demons would be pretty rad. Dunno if that could carry an entire expansion, though.

Honestly I think the TMD could represent the infinite dragon flight.

[Therougetitan]

I was pretty sure BfA was announced after Antorus

BfA was announced after 7.3. Anotrus was released after BfA announcement. During Legion they released the raid a couple months after the zone content was released.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

People don't seem to know what "plot hole" means. Tell me, how is this a "plot hole"?

[Sondrelk]

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

That retcon actually makes the games story better. Other than that, people bitch about "Oh, the Jailer is behind everything", when before that, it was "Oh, the Burning Legion is behind everything". It's new therefore bad though.

It makes it better in theory, in execution it makes the game worse.
The last iteration of the Lich King plot was dumb, but it at least made some semblance on sense that the Burning Legion would make a chaotic evil entity and send it to Azeroth as revenge/preparation for a new invasion. That said entity eventually decided to do something else is a dumb thing to not anticipate, but at least it was a cohesive plot.

The new one does make some more sense in that Zovaal gains far more from the whole Helm of Domination deal, but it still requires Sargeras and the Burning Legion to accept the plan to begin with, and more importantly doesnt properly do anyting with said plotline once its established.

Zovaal comes out from nowhere. Even retconned there isnt really anything of substance to pull from. And even then the character is so vacous and devoid of personality that the story would not change, and indeed would probably have improved, if Zovaal was replaced with just the basic concept of the cosmic force of Death. At least then we wouldnt have had to accept this hitherto unknown character as this diabolical chessmaster that has pulled unseen strings since WC3, arrives in a grandiose fashion, and then disappears just as quickly as he appeared.
Zovaal was unknown before Shadowlands, then got crowbarred into the plot wherever he fit, and once the raid is over will probably never be mentioned ever again. So in the grand scheme this expansion and his character has only diminished the narrative, not added to it.

[Hitei]

Another "Oh COME ON" For real, as if making the Helm of Domination and the Lich King itself, which are core to the narrative since War3, simply part of the new retroactively introduced villain plan isn't the problem.

You keep saying "the hints are there" as if that was the issue, when the problem is how it reframes everything that happened to be connected to an until now unknown character -as in, an actual character, not a nebulous entity without actual characterization-

As if it's not clear, a lore precedent does not by itself make a coherent or even compelling narrative; one of the major issues with Zovaal as a villain is that it connects EVERYTHING to his plan, that's what being "responsible" for means.

No it isn't? Do you think that literally every event that humans, dwarves, gnomes, or mogu have ever been involved in is the responsibility of the Old Gods because they are connected to every character of those races by virtue of being retconned into the reason why they are flesh? Somehow, the first, second and third wars are just all retroactively part of the Old Gods' plans and don't matter, because it was the Old Gods who gave humans free will and made them what they are?

I also really, really wish you'd stop using "everything that happened" to mean "Why wearing the Helm of domination makes people evil" and "what sylvanas' endgame was"

It's literally factual, man; He made the Helm and the Dreadlords are on his side, he has also made the one behind Sylvanas naming of Warchief, also made a deal with her on WotLK that only now we knew off.

Saying that him being responsible for everything is "factually incorrect nonsense" is blatantly inaccurate, when it all literally ties to him. And to double down on it, while the narrative could have easily framed him as an opportunity, it chooses to go with the "Ah, it's all coming up together" 5D nonsense.

As already said, it was never clear whose side the Dreadlords were on. They've been doing shady shit and had their hands in all sorts of pots since WC3. Their original characterization had them manipulating Sargeras, their retconned characterization had them working "under him" but for their own goals, the current iteration is just the exact same as both of those, but now we actually know what some of those goals were and who they actually follow.

It isn't blatantly inaccurate, but I can't be bothered to go line by line through the entirety of warcraft history with you to point out that all he infleunced were a handful of events, and that those events aren't changed by virtue of being his influence, it's just that the events had larger repercussions and motivations than originally written.

I can get behind some things the Jailer supposedly has done. But I can and will never get behind the idea that the Jailer tricked Sargeras. That must be the single dumbest thing Blizzard ever tried to force feed us regarding WoW lore.

Ah yes.

Dreadlords convince Sargeras to use the scourge = totally fine
Death god told Dreadlords to convince Sargeras to use the scourge = hOw CaN thIs bE?

Sargeras uses World Soul to fuel his army = awesome
Sargeras uses World Soul to fuel his army and Dreadlords do shady stuff when he's not paying attention = Absurd

[Aeluron Lightsong]

People don't seem to know what "plot hole" means. Tell me, how is this a "plot hole"?

Cynically speaking most people IMO are more upset that they touched Wrath related stuff, not that the retcon makes the story better or not.

It makes it better in theory, in execution it makes the game worse.
The last iteration of the Lich King plot was dumb, but it at least made some semblance on sense that the Burning Legion would make a chaotic evil entity and send it to Azeroth as revenge/preparation for a new invasion. That said entity eventually decided to do something else is a dumb thing to not anticipate, but at least it was a cohesive plot.

Its more explained instead of still not knowing the source of the Helm of Domination and the Lich King. It was just left unknown like a plot thread that would never go anywhere and I've legit seen people seem to go in the direction of leaving things be instead of exploring plot threads. If we didn't we'd have the story go nowhere. Perhaps that isn't what they intend to say but its implied.

The new one does make some more sense in that Zovaal gains far more from the whole Helm of Domination deal, but it still requires Sargeras and the Burning Legion to accept the plan to begin with, and more importantly doesnt properly do anyting with said plotline once its established.

If Kil'Jaeden can manipulate things behind the scenes, so can Zovaal, its not a hard inference to make. This doesn't even include the Sylvanas Teldrassil part though since thats well quite frankly foolish(Not that it happened, I'm ok with it in terms of something big happening). I mean once it was revealed he was behind the Lich King, it came pretty fucking clear that Zovaal offscreen somehow fooled Kil'Jaeden, its just obvious.

Zovaal comes out from nowhere. Even retconned there isnt really anything of substance to pull from. And even then the character is so vacous and devoid of personality that the story would not change, and indeed would probably have improved, if Zovaal was replaced with just the basic concept of the cosmic force of Death. At least then we wouldnt have had to accept this hitherto unknown character as this diabolical chessmaster that has pulled unseen strings since WC3, arrives in a grandiose fashion, and then disappears just as quickly as he appeared.
Zovaal was unknown before Shadowlands, then got crowbarred into the plot wherever he fit, and once the raid is over will probably never be mentioned ever again. So in the grand scheme this expansion and his character has only diminished the narrative, not added to it.

So did a lot of other factions and characters "Come out of nowhere" that isn't an argument. I understand that he goes out quickly sure but can we stop with the "HE POPS OUT OF NOWHERE." The Scourge did the same during WCIII and Northrend but nobody gave a shit. Its really not an issue.

[Teriz]

I too, am a fan of Halo: CE
343 Warcraft Spark will make a fine addition to this franchise.

While sounding science fiction, it's a very real possibility.

If Azeroth is truly damaged after the Jailer's attack, it stands to reason that the Titans would have some sort of failsafe in place to stop her from being fully corrupted. Mother's actions during BFA kind of showed just how extreme those actions could be (we're pretty much viewed as an infestation). We don't know all of the Titan facilities in Azeroth, and some could have been built specifically for the purpose of a last line of defense.

In addition, there's been this occurring "plot" since WoD, and it's run through BFA;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_War

A mechanical force that adopts titan technology, and embraces a goal of destroying organic life on Azeroth in order to save it could be a very formidable adversary.

While some may have issue with it, we've never really faced that type of antagonist before, and it could be an interesting direction to take the story. I know some are already expressing complaints about a dragon story or a cosmic story. This would be something fresh for the franchise.

[Hitei]

While sounding science fiction, it's a very real possibility.

If Azeroth is truly damaged after the Jailer's attack, it stands to reason that the Titans would have some sort of failsafe in place to stop her from being fully corrupted. Mother's actions during BFA kind of showed just how extreme those actions could be (we're pretty much viewed as an infestation). We don't know all of the Titan facilities in Azeroth, and some could have been built specifically for the purpose of a last line of defense.

In addition, there's been this occurring "plot" since WoD, and it's run through BFA;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_War

A mechanical force that adopts titan technology, and embraces a goal of destroying organic life on Azeroth in order to save it could be a very formidable adversary.

While some may have issue with it, we've never really faced that type of antagonist before, and it could be an interesting direction to take the story. I know some are already expressing complaints about a dragon story or a cosmic story. This would be something fresh for the franchise. [/U][/B]

Hello?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Forge_of_Origination
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Reply-Code_Omega

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Cynically speaking most people IMO are more upset that they touched Wrath related stuff, not that the retcon makes the story better or not.

The primary concern is that the lore has a vast breadth of plotlines to produce—the retroactive addition of Zovaal, as opposed to the interweaving of him with a threat to build him up, is a lazy means of hamfisting his supposed importance to the story. It creates a weak hook by reusing a plot that had been finished and was fully-understood now.

It's not that he "came out of nowhere"—it's that he came out of nowhere with a retroactive connection to a preexisting story.

[Teriz]

Hello?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Forge_of_Origination
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Reply-Code_Omega

I'm aware of the Algalon and the Forge of Origination. Neither were the main antagonists of their respective expansions, they were just ancient, yet dangerous relics. I'm talking about a more physical force, such as an army marching across Azeroth acting as the main antangoists. Sort of like Ultron from Avengers;



That is the type of main antagonist we have never faced before. It could very well be those machines participating in "The War" who take up the idea that Azeroth is infested and take it upon themselves to eradicate organic life. How they do that would be anyone's guess, but Blizzard has found more wacky ways to get a plot moving in the past.

[Makorus]

I can get behind some things the Jailer supposedly has done. But I can and will never get behind the idea that the Jailer tricked Sargeras. That must be the single dumbest thing Blizzard ever tried to force feed us regarding WoW lore.

I agree. That, and his plan relying on us beating Argus is incredibly stupid.

[Akta]

I agree. That, and his plan relying on us beating Argus is incredibly stupid.

is not like it was his plan he just was lucky

[Luck4]

I have this weird feeling that the overall hype will die out before they announce 10.0, the "coming weeks" could be anything between 2 to 12 weeks...

I think they want to announce the expansion ASAP, but the expansion is so early in development that they don't have much to show.

[Makorus]

People don't seem to know what "plot hole" means. Tell me, how is this a "plot hole"?

The demons making a Helmet imbued with death magic, something which is not their domain at all (and later on would be one of the forces opposed to them), to control an Undead army, which they would have no control over if Ner'zhul broke free somehow and are afraid of, and to punish Ner'zhul is incredibly idiotic.

Then, you also got the issue of Frostmourne. At first, Ner'zhul crafted it somehow, even though he was entirely stationary, without a body, in the armour. Later on, it get retconned to be crafted by the Dreadlords along with the armour.

Frostmourne was always an incredibly out of place item for the Burning Legion to have. It was a remnant of the time when the Burning Legion wasn't "The Fel Army(TM)" and pretty much did anything. When the game moved onward and specialized the Burning Legion a bit more, it made more sense to move the origin of Frostmourne.

It makes absolutely zero sense for the Burning Legion to craft the strongest Death artifact ever, yet never show anything else on that level ever again.

[Revamp Man]

Folks forget most final patches are 12-14 months long. February 2022 - February-April 2023 would be entirely in character for Blizzard.

You say most but I think the last one that was 12+ was WoD because of scrapped content

Just make a short raid and a dumb story in a zone the size of Mechagon

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I feel like I have blue balls waiting for a potential announcement of something not yet confirmed, so I should have no reasonable expectation for any form of announcement on anything.


And yet... blue balls.

[Nyel]

is not like it was his plan he just was lucky

Which makes it even worse. All of his grand plot 4D chess scheming is completely relying on luck. It’s just so incredibly stupid.