Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Varx]

Have we discussed what was mentioned in an interview a while back. If i remember someone let it slip by accident something called "The Clockmaker" which I guess the one True God being in the warcraft universe that is even responsible for the first ones.

[Kiivar86]

Have we discussed what was mentioned in an interview a while back. If i remember someone let it slip by accident something called "The Clockmaker" which I guess the one True God being in the warcraft universe that is even responsible for the first ones.

First I'm hearing of this.

[username993720]

Why would Titan tech be for Tinkers when Tinkers have nothing to do with Titan tech? Is that what you've been thinking this entire time? The only reason I brought up Titan tech is because it relates to Old Gods and Dragons on multiple levels. In fact, their lores are intertwined.

Yeah... i'm not buying it. There's always a motive with you.

Full of Titan tech, and it's the tech that is imprisoning the Old Gods.

Actually, the magical chains are.

He was enough of an Old God to be a significant threat and be imprisoned by the Titans. The point is that Blizzard can completely make up and bring a new Old God into the storyline if they need to.

They made him in the first place, by experimenting on living creatures.
And i agree. Xal'atath could be a 5th (or 6th) Old God.

Just because I view EoD as the strongest leak, doesn't mean that I wouldn't prefer a MoP-style expansion.

If MoP styled expansion happens and introduces the Blademaster, you gonna rage or what?

No, why would I? I'm talking about a different subject in mind, papi.

Papi? Papi chulo?

The fact that Tinkers will be 10.0's new class is irrelevant to my topic at hand.

Of course... should have expected that.

Have we discussed what was mentioned in an interview a while back. If i remember someone let it slip by accident something called "The Clockmaker" which I guess the one True God being in the warcraft universe that is even responsible for the first ones.

And then the clockmaker maker. And then, the maker of all makers. And then the creator that created the maker of all makers. And then... pfff, i got tired.

[Varx]

First I'm hearing of this.

I'll see if i can find the link.

[Soulwind]

They are still suffering the consequences of explaining and trivializing the Titans with Chronicle and Legion which is why they've now made the First Ones as what are basically pre-Chronicle Titans, complete with using machine like forges to fuck around with reality and create sentient beings out of templates.

While there could be some depth to a cyclical or recursive story, in which the main characters keep discovering that their creators were also creations, in this case it seems like they wanted to make a big reveal, couldn't come up with anything clever, and chose to repeat the same reveal that they made in WotLK, just an order of magnitude higher.

"Turns out, not only are we sentient machines that defied our makers, but our makers are sentient machines that defied theirs!"

Maybe they're just trying to kickstart the AIs of their NPCs, Westworld style. Imagine Skynet happening because of some poorly written game lore.

[Sondrelk]

They are still suffering the consequences of explaining and trivializing the Titans with Chronicle and Legion which is why they've now made the First Ones as what are basically pre-Chronicle Titans, complete with using machine like forges to fuck around with reality and create sentient beings out of templates.

I have been wondering whether they are going to re-retcon the titans into being more than just the pantheon of order like Chronicles said they were.
They are afterall clearly in the living world, and not the realm of order which has to exist somewhere, so I wouldn't think it impossible if they got a new twist as second generation first ones (second ones?) To exist specifically as the pantheon of the 7th cosmic force in opposition to the 6 we know.

- - - Updated - - -

While there could be some depth to a cyclical or recursive story, in which the main characters keep discovering that their creators were also creations, in this case it seems like they wanted to make a big reveal, couldn't come up with anything clever, and chose to repeat the same reveal that they made in WotLK, just an order of magnitude higher.

"Turns out, not only are we sentient machines that defied our makers, but our makers are sentient machines that defied theirs!"

Maybe they're just trying to kickstart the AIs of their NPCs, Westworld style. Imagine Skynet happening because of some terribly written game lore.

It definitely seems to me like the writers are suffering from a classic case of valuing the big shocking reveal higher than the actual process leading up to it.

[Khaza-R]

cross faction is in. group through group finder only. could talk in party/raid chat but not in open world or public channels. no xfaction guilds.

Odd indeed. Considering it wouldn't even address the one problem its supposed to fix.

Going to have to /doubt this one.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

From the new document the seventh is the totality of the other six. The six we know are one side of the coin, reality in total is the other, which is why when one is knocked off it screws everything. Which I suppose is an extremely sequitous way to explaining why the division is barely adhered to and every source can do pretty much whatever. They overlap because they are part of the same thing. WC3 did it without having to jump through a million hoops by simply not explaining it, but hey, as far as explanations go it's fine.

It also goes on about how the powers are incomplete and complement one another, like how the Light sees only in one direction and the Void sees all opportunities and neither is self-sustaining. Ergo when the Bald Man goes on about the flawed design he's not just dispensing bland villain diatribes but is right in so far as he's bitching about how he's part of an incomplete buggy program that was never meant to work together and it's why his ultimate goal is to bring everything into an orderly, complete alignment and his entire plan hinges on abusing various loopholes in the system to see it through. So what he means by remaking reality is actually something very specific which is the total alignment of the powers into a singular whole instead of incomplete and self-contradicting portions that fight against each other.

It sure would be nice if this was present in something other than a word document from some jackass (who previously also existed only in a word document from Tazavesh) since it's the kind of trippy worldbuilding that this kind of setting really should commit to. Or if the Bald Man brought it up explicitly instead of speaking chiefly in cliches. Souls-like storytelling only works because Souls games are arch and lack dialogue and also drip with style, whereas WoW has neither atmosphere and style and is the opposite of arch, being full of frivolous dialogue which could easily be replaced by bits pertinent to the plot.

Very excellent observation, though if I may add, I maintain that the best way to adequately represent the seventh force isn't the summation of all of the forces (i.e. reality), but rather the underlying Hegelian sublation between all of them which permits reality to function. Perhaps it would be sensible, and it could arguably demonstrate more of the overlap between different forces—this would explain, for instance, how delving too deep into Arcane magic invariably leads to the Fel. It would be a very interesting way of bringing in the kind of philosophy they're trying to otherwise portray—they're actually making an interesting attempt at what would be otherwise an unconventional quality of profundity for such an otherwise traditional fantasy setting with few truly unique or surreal elements (i.e. Curse of Flesh).

I'd love to see the whole geometry plot hook explored if they simply made more of an effort to integrate the philosophy into the story and made absolutely, positively certain to do as much research as possible into the theory. It would be very fascinating to see a story like that, and it would fit with some of the more out-there elements in WoW's lore (again, Curse of Flesh).

[Soulwind]

Odd indeed. Considering it wouldn't even address the one problem its supposed to fix.

To be fair, that'd be par for the course...

[Super Dickmann]

While there could be some depth to a cyclical or recursive story, in which the main characters keep discovering that their creators were also creations, in this case it seems like they wanted to make a big reveal, couldn't come up with anything clever, and chose to repeat the same reveal that they made in WotLK, just an order of magnitude higher.

"Turns out, not only are we sentient machines that defied our makers, but our makers are sentient machines that defied theirs!"

You hit spectacle creep and at this point there's nothing to explain because with Chronicle you've already explained the setting. The Titans are very big dudes who made lots of small dudes out of factories to fight the Old Gods because they were too big or else they'd break the planet. Then they died, except not really, and then we met them and they were a bunch of big dudes speaking archly and having zero issue talking with random mortals as peers, which doesn't quite gel with the gods so far above life that not only did they automate its creation but they were perfectly fine with wiping out at a whim on the order of their local patrolman with Algalon. The reveal is the same because by explaining the Titans and especially featuring them on-screen we both solved the universe background wise and essentially switched the Titans in terms of narrative role from absentee aloof progenitors into basically benevolent and personally invested figures.

@Sondrelk

Given how among the problems in the new cosmology is the absurd power level and relevance of both Azeroth and Sargeras in terms of upending all other forces, if they're going to retcon the First Ones having them be Titans unrelated to the Pantheon would be servicable. It'd also square the 7th Cosmic Power thing, which is explained in the article linked above as being the totality of all six with how the Titans work which seem to have skillsets outside of just Arcane, Eonar with Life or Argus with Death etc.

[Ersula]

Very excellent observation, though if I may add, I maintain that the best way to adequately represent the seventh force isn't the summation of all of the forces (i.e. reality), but rather the underlying Hegelian sublation between all of them which permits reality to function.

Then why does the text reference some sort of antagonism between the seventh & the other six?

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Then why does the text reference some sort of antagonism between the seventh & the other six?

I'm suggesting more that as what I think would be more interesting as opposed to what is strictly the case. Nevertheless, one could further interpret the supposed antagonism as the Cosmic Forces' opposition to achieving Aufhaben with their counterparts, as they presently feel it would diminish them to do so.

[bruxx]

Have we discussed what was mentioned in an interview a while back. If i remember someone let it slip by accident something called "The Clockmaker" which I guess the one True God being in the warcraft universe that is even responsible for the first ones.

It was Ion himself that talked about it in some interview, it wasn't an accidental slip up either. Sadly, I don't remember the exact source, my brain wants to say it was with Bellular but I could be way off.

[Soulwind]

I'm suggesting more that as what I think would be more interesting as opposed to what is strictly the case. Nevertheless, one could further interpret the supposed antagonism as the Cosmic Forces' opposition to achieving Aufhaben with their counterparts, as they presently feel it would diminish them to do so.

Look, man, I think you know way more about this kind of stuff than anyone remotely related to anyone writing the story. I'm sure it's a fun exercise, but don't expect them to put that much thought into what they produce.

Like, you're talking about philosophical principles here. They're just wondering how much can they copy from the latest Marvel movie without being sued.

[Varx]

It was Ion himself that talked about it in some interview, it wasn't an accidental slip up either. Sadly, I don't remember the exact source, my brain wants to say it was with Bellular but I could be way off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boMCwA_FCxQ

This guy

[Sondrelk]

@Super Dickmann
I had a pet theory a while back that the First Ones got reincarnated into the titans, which u think would be a serviceable way to make the Titans slightly higher on the totem pole again.
It would however come at the expense of narrative cohesion, but at this point I think salvaging everything is a lost cause. Better to take the parts that still look fine and put them into a new context.

And yes, the tita s definitely have powers outside the realm of order, which I originally figured to be an inherent property of Order wanting to control everything, but which I think now would work better in the context of the First Ones ordering everything.

And now that I have written it out it does hit me how much the first ones struggle to fit a distinct niche when Order was already a clearly defined cosmic power on the same level as the others.
Had Order not been a cosmic power I think making that the domain of the first ones would have actually been somewhat clever.

[Kiivar86]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boMCwA_FCxQ

This guy

Interesting, thanks!

I like clock and clock symbology so the idea is interesting but it is getting a bit much to have a man behind the man behind the man that's behind the man.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It was Ion himself that talked about it in some interview, it wasn't an accidental slip up either. Sadly, I don't remember the exact source, my brain wants to say it was with Bellular but I could be way off.

Admittedly, it could be referring to the First Ones—all it really means is a reference to the "Watch and the Watchmaker" theological argument, which proves the existence of God via complexity.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'm suggesting more that as what I think would be more interesting as opposed to what is strictly the case. Nevertheless, one could further interpret the supposed antagonism as the Cosmic Forces' opposition to achieving Aufhaben with their counterparts, as they presently feel it would diminish them to do so.

I'm more curious as to why those broker books imply theres more then 6 forces(Implying more then 6 or even 7). Its confusing.

Look, man, I think you know way more about this kind of stuff than anyone remotely related to anyone writing the story. I'm sure it's a fun exercise, but don't expect them to put that much thought into what they produce.

I'm sure theres more thought to it then people cynically think.

Admittedly, it could be referring to the First Ones—all it really means is a reference to the "Watch and the Watchmaker" theological argument, which proves the existence of God via complexity.

Inb4 One above all.

[Sondrelk]

Then why does the text reference some sort of antagonism between the seventh & the other six?

It doesn't mention antagonism so much as it being an "other" to the established 6 forces.
You have the 6 forces who are in conflict amongst themselves, and then also a 7th force that exists outside this established 6 force framework.