Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Khaza-R]

never was a 4d chess scheming, in thousands of years he tried many ways to reach his goal until he was lucky

Yet he says stuff like :

Can your mortal minds fathom?
How long I have waited.
Every event set in motion,
Every pawn put into play.

Doesn't sound like someone who just got lucky. Sounds like someone who thought they had a calculated plan that came to fruition.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I mean, the whole "the Burning Legion made the Lich King for whatever reason" has been such an incredibly stupid plot point since forever, was a plothole in of itself since that got introduced.

That retcon actually makes the games story better. Other than that, people bitch about "Oh, the Jailer is behind everything", when before that, it was "Oh, the Burning Legion is behind everything". It's new therefore bad though.

But that's exactly the problem, not because something makes sense in the lore it automatically becomes a good narrative.

Again, the problems isn't that these events are now connected necessarily, but how they are used to basically tie up EVERYTHING *but* the Old Gods to one Singular villain's plan. Because it's literally being framed as such, a "long awaited plan finally coming to fruition".

- - - Updated - - -

No it literally sounds like someone that has put countless plans in to motion waiting for one of them to land. Zovaal exists outside of time he could set an infinite amount of plans into motion because of how the Shadowlands work in that sense.

And how cool would it have been if we actually were shown this, instead of being framed as him being on top of everything? Because let's not gaslight ourselves, the "Every Event Sent in motion, every pawn put in place" clearly is trying to sell that everything is part of the same masterplan.

[Catastrophy349]

This Twitter thread is pretty neat. https://twitter.com/FaizShaikh7681/s...473536/photo/2

I honestly can't freaking wait for that AAA Warcraft mobile game. Wild Rift for LoL is amazing and I would love to see my Night Elves and Dwarves receive the same treatment (in terms of quality on a mobile phone).

Thanks for posting this tweet!

[huth]

And how cool would it have been if we actually were shown this, instead of being framed as him being on top of everything? Because let's not gaslight ourselves, the "Every Event Sent in motion, every pawn put in place" clearly is trying to sell that everything is part of the same masterplan.

Disagree. The interpretation that he set countless plans into motion and simply capitalised on the ones that worked out to his favour makes far more sense.
He previously made it clear that the Lich King thing didn't really work the way he wanted it to, so it's clear that not all plans worked out for him, and not all pawns ended up being useful.

Us not seeing all the failed plans is simply a matter of there only being a limited amount of time to tell the story, so the focus is going to be on the plans that actually worked and are thus of concern to us.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

No it isn't? Do you think that literally every event that humans, dwarves, gnomes, or mogu have ever been involved in is the responsibility of the Old Gods because they are connected to every character of those races by virtue of being retconned into the reason why they are flesh? Somehow, the first, second and third wars are just all retroactively part of the Old Gods' plans and don't matter, because it was the Old Gods who gave humans free will and made them what they are?

I also really, really wish you'd stop using "everything that happened" to mean "Why wearing the Helm of domination makes people evil" and "what sylvanas' endgame was"

That's being disingenuous, and you know it. When I say he's being made responsible for everything major happening, I am not being facetious or hyperbolic.

Nathrezim, Agents of Denathrius who is in league with Zovaal, are the ones that corrupted Sargeras. These eons of manipulation, that lead to the War of the Ancients, then the Orcs attacking Azeroth, so the 1st, 2nd and 3rd war because oh, the Helm was ALSO created by Zovaal. Then he starts manipulating Sylvanas, and then in Legion, the plan started by the Nathrezim comes to fruition, and Argus soul is finally used to break the Arbiter.

So the WHOLE story of the Burning Legion, thus everything they did, was a manipulation to be used as pawns for Zovaal's plans.

Only stuff related to the old gods gets out of the "everything."

As already said, it was never clear whose side the Dreadlords were on. They've been doing shady shit and had their hands in all sorts of pots since WC3. Their original characterization had them manipulating Sargeras, their retconned characterization had them working "under him" but for their own goals, the current iteration is just the exact same as both of those, but now we actually know what some of those goals were and who they actually follow.

It isn't blatantly inaccurate, but I can't be bothered to go line by line through the entirety of warcraft history with you to point out that all he infleunced were a handful of events, and that those events aren't changed by virtue of being his influence, it's just that the events had larger repercussions and motivations than originally written.

Shadowlands is literally telling us that Zovaal and Denathrius were working together all this time. It literally frames the whole Burning Legion as pawns used to fulfill Zovaal's plan of disabling the Arbiter.

That is not just "influence" it's purpose. Sargeras was totally on the blind, but Argus getting killed and destroying the Arbiter, THAT WAS THE PLAN.

It would be very different if Sargeras whole thing was just something influenced by Nathrezim. The problem lies with the fact that Sargeras manipulation by the Nathrezim WAS to create an entity like Argus and use them to disable the Arbiter and help free Zovaal.

And why does it suck's narratively? Because basically takes all the previous threats and makes them part of a previously at best obliquely alluded character, who never had ANY characterization until this very expansion.

How it's hard to get that "character that appears 25 years later in a story and that was twist behind everything" is bad writing?

[Syegfryed]

The demons making a Helmet imbued with death magic, something which is not their domain at all (and later on would be one of the forces opposed to them), to control an Undead army, which they would have no control over if Ner'zhul broke free somehow and are afraid of, and to punish Ner'zhul is incredibly idiotic.

It wasn't, rly, you talk like beings one domain can only use power of their domain, we knew for a fact Kil'jaden was a powerful magician, he would know about necromancy.

Using the necromancy and the scourge to weaken azeroth, was a good way to masquerade the legion, who would knew the demons were behind it? putting the janitor and the dreadlords into it make all the events from wc3 and alter be something dumb

It makes absolutely zero sense for the Burning Legion to craft the strongest Death artifact ever, yet never show anything else on that level ever again.

its more that the artifact gained more power as more souls it took, and the LK had enough time to control a lot of people, the power of it its was more of "being able to have a huge army" not making the LK itself a god-like entity.

There is many artifacts with similar power, like we saw in the artifacts weapons, it was just tuned down for gameplay purposes.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Disagree. The interpretation that he set countless plans into motion and simply capitalised on the ones that worked out to his favour makes far more sense.

Well DUH, it really is the better interpretation. The point is that's not how the story has framed it at any point. It's a narrative issue, not a lore one.

He previously made it clear that the Lich King thing didn't really work the way he wanted it to, so it's clear that not all plans worked out for him, and not all pawns ended up being useful.

Us not seeing all the failed plans is simply a matter of there only being a limited amount of time to tell the story, so the focus is going to be on the plans that actually worked and are thus of concern to us.

And THAT'S why it is an issue of framing and characterization, because nothing on the way he acts or presents himself... even suggests that. That's why he sucks as a villain as well.

Like, we could have gotten that if, imagine, Zovaal was actually elated that this was the one that worked.

No, instead we get the boring thanos "this was inevitable" characterization where he pretends it was all part of his plan.

[Jokubas]

@Jokubas fantastic breakdown of the logos.

Thanks. In all these leak seasons and fake fan logos I had never really looked at the real ones in such depth before. It was fun noticing all the little details I never had before.

I was saying not that long ago about how I didn't really know what to say until we got something like the Kul Tiras textures, but the logo discussions have been good enough for me. I didn't even like Empire of Dragons when we first got it, but the more we dissected it, the more I started to appreciate the details in it as well. I thought the theming in its border was more common, too, before I went back and looked at the older fakes and realized how much simpler they were by comparison.

Even that Origin of Dragons logo has interesting elements to it, for me, and I'm curious as to the story behind the decisions. The "W" and "C" are more or less the normal Warcraft letters. but the rest of them have been subtly changed. First, all of them have been sized up to match the "W". Then, while the bottom half of them is more or less the normal font for Warcraft, the upper halves have been changed to be flat on top. Also, the "A"s now connect to the following letter, which is a neat touch. There's a simple effect and blurry texture on the letters, and the Origin of Dragons pairs poorly with it, but I don't mind the font/design itself.

I'm also trying to enjoy this while I can because I'm not exactly looking forward to any dragon-focused expansion myself.

The Shadowlands leak looked impressive (and looking back on it, we didn't really get anything like the building shown in it, did we?)

I wondered about this myself awhile back and did some comparisons. It's actually pretty close to some of the buildings in Bastion, it's just that the concept art creates an impression that doesn't match what's in game.

The concept art, at least to me, looks like the magical mirage of a palace in the middle of a desert, but it's actually just one of the Kyrian structures floating over the grassy fields that have a sandy-gold cast to them. If I recall, the building's design is actually matched fairly closely to a location in game, but most Kyrian structures tend to be these weird sort of facades, which is not what you'd assume from the concept art.

And how cool would it have been if we actually were shown this, instead of being framed as him being on top of everything?

To me, this is the biggest disappointment of Shadowlands. There's a lot of things I wish were done differently, but when it comes to Zovaal's plot, we really needed to see what he was involved in. Retcon or no, it would have felt so much more powerful to actually see how the context of old events was being expanded. There was a lot of controversy over how little we knew about what the villains were trying to achieve, but we also didn't really learn anything about how they got to where they were which should have been fair game. I was really looking forward to us examining these old plots and loose threads through a new lens, but for the most part we're left to assume.

[huth]

And THAT'S why it is an issue of framing and characterization, because nothing on the way he acts or presents himself... even suggests that. That's why he sucks as a villain as well.

Like, we could have gotten that if, imagine, Zovaal was actually elated that this was the one that worked.

No, instead we get the boring thanos "this was inevitable" characterization where he pretends it was all part of his plan.

Or, you know, he could just point out the times when it didn't work. Besides, with this approach it was inevitable and part of the (overarching) plan. Fire a shotgun enough and eventually you'll hit something. That doesn't make him not an opportunist, though. It just means his grand plan was largely based on trying everything and going with what happens to work out.

You're pretty much just ignoring everything that contradicts your assumptions then claim there is no evidence to the contrary.

[Akta]

Yet he says stuff like :

Can your mortal minds fathom?
How long I have waited.
Every event set in motion,
Every pawn put into play.

Doesn't sound like someone who just got lucky. Sounds like someone who thought they had a calculated plan that came to fruition.

none of the quotes confirm your opinion lol , if anything this confirm what i say

[Noxulos]

Expansion Fluff
Daggers can now be transmogrified to fist weapons.

Gloves may now be transmogrified separately for left and right hands.

Legion Legendary weapons can now show enchantment effects.

Worgens can now hide their weapon appearance and rely on their claws.

Worgen Druids have been given the [Glyph of Cursed Might] and can retain their natural shape in Cat form. Cat Form is renamed to Lupine Form when used.

Worgens may now choose to automatically retain their Human form while mounted.

Humans may now select a Slim body type.

Humans and Kul Tirans have received an assortment of Tattoo options.

Male Humans have received a new extra-long beard option: The Forgotten Cut

Mechagnomes have received three new body color schemes: Fel Mint Green, Fireball Red and Lemonade Steel.

Dark Iron Dwarves may now select an Extinguished option for their hair, replacing embers with smoke.

Male Dwarves have received two new beard options: Body-length and Keg Wrapped.

Female Dwarves have received a new beard option: Power Braids

Mag’har Orcs have received an assortment of facial disfigurement options.

Undead can now select a Hunched or Upright stance.

Vulpera can now choose between three types of tails.

[Gloriandus]

Here's what a "Dragonsworn" class could appear like. Source: https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/hear...-2-patch-notes

[Teriz]

Here's what a "Dragonsworn" class could appear like. Source: https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/hear...-2-patch-notes

Reminds me a bit of Alexstraza from HotS;

https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Alexstrasza

IMO, Alexstraza should be the blueprint for a Dragon-based class.

[Hitei]

Nathrezim, Agents of Denathrius who is in league with Zovaal, are the ones that corrupted Sargeras. These eons of manipulation, that lead to the War of the Ancients, then the Orcs attacking Azeroth, so the 1st, 2nd and 3rd war because oh, the Helm was ALSO created by Zovaal. Then he starts manipulating Sylvanas, and then in Legion, the plan started by the Nathrezim comes to fruition, and Argus soul is finally used to break the Arbiter.

So the WHOLE story of the Burning Legion, thus everything they did, was a manipulation to be used as pawns for Zovaal's plans.

Only stuff related to the old gods gets out of the "everything."

It isn't disingenuous, you just do not know the lore. So here. For your benefit I will carefully explain to you the general plot of Warcraft to which the Jailer is connected and what handful of things he actually is responsible for.

Sargeras corrupted himself. He saw what the Old Gods on an unnamed world were doing, interrogated the Dreadlords on the planet and learned about the Void Lords and decided that the best course of action was wiping out existence so the Void wouldn't have a foothold, so he took the Dreadlords and formed the burning legion and began his crusade to hunt down every last world soul and destroy everything besides the legion.

The Dreadlords went along with him, and helped him, but at the end of the day were loyal to Denathrius and through him Zovaal.

In space. Sargeras, not the Jailer. SARGERAS. found Argus, a world-soul planet, recruited the Eredar, and instructed that the planet be built to his specifications--turning it into an engine to power the Legion's immortality. The Dreadlords went along with SARGERAS' plan, but on the side, recognized that the world-soul was a good potential weapon to be used against the Arbiter, and along with the planned corruption of the world-soul, also began pulling it under Death's influence so that when the time was right or it was eventually destroyed, it would be sent to Oribos as a bomb to destroy the Arbiter.

The War of the Ancients, 1st and second war were 100%, entirely Sargeras attempting the crusade HE planned because HE was terrified of the VOID. None of them involve the Jailer. So already, of the several hundred thousand years of Warcraft events, All but ~50 are completely uninvolved with the Jailer beyond the fact that he is who the Dreadlords actually consider their ultimate master. He did not start the Legion. He did not control the Legion. He did not set the Legion's agenda. He watched through his spies as the Legion went around doing what Sargeras wanted.

THEN after the second war, the Jailer decided that he wanted to have more tangible influence on Azeroth, so he gave the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne to the Dreadlords, who told the Legion they had forged them and would use undead to weaken the planet so that their next invasion would work. The jailer's presence in the items made it so that Ner'zhul, an otherwise not especially terrible person, instead became fairly evil.


The Scourge followed the Legion's--NOT THE JAILER'S--instructions in Lordaeron. Destabilizing the region. And much like with the Dreadlords, the Jailer didn't actively manipulate anything, he just now had a way to keep eyes on the situation and have more and more forces aligned with Death. Lordaeron fell and Arthas became the weilder of Frostmourne, and invaded Quel'thalas.

Here, Sylvanas was turned. Not because the Jailer said so, or because he wanted her for some future scheme. Because she was arrogantly shittalking Arthas during the invasion and so he wanted her to suffer and brought her back aware instead of as a mindless undead.

The Legion became aware that they didn't have much control over the Lich King or undead anymore, and both they and Sylvanas and the Forsaken made attempts on Arthas, who retreated and then became the Lich King. The Legion was stopped.

Decades Later, the Alliance and Horde marched on Northrend and defeated Arthas, at which point Sylvanas, not because of any influence of the Jailer, killed herself. The Jailer, seeing a potential opportunity to get a new, more directly instructed pawn, had her snatched and brought to the Maw, where she made the deal, decided that the laws of Death and Life were unfair, and joined his side, being ressurected in exchange for one of the Val'kyr she was bound to.

She then in the background, was given the task of expanding Death's influence and sending more souls to the Maw to assist in the Jailer's actual fucking plan, which was not some billion IQ 6D chess match, but just "keep getting stronger and weakening the four covenants until I can strike directly, escape the maw, take the sigils and get to Zereth Mortis". Sylvanas kept this plan in the back of her mind while continuing to go about her regular Horde and leader duties for the next four expansions.

When Vol'jin died, arbitrarily to demons, not because of the Jailer. The Jailer via Mueh'zala saw an opportunity and slid Sylvanas into the role of Warchief, giving her significantly more power and freedom to act, and enabling her to finally actually do something of value for his cause.

When the Army of Light and Azerothian's moved on the Legion and killed Argus, finally activating the trap the Dreadlords had been waiting on, disabling the Arbiter and causing a sudden massive shift in the balance, with all the souls going straight into the Maw to empower the Jailer's forces, and the other four realms weakning because of the sudden lack of souls and anima.

With both the Shadowlands and Azeroth forces of the Jailer looking good, Syvlanas decided the time was right and intended to attack the Night Elves and cause a falling out in the Alliance, leaving Stormwind vulnerable so that she could march on it, kill everyone and have a massive undead army and basically become entirely unstoppable on the planet. The Alliance did not fracture, and instead she was forced into a drawn out war where she got backed into a corner, revealed that she wasn't really working for the Horde and fled.

Now a pariah on Azeroth, Sylvanas went and captured a bunch of the strongest people on Azeroth, because the Jailer needed souls that could potentially sneak into the other realms in order to get the sigils and actually get out of the Maw and do shit.

This is where Shadowlands begins.

Literally all Zovaal was actually responsible for, in the hundreds of thousands of years of history of the mortal plane, is
1) initially suggesting the Scourge idea through the Dreadlords, instead of the Dreadlords themselves doing it
2) bringing Sylvanas Windrunner back from the dead after she killed herself in icecrown and recruiting her
3) secretly having the Dreadlords build a weapon into Argus' world-soul (he is not responsible for Argus' death, we just activated the weapon he built before he could do so when he was ready)
4) making Sylvanas Windrunner warchief so she could cause more havoc and try to expand her conquest to a world-scale
5) having Sylvanas Windrunner kidnap faction leaders to use as puppets in his endgame

His "connection" is almost continuously used to just observe things, and then on the occasions where he does act, it isn't to change history, be responsible for large events, or manipulate the people shaping the universe, it's him noticing useful opportunities (The Legion needing a new strategy for invasion, Sylvanas' death, Argus' world-soul) and having the Dreadlords (or Val'kyr) slip some domination magic into those already existing, already on-going events so that down the line he can use them.

Shadowlands is literally telling us that Zovaal and Denathrius were working together all this time. It literally frames the whole Burning Legion as pawns used to fulfill Zovaal's plan of disabling the Arbiter.

That is not just "influence" it's purpose. Sargeras was totally on the blind, but Argus getting killed and destroying the Arbiter, THAT WAS THE PLAN.

It would be very different if Sargeras whole thing was just something influenced by Nathrezim. The problem lies with the fact that Sargeras manipulation by the Nathrezim WAS to create an entity like Argus and use them to disable the Arbiter and help free Zovaal.

And why does it suck's narratively? Because basically takes all the previous threats and makes them part of a previously at best obliquely alluded character, who never had ANY characterization until this very expansion.

No, Shadowlands is literally telling us that Zovaal and Denathrius were working together and piggy-backed off the Burning Legion to go ahead and plant spies across the universe, and give death a bit more influence in the mortal plane.

It is "influence" because as I just explained in thorough detail, Sargeras wasn't manipulated, he just wasn't aware that the Dreadlords had also booby-trapped Argus' world soul. The plan was for Argus' soul to be destroyed at some point. Yes. But that is not why Argus was used in the first place, that was just Sargeras pursuing his agenda. Do you think that the Legion is responsible for all of WoD because Gul'dan used the opportunity of a portal to a different timeline to slip into Azeroth and start an invasion? Of course not. Just like the Jailer isn't responsible for the Burning Legion or Argus, just using Argus as a timebomb to also get what he wants.

Sargeras' whole thing is being influenced by his own crazed fear of the Void Lords. Also, do you think that Sargeras created Argus? Hello? He found a world-soul and decided it could be used to make his armies turbo-immortal.

How it's hard to get that "character that appears 25 years later in a story and that was twist behind everything" is bad writing?

Do you mean the Old Gods?
Do you mean the Titans?
Do you mean the Void Lords?

That is why I pointed out your hypocrisy here. The Old Gods showed up out of nowhere in WoW, were just a thing that had bug armies, and then with a series of retcons starting in Wrath of the Lich King, were made infinitely more influential and involved than the Jailer is when they became the reason that Dwarves, Gnomes, Humans and troggs even exist as species, the reason for the Well of Eternity existing (and so the reason for the Night Elves learning magic and bringing the Legion down on Azeroth), the reason for the Elements hostility and subsequent creation of elemental planes, the corruption of the Emerald Dream, the source of Sargeras' turning on the other titans and starting to invade other worlds, and the servants of the ultimate evil force in the universe.

At least the Jailer was behind very little and was simply in the background ocassionally using events to his benefit.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Sargeras corrupted himself. He saw what the Old Gods on an unnamed world were doing, interrogated the Dreadlords on the planet and learned about the Void Lords and decided that the best course of action was wiping out existence so the Void wouldn't have a foothold, so he took the Dreadlords and formed the burning legion and began his crusade to hunt down every last world soul and destroy everything besides the legion.

The Dreadlords went along with him, and helped him, but at the end of the day were loyal to Denathrius and through him Zovaal.

That is the logical conclusion to come to, yes. Technically, this still gives him indirect culpability as the origin of the Nathrezim through Denathrius, but I figure that this is acceptable anyways—it was always evidently the case from Warcraft III that the Nathrezim had their own, ulterior motives separate from the Legion as a whole, and the idea of connecting them to an outside villain is sensible.

If it actually ended at Denathrius, I'd figure this was a very good idea that would help address the now-absent theme of necromancy in the Burning Legion whilst keeping the lore relatively stable. Every other connection is very reasonable—the Dreadlords used to be the agents of this one evil guy in the Shadowlands, got exiled, but they still have loyalty to Denny. This gives Denny culpability for the Scourge, which seems pretty acceptable given he's naturally a very interesting and likable villain—his involvement isn't that bad, doesn't derail the Scourge too much, and this doesn't reshape the storyline in his interests. However, there are two things that make this a problem

1. The fact that they felt the need to tie the Nathrezim into the higher-stakes Zovaal, which indicates to me that there's a certain degree of trying to hype him up simply by continuously connecting him to things which were previously unconnected to him (i.e. Sylvanas throwing a genocide-tantrum, the Lich King and Helm of Domination, the Nathrezim etc.)

2. The fact that we have this excerpt from "Enemy Infiltration"

In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see.

Show them a force that opposes their drive for Order, and they will be consumed by their urge to eradicate it.

Their pantheon, so seemingly united in purpose, is vulnerable to fracturing.

This makes for a very distinct alteration in the scenario. Obviously, one suggestion is that it is possible that it merely serves to foreshadow (from a chronological perspective) Sargeras' gradual fall to disorder and villainy. However—Occam's Razor, once applied, suggests this is not the case. It seems unnecessary and unwieldy to apply this specific context – that of a deliberate and organized scheme – to this scenario. If it was truly planned that Sargeras would simply be corrupted by happenstance and the Dreadlords were simply very prescient of this possibility – which, again, is not unreasonable – then it would likely expunge the second sentence, or perhaps even highlight the lack of need for activity. Again, the wording is not clear, but Occam's Razor dictates that I have to read this in the context in which it is presented, which simply suggests that this is meant to be read as a deliberate and calculated effort.

In space. Sargeras, not the Jailer. SARGERAS. found Argus, a world-soul planet, recruited the Eredar, and instructed that the planet be built to his specifications--turning it into an engine to power the Legion's immortality. The Dreadlords went along with SARGERAS' plan, but on the side, recognized that the world-soul was a good potential weapon to be used against the Arbiter, and along with the planned corruption of the world-soul, also began pulling it under Death's influence so that when the time was right or it was eventually destroyed, it would be sent to Oribos as a bomb to destroy the Arbiter.

This is not entirely unsuitable—this is fairly sensible, even if it does make Sargeras, previously a clever and calculated villain, look like a chump. Since the Jailer already looks like a chump and is a generally banal and uninteresting villain, it does little to build him up. Instead, it only diminishes the character of Sargeras. However, I will admit that the Dreadlords, once again, have always seemed to be pretty iffy in regards to their loyalties. This is not entirely nonsensical, but it simply is poor writing by virtue of how it diminishes a previously-established villain.

Functionally, this is sound from a Watsonian perspective, but is shaky and unwieldy from a Doylist perspective.

The War of the Ancients, 1st and second war were 100%, entirely Sargeras attempting the crusade HE planned because HE was terrified of the VOID. None of them involve the Jailer. So already, of the several hundred thousand years of Warcraft events, All but ~50 are completely uninvolved with the Jailer beyond the fact that he is who the Dreadlords actually consider their ultimate master. He did not start the Legion. He did not control the Legion. He did not set the Legion's agenda. He watched through his spies as the Legion went around doing what Sargeras wanted.

See Enemy Infiltration quote.

THEN after the second war, the Jailer decided that he wanted to have more tangible influence on Azeroth, so he gave the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne to the Dreadlords, who told the Legion they had forged them and would use undead to weaken the planet so that their next invasion would work. The jailer's presence in the items made it so that Ner'zhul, an otherwise not especially terrible person, instead became fairly evil.

You are missing the component that makes this more of an asspull than a reasonable quality that one could expect—the fact that the Helm is a corrupting influence is not inherently bad. This is permissible. Explaining a known and tangible quality of the Helm of Domination – that it is an item of evil magic – is not unnaceptable. It adds to the story, it doesn't change preexisting qualities. What is new and very awkward is that all of the sudden it's AKTHUALLY been a secret portal device ALL ALONGE, which when broken will cause the sky to burst open and the veil between life and death to be broken, as well. There are some Watsonian explanations, yes, such as that it may be the concentration of Death magic in the Helm that it, when brought to a place that is already on the border of life and death and then broken, would release such a shockwave of dark magic that it would tear the boundaries between the worlds.

From a Doylist perspective, however, this is an asspull. There was no suggestion at all prior the very moment it occurred that we would have any reason to expect that the Helm of Domination would tear the veil between life and death. That's a new thing that it never had any indication of being able to do—up until that very moment we learned about it, it was an Evil Psychic Hat that let you control undead. It was purely necromantic beforehand and hardly had anything to do with the afterlife other than sharing a "death" theme—the relationship with its death theme was wholly detached from the afterlife.

The Scourge followed the Legion's--NOT THE JAILER'S--instructions in Lordaeron. Destabilizing the region. And much like with the Dreadlords, the Jailer didn't actively manipulate anything, he just now had a way to keep eyes on the situation and have more and more forces aligned with Death. Lordaeron fell and Arthas became the weilder of Frostmourne, and invaded Quel'thalas.

Here, Sylvanas was turned. Not because the Jailer said so, or because he wanted her for some future scheme. Because she was arrogantly shittalking Arthas during the invasion and so he wanted her to suffer and brought her back aware instead of as a mindless undead.

The Legion became aware that they didn't have much control over the Lich King or undead anymore, and both they and Sylvanas and the Forsaken made attempts on Arthas, who retreated and then became the Lich King. The Legion was stopped.

These are all sensible.

Decades Later, the Alliance and Horde marched on Northrend and defeated Arthas, at which point Sylvanas, not because of any influence of the Jailer, killed herself. The Jailer, seeing a potential opportunity to get a new, more directly instructed pawn, had her snatched and brought to the Maw, where she made the deal, decided that the laws of Death and Life were unfair, and joined his side, being ressurected in exchange for one of the Val'kyr she was bound to.

Why Sylvanas? Of all of the people he chose, he chose her? And it's definitely a retcon from the original story—what we know happened, because this story was from her perspective, is she saw a dark place very distinct from the Maw in design and nature where she would float eternally in a state of torment. Knowing this was a terrible fate, she made a deal with the remaining Val'Kyr to save them from this fate by entering them into the service of the Horde. This is a very sensible development—it opens up interesting connections. There was no point in that story where she met Zovaal or was given reason to work for him.

For one, a far more interesting story could've been made using either Yogg-Saron or, potentially, Helya. Helya's introduction would be easier to swallow—aside from a "Titan++" level villain appearing out of nowhere and suddenly having been manipulating this irrelevant dead Elf for years simply being a very stupid development, Helya was a villain whose introduction to the story and connection to preexisting plot points did not seem as much a hollow attempt to build her up from a Doylist perspective. She was the retroactive creator of the Elemental Planes, but we never had explicit information stating in every way that someone else (specified, even) created the Elemental Planes. This is not an asspull, and the new introduction of the origin of the Val'Kyr is also a development that connects to this plot point and gives her a hook on Sylvanas. Her having potentially been the one who sent the Val'Kyr to resurrect her would be a very fun and interesting plot, especially since they actually have common ground in having been warped and twisted into undead monstrosities against their will—unlike Zovaal, who only shares "lol free will" with Sylvanas, this makes for a very strong connection and starting ground for these two to meet and become allies.

Similarly, she actively impaled herself on the blood of Yogg-Saron—up until then, Yogg-Saron was also suggested to be the source of the Scourge, having possibly been exploited by the Legion to create the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne. This is, admittedly, a little harder to swallow, but it also gave a plausible source for the Scourge with necromantic qualities distinct from the Burning Legion whilst also opening up new plot hooks that weren't entirely divorced from the story as a whole up until that moment. Yogg-Saron had been built up until TBC, the Old Gods since WC3, and the connection was there. Unlike Zovaal, Yogg-Saron's role in the plot seemed very natural as his involvement with the Curse of Flesh was not entirely hamfisted simply for the hype—we had a preexisting mystery. Here was the solution to that mystery. The Curse of Flesh seems to be something which could easily be connected to necromancy due to the shared qualities of its involvement with living things. Furthermore, the Dreadlords, although they forged the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne, surely could have done so with Saronite, or even used Saronite fumes for the Plague. This all would make sense and tie together existing themes in a satisfying way.

When Vol'jin died, arbitrarily to demons, not because of the Jailer. The Jailer via Mueh'zala saw an opportunity and slid Sylvanas into the role of Warchief, giving her significantly more power and freedom to act, and enabling her to finally actually do something of value for his cause.

This is reasonable. i will not argue with this, even if as aforementioned it still feels like an asspull to use a completely made-up villain who had no foreshadowing save for "maybe there's a death villain?" who could've easily been Yogg-Saron or Helya, both more interesting and established characters who would have a reason to be involved in the plot, as well as – THIS IS IMPORTANT – reasonable preexisting connections to other lore threads.

With both the Shadowlands and Azeroth forces of the Jailer looking good, Syvlanas decided the time was right and intended to attack the Night Elves and cause a falling out in the Alliance, leaving Stormwind vulnerable so that she could march on it, kill everyone and have a massive undead army and basically become entirely unstoppable on the planet. The Alliance did not fracture, and instead she was forced into a drawn out war where she got backed into a corner, revealed that she wasn't really working for the Horde and fled.

Why not just go straight for the Evil Hat if she was in kahoots with the Jailer all along? Why the unnecessary genocide to get an undead army when she'd already have the Mawsworn to rely on after Argus?

Literally all Zovaal was actually responsible for, in the hundreds of thousands of years of history of the mortal plane, is
1) initially suggesting the Scourge idea through the Dreadlords, instead of the Dreadlords themselves doing it
2) bringing Sylvanas Windrunner back from the dead after she killed herself in icecrown and recruiting her
3) secretly having the Dreadlords build a weapon into Argus' world-soul (he is not responsible for Argus' death, we just activated the weapon he built before he could do so when he was ready)
4) making Sylvanas Windrunner warchief so she could cause more havoc and try to expand her conquest to a world-scale
5) having Sylvanas Windrunner kidnap faction leaders to use as puppets in his endgame

The last three are pretty reasonable, even if the first of them very much undermines the drama of Legion, easily previously the most lore-relevant expansion thus far. It does seem cheap and further undermines the Legion as villains. It makes the triumph feel hollow for a very underwhelming villain to benefit. This is a Doylist problem, not a Watsonian problem.

The first two, as I said, don't work. Firstly, the Scourge are very relevant—we already had the reveal they may have come from Yogg-Saron, which could be an interesting idea to explore. The origins of Necromancy could be very interesting if we simply were given a reason to care about them before (i.e. picking back up on the generally well-received Ulduar). It also could have been a more sensible progression for the Dreadlords to have made the Scourge in their own interests, and then gone running to the Jailer after the Legion's defeat to give him their backup plan in the form of retaking control of the Scourge.

For resurrecting Sylvanas, we already know what happened there. She apparently just entered knowingly into the Jailer's service offscreen. This could've worked as a reveal if it turned out Helya was working for the Jailer (which it did), then strung Sylvanas along with her Val'Kyr until she told her that she had a buddy who could help them both. Since Sylvie and Helya have common ground, this could've led to a very solid and smooth introduction from Sylvie to the Jailer whilst giving her reason to trust him (i.e. someone she has reason to trust can testify to his character).

His "connection" is almost continuously used to just observe things, and then on the occasions where he does act, it isn't to change history, be responsible for large events, or manipulate the people shaping the universe, it's him noticing useful opportunities (The Legion needing a new strategy for invasion, Sylvanas' death, Argus' world-soul) and having the Dreadlords (or Val'kyr) slip some domination magic into those already existing, already on-going events so that down the line he can use them.

This still retroactively inserts him into several plotlines without foreshadowing or reason. This makes him invasive in a bad way.

Do you mean the Old Gods?
Do you mean the Titans?
Do you mean the Void Lords?

That is why I pointed out your hypocrisy here. The Old Gods showed up out of nowhere in WoW,

Wrong. They were foreshadowed long before, by name, in the Warcraft III manual. Then we got a very large amount of lore over the entire leveling experience and several zones suggesting their existence—and then we had a whole patch event dedicated to preparing for war against one near the very tail-end of Vanilla after seeing all of their minions and knowing from the get-go there was some involvement. We had threads that were actually open-ended, not cutting tied threads, or even tying threads to strings of different color (in a figurative way of putting it). Even assuming these weren't preplanned possibilities, which I'm sure some weren't, the role of the Old Gods as a preexisting and prominent threat made it very sensible to tie them into things and made it satisfying from a Doylist perspective to say that they did something evil.

a series of retcons starting in Wrath of the Lich King, were made infinitely more influential and involved than the Jailer is when they became the reason that Dwarves, Gnomes, Humans and troggs even exist as species,

Not true, it's not a retcon. It added information to what we already knew—these races used to be stone, as we learned in Uldaman, and then we went to another Titan facility where it would make sense to learn about these things and found out that the reason why they became flesh was the Old Gods. This is a reasonable progression of the story and what we know.

the reason for the Well of Eternity existing (and so the reason for the Night Elves learning magic and bringing the Legion down on Azeroth),

This is not sensible. It ties into preexisting concepts about the Old Gods, as well as their implicit connection to the Maelstrom. And, again, it is not unfeasible after
the Old Gods are well-understood and established to connect them to things. This also doesn't give them direct or indirect culpability for the Night Elves. This simply presents an origin. It doesn't give them the meddlesome influence the Jailer is given by virtue of the Helm of Domination secretly being the key to the Shadowlands this whole time.

the reason for the Elements hostility and subsequent creation of elemental planes,

Lore since WC3.

the corruption of the Emerald Dream,

Suggested since the Emerald Nightmare was a thing.

the source of Sargeras' turning on the other titans and starting to invade other worlds,

This was long-speculated and, again, they were a well-liked and well-established thread that had time to grow and be hyped up. Zovaal is a single guy who had no time to be hyped-up, was not already well-liked and established as a villain, and simply emerged from nowhere with no previous reason to believe he was there, and suddenly was culpable for several important things.

and the servants of the ultimate evil force in the universe.

That's a downgrade, actually. They were suggested originally to be more powerful than Sargeras alone back when the Titans weren't explicitly planet-sized deities, but just the mysterious precursor maybe-deities who colonized Azeroth and defeated them with the full strength of their armies.

At least the Jailer was behind very little and was simply in the background ocassionally using events to his benefit.

It's simply not a matter of what makes sense from a Watsonian perspective. It's about making a satisfying story. WoW is more fleshed-out now than it was when Yogg-Saron or C'Thun was introduced. Back then, the universe was more mysterious and unexplored. Ever since Chronicles, we supposedly knew everything—this lore was originally presented as concrete. Then it became fluid for no reason other than to justify new additions. There are gaps to fill in. Unforeseen qualities that could be used to the advantage of the storyline. You don't have to retroactively put a villain in something to make them interesting—if there is a loose thread, you can tie it. We knew that there were loose threads about the Curse of Flesh, about where the Well of Eternity came from, etc.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

never was a 4d chess scheming, in thousands of years he tried many ways to reach his goal until he was lucky

You know that could have been an interesting angle. Like everyone knows that the Jailer is up to shit, but he's failed at it so many times they just assume he'll always fail.

Then we show up and break things in such a precise way he wins for once.

But of course that idea was probably thought of just last week knowing Blizz's writing.

[Luck4]

In regards to the coming weeks
With blizzard it normally means months lol

As far as the next expansion I’m certain they have at least a trailer but putting together a presentation currently is likely rough

They had the blizzconline stuff canceled and are likely holding it for the replacement which will likely be a livestream of premade videos

Yeah, I think the trailer is probably ready rn, but I think the overall design, and zones, are probably lacking a lot of polishing to be shown. There's also the possibility that the 10.0 announcement will be held to be shown as a World Premiere in an Xbox event, where all the backlash about the lawsuit will be mostly ignored at the same time that Xbox makes a huge marketing move for its brand.

I mean, announcing WoW 10.0 on an Xbox stage will benefit Microsoft more than anything else, if WoW joins the Xbox Pass I could see a surge in popularity, however, if that happens, I fear more microtransactions will take hold.

The fact that Blizzard events were canceled left us in the dark, there's no deadline, the announcement could happen next week or five months from now.

[huth]

found this on the dark 4 webcha link to imgur

Ah, yes. WoW: Exile's Path

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Ah, yes. WoW: Exile's Path

GG you managed to preserve it before they deleted it.

Honestly that map makes me realize Blizz would never do something that detailed. Look at those jagged zone edges and inlets and lakes, it's not blobby enough to be a WoW continent.

[Hitei]

-snip-

I don't particularly disagree with your take. My point was not to suggest Zovaal is a great character or that his setup is particularly satisfying, it was to point out that the often quoted "they retconned him into being the cause of everything in the game/WC3" is just silly.

It's simply not a matter of what makes sense from a Watsonian perspective. It's about making a satisfying story. WoW is more fleshed-out now than it was when Yogg-Saron or C'Thun was introduced. Back then, the universe was more mysterious and unexplored. Ever since Chronicle, we supposedly knew everything—this lore was originally presented as concrete. Then it became fluid for no reason other than to justify new additions. There are gaps to fill in. Unforeseen qualities that could be used to the advantage of the storyline. You don't have to retroactively put a villain in something to make them interesting—if there is a loose thread, you can tie it. We knew that there were loose threads about the Curse of Flesh, about where the Well of Eternity came from, etc.

Wow is fleshed out precisely because it does things like this though. Chronicle was intended to be a comprehensive lurch forward in filling in the gaps, resolving shaky points, and expanding the universe... but inevitably you're going to come up against those fillings as walls blocking potentially interesting storylines and additions. The fluidity is necessary because otherwise you're forced into such vagueness that describing the state of affairs becomes pointless, you have to dance around the details of every last little thing or chance locking that item out of potential later on.

You don't have to retroactively put a villain in something to make them interesting, but if you're adding a villain (or an entire group of characters who have existed for a very long time), you do need to retroactively explain some of what they have been doing during the existing events they would have been around for.