Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[bruxx]

Ah, found the interview I was thinking of

https://www.wowhead.com/news/bellula...wapping-316889

[Super Dickmann]

Very excellent observation, though if I may add, I maintain that the best way to adequately represent the seventh force isn't the summation of all of the forces (i.e. reality), but rather the underlying Hegelian sublation between all of them which permits reality to function. Perhaps it would be sensible, and it could arguably demonstrate more of the overlap between different forces—this would explain, for instance, how delving too deep into Arcane magic invariably leads to the Fel. It would be a very interesting way of bringing in the kind of philosophy they're trying to otherwise portray—they're actually making an interesting attempt at what would be otherwise an unconventional quality of profundity for such an otherwise traditional fantasy setting with few truly unique or surreal elements (i.e. Curse of Flesh).

I'd love to see the whole geometry plot hook explored if they simply made more of an effort to integrate the philosophy into the story and made absolutely, positively certain to do as much research as possible into the theory. It would be very fascinating to see a story like that, and it would fit with some of the more out-there elements in WoW's lore (again, Curse of Flesh).

You're right and describe what I (and I figure the writers) are getting it more accurately without losing conciseness. I do think that's what they're getting at and also what they've shown within the span of the expansion. The mention of the Curse of Flesh and in general the Titan installations on Azeroth and the focus on artificiality and intelligent design in creation of the races are the reason why I don't chafe at these elements as much as a lot of people do, since they're essentially expanded versions of playing with the same concepts. It's why I bring it back to the change in the portrayal of the Titans. I can't see the Titans as we meet them in Legion purposefully empowering the Dragon Aspects as part of a self-fulfilling prophecy that hinges on them being empowered in the first place and then being sterilized after they'd run their course. I can believe it from the Titans before it then, even if the writers likely couldn't which is why that plot point is such an asspulled carfire and I can believe it when Shadowlands pulls what's essentially the same plot with the Eternal Ones who're all iterations on concepts discouraged from learning their own artificiality, hence the Primus mentioning they're banned from entering Zereth Mortis.

I think a lot of people are dismissing the mention of patterns and geometry and the like as being extraneous fluff when for a change the story does seem aware of the implications of what it's getting and is even major plot points on it. As someone who's tended to be bored to tears of the world antagonist expansions I've been surprised in how much I've bothered to look into the Shadowlands details, which either means my taste buds have atrophied or that it's very niche. More likely though, they're right however in so far as beyond how much such a story can even be told in an MMO, it's told in an obtuse way that runs counter to the extremely basic approach taken to character dynamics. Shadowlands doesn't go through with frontloading its ideas in favor of explaining them in side elements and environmental storytelling. In addition, while I think thematically it touches upon things the game has done before and explores it further in terms of the actual names and faces used and because it contradicts Chronicle which essentially solved the setting you have no buy-in into this material which further complicates the telling of the plot.

@Sondrelk

It's a consequence of the problems of the Chronicle trying to make a soft magic system into a hard magic system and half-assing it in a way that leaves what these powers actually envision extremely unclear. Just for one example, before Chronicle the Legion and necromancy gelled perfectly as abusing the same kind of vague dark magic. However, after Chronicle and up to Shadowlands you had this weird juxtaposition where Death was meant to be a cosmic force all its own yet it had zero representatives of its own since virtually undead we've seen was created through fel magic by demons either directly or not, so what the fuck is Death in that case? How is Life separate from Order in as much as both act upon reality and the Titans have created conservatories that dealt with the creation of vegetation and animals? Etc. etc. It's only with the Shadowlands' retcons as to what the Helm of Domination is that they've retroactively turned the undead into actual representatives of Death. Shadowlands' cosmology dips further into trying to make it fit into a slightly harder and reasoned setup, but it fails chiefly because this is an issue few people care about and because people've gotten used to the present setup and have been told this is it only for the writers to pivot away from it.

[Soulwind]

I'm sure theres more thought to it then people cynically think.

Okay, I'll reword it in a fairer way.

I'm sure there are people in the writing team who actually care and spend hundreds of hours thinking of ways to move the story forward, leaving hints while keeping things vague, and setting up twists and turns. People who then read these forums and are probably hurt to see players react so negatively to their work.

But I'm also certain that some suit will look at a couple of charts, and demand that the next expansion has to be about flying monkeys, and that the current most popular character in the game has to die in the intro, throwing half of what was planned into the bin immediately, and leaving the other half not making any sense.

[Kiivar86]

Ah, found the interview I was thinking of

https://www.wowhead.com/news/bellula...wapping-316889

Excellent too, thanks!

Ah, that date, 7/13/20, no wonder I missed it, I was just starting recovery from a stroke, so I was a little preoccupied, to say the least.

[Nyel]

I think it was obvious that's where this cosmic story line was going as soon as they announced it.

Like guaranteed you will have to unite all the cosmic forces and defeat the "true enemy" by game's finale. Probably also why this story already so boring and its barely even been told.

I mean how do you top cosmic? So what’s bigger than that? Because that’s obviously what the 7th force is, lol.

I like Sondrelks theory, but that sounds a bit too cliche.

So we have the Uber-Titans in the First Ones, we have the Uber-Force in the form of Azeroth, what’s next? This infinite adding of new and even more Uber entities is getting annoying.

[Sondrelk]

I mean how do you top cosmic? So what’s bigger than that? Because that’s obviously what the 7th force is, lol.

I like Sondrelks theory, but that sounds a bit too cliche.

Which theory? The reincarnated Titan theory?
I admit it's not the best theory in the world, but I made it more as a way to make the Titans actually relevant, and additionally explain why they are in our universe and not in the realm of Order.

[Super Dickmann]

But I'm also certain that some suit will look at a couple of charts, and demand that the next expansion has to be about flying monkeys, and that the current most popular character in the game has to die in the intro, throwing half of what was planned into the bin immediately, and leaving the other half not making any sense.

Ordinarily I'd agree with you but the corporate suits both don't care about the story so long as it ships copies and also they agreed to give Alex millions upon millions of dollars for execrable Sadfang cinematics at the expense of 8.2.5 having zero content, so I'm fairly sure that the story team is kept on a loose leash. Too loose a leash sometimes.

I subscribe to the theory that the writers care but are massive hacks.

[Sondrelk]

Okay, I'll reword it in a fairer way.

I'm sure there are people in the writing team who actually care and spend hundreds of hours thinking of ways to move the story forward, leaving hints while keeping things vague, and setting up twists and turns. People who then read these forums and are probably hurt to see players react so negatively to their work.

But I'm also certain that some suit will look at a couple of charts, and demand that the next expansion has to be about flying monkeys, and that the current most popular character in the game has to die in the intro, throwing half of what was planned into the bin immediately, and leaving the other half not making any sense.

If we are expecting corporate interference i would have expected a complete 180 on the cosmic direction of the game, which could lead into a smaller stakes expansion that the story desperately needs to find its footing.

[Nyel]

You know what I would like? Azeroth saying I‘m out, I don’t want you and I don’t need you anymore. And waging war on us after she’s woken up prematurely.

[Sondrelk]

Ordinarily I'd agree with you but the corporate suits both don't care about the story so long as it ships copies and also they agreed to give Alex millions upon millions of dollars for execrable Sadfang cinematics at the expense of 8.2.5 having zero content, so I'm fairly sure that the story team is kept on a loose leash. Too loose a leash sometimes.

I subscribe to the theory that the writers care but are massive hacks.

I am still a firm believe that the writers are not incompetent, but are rather struggling to build a metaphorical Jenga tower even as the foundation crumbles underneath them.

The game desperately needs to let everything settle. Not just in terms of the stakes, but also the breakneck speed the story needs to go at considering how little time there is for actual in-game story.
Let everything settle, then start carefully constructing the plot going forwards.

[NikolaiShade]

You know what I would like? Azeroth saying I‘m out, I don’t want you and I don’t need you anymore. And waging war on us after she’s woken up prematurely.

No idea if you are joking, but it would honestly be one of the coolest twist in videogame history

[Sondrelk]

No idea if you are joking, but it would honestly be one of the coolest twist in videogame history

Wasn't that almost exactly the plot of the latest FFXIV expansion?

[NikolaiShade]

Wasn't that almost exactly the plot of the latest FFXIV expansion?

Never (seriously) played FFXIV so I don't know, cool idea anyway

[Soulwind]

You know what I would like? Azeroth saying I‘m out, I don’t want you and I don’t need you anymore. And waging war on us after she’s woken up prematurely.

Wouldn't be the first baby world soul that we kill...

I did speculate about an "exodus" (set of) expansion(s) a while back. Having to settle in a new world, with parallels to the draenei or the orcs, and creating a new canvas for them to work with. New ancient civilizations, buried threats and all that. Not to mention, brand new faction conflicts as the different races establish outposts and cities right next to each other, and frontiers could move every expansion.

[Super Dickmann]

I am still a firm believe that the writers are not incompetent, but are rather struggling to build a metaphorical Jenga tower even as the foundation crumbles underneath them.

The game desperately needs to let everything settle. Not just in terms of the stakes, but also the breakneck speed the story needs to go at considering how little time there is for actual in-game story.
Let everything settle, then start carefully constructing the plot going forwards.

They've said the next story will be more grounded on Azeroth. That's something I want to see how they handle because Shadowlands is part arch and part damage control, both very tall orders and both not important to the long-term health of the game. Can you competently tell a story about a green man with an axe and what kind of violence he can do? That's the question and we'll see the answer soon.

[draugril]

Wasn't that almost exactly the plot of the latest FFXIV expansion?

Not really. FFXIV had a creature essentially made out of empathy get nihilistic because of the prevalence of suffering in the universe. So your once and future friend turns herself into a World Soul to prevent a full on extinction.

[Sondrelk]

They've said the next story will be more grounded on Azeroth. That's something I want to see how they handle because Shadowlands is part arch and part damage control, both very tall orders and both not important to the long-term health of the game. Can you competently tell a story about a green man with an axe and what kind of violence he can do? That's the question and we'll see the answer soon.

The ideal next expansion for me would probably be something more akin to Vanilla.
Each patch deals with a one-off villain/problem, we defeat them in a raid, and then we move on to something else.
It would be less pressure on the writers to make each piece interconnected, and it could let us get closure on storylines that are probably not important enough to warrant a full expansion, nor so irrelevant to bake into something else.

The Dark Iron Dwarf insurrection plotline where they attempt to ressurect Ragnaros springs to mind.
Definitely not enough to carry a full expansion unless you make it a smaller part of a greater Twilight's Hammer themed expansion, nor so insignificant that it can be knocked off in a single zone, but instead just right for a single major patch.

Let the writers make something that can go mostly on autopilot, and then hope that this gives them enough breatinh room to start considering future plotlines and give them more thought.

- - - Updated - - -

Not really. FFXIV had a creature essentially made out of empathy get nihilistic because of the prevalence of suffering in the universe. So your once and future friend turns herself into a World Soul to prevent a full on extinction.

Ahh yes. I should have realized it was a standard anime plot...


Probably shouldn't be so mean to it. I love Final Fantasy as much as the next week. Maybe if I played it I would get it.

[bruxx]

Ahh yes. I should have realized it was a standard anime plot...


Probably shouldn't be so mean to it. I love Final Fantasy as much as the next week. Maybe if I played it I would get it.

It really does sound completely insane and bad when summarized in 2 lines like that, but it was actually a pretty decent plot lol

[draugril]

Ahh yes. I should have realized it was a standard anime plot...

Probably shouldn't be so mean to it. I love Final Fantasy as much as the next week. Maybe if I played it I would get it.

I wouldn't say a "standard anime plot." A standard Final Fantasy plot? Absolutely. If you beat a Final Fantasy game and didn't kill God at the end, did you really play a Final Fantasy game?

That being said, it took me three or four tries to really get into it. The beginning experience is a complete and utter slog, while simultaneously being a master-class in worldbuilding that sets up everything that they've only now paid off. Thus, you cannot skip the beginning and "get" why people are enjoying the current content to the scale that they are. It shows what the genre is capable of when you actually plot out a longform narrative and follow through. Absolutely astounding. But again... big ask at the beginning that I don't blame anyone for not being able to accommodate.

I truly do wonder how "planned" WoW is, outside of the barest generalities. My faith was really shaken when they said that WoD and Legion were interchangeable. You can't really swap two chapters in a typically structured novel and have it make any sense. It speaks to how transient, improvised and incidental any lasting storylines are.

[Varodoc]

Ahh yes. I should have realized it was a standard anime plot...


Probably shouldn't be so mean to it. I love Final Fantasy as much as the next week. Maybe if I played it I would get it.

Lol, like that wasn't your average plot back in MoP, with all the Sha shenanigans...