Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[bruxx]

Have we discussed what was mentioned in an interview a while back. If i remember someone let it slip by accident something called "The Clockmaker" which I guess the one True God being in the warcraft universe that is even responsible for the first ones.

It was Ion himself that talked about it in some interview, it wasn't an accidental slip up either. Sadly, I don't remember the exact source, my brain wants to say it was with Bellular but I could be way off.

[Soulwind]

I'm suggesting more that as what I think would be more interesting as opposed to what is strictly the case. Nevertheless, one could further interpret the supposed antagonism as the Cosmic Forces' opposition to achieving Aufhaben with their counterparts, as they presently feel it would diminish them to do so.

Look, man, I think you know way more about this kind of stuff than anyone remotely related to anyone writing the story. I'm sure it's a fun exercise, but don't expect them to put that much thought into what they produce.

Like, you're talking about philosophical principles here. They're just wondering how much can they copy from the latest Marvel movie without being sued.

[Varx]

It was Ion himself that talked about it in some interview, it wasn't an accidental slip up either. Sadly, I don't remember the exact source, my brain wants to say it was with Bellular but I could be way off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boMCwA_FCxQ

This guy

[Sondrelk]

@Super Dickmann
I had a pet theory a while back that the First Ones got reincarnated into the titans, which u think would be a serviceable way to make the Titans slightly higher on the totem pole again.
It would however come at the expense of narrative cohesion, but at this point I think salvaging everything is a lost cause. Better to take the parts that still look fine and put them into a new context.

And yes, the tita s definitely have powers outside the realm of order, which I originally figured to be an inherent property of Order wanting to control everything, but which I think now would work better in the context of the First Ones ordering everything.

And now that I have written it out it does hit me how much the first ones struggle to fit a distinct niche when Order was already a clearly defined cosmic power on the same level as the others.
Had Order not been a cosmic power I think making that the domain of the first ones would have actually been somewhat clever.

[Kiivar86]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boMCwA_FCxQ

This guy

Interesting, thanks!

I like clock and clock symbology so the idea is interesting but it is getting a bit much to have a man behind the man behind the man that's behind the man.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It was Ion himself that talked about it in some interview, it wasn't an accidental slip up either. Sadly, I don't remember the exact source, my brain wants to say it was with Bellular but I could be way off.

Admittedly, it could be referring to the First Ones—all it really means is a reference to the "Watch and the Watchmaker" theological argument, which proves the existence of God via complexity.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'm suggesting more that as what I think would be more interesting as opposed to what is strictly the case. Nevertheless, one could further interpret the supposed antagonism as the Cosmic Forces' opposition to achieving Aufhaben with their counterparts, as they presently feel it would diminish them to do so.

I'm more curious as to why those broker books imply theres more then 6 forces(Implying more then 6 or even 7). Its confusing.

Look, man, I think you know way more about this kind of stuff than anyone remotely related to anyone writing the story. I'm sure it's a fun exercise, but don't expect them to put that much thought into what they produce.

I'm sure theres more thought to it then people cynically think.

Admittedly, it could be referring to the First Ones—all it really means is a reference to the "Watch and the Watchmaker" theological argument, which proves the existence of God via complexity.

Inb4 One above all.

[Sondrelk]

Then why does the text reference some sort of antagonism between the seventh & the other six?

It doesn't mention antagonism so much as it being an "other" to the established 6 forces.
You have the 6 forces who are in conflict amongst themselves, and then also a 7th force that exists outside this established 6 force framework.

[bruxx]

Ah, found the interview I was thinking of

https://www.wowhead.com/news/bellula...wapping-316889

[Super Dickmann]

Very excellent observation, though if I may add, I maintain that the best way to adequately represent the seventh force isn't the summation of all of the forces (i.e. reality), but rather the underlying Hegelian sublation between all of them which permits reality to function. Perhaps it would be sensible, and it could arguably demonstrate more of the overlap between different forces—this would explain, for instance, how delving too deep into Arcane magic invariably leads to the Fel. It would be a very interesting way of bringing in the kind of philosophy they're trying to otherwise portray—they're actually making an interesting attempt at what would be otherwise an unconventional quality of profundity for such an otherwise traditional fantasy setting with few truly unique or surreal elements (i.e. Curse of Flesh).

I'd love to see the whole geometry plot hook explored if they simply made more of an effort to integrate the philosophy into the story and made absolutely, positively certain to do as much research as possible into the theory. It would be very fascinating to see a story like that, and it would fit with some of the more out-there elements in WoW's lore (again, Curse of Flesh).

You're right and describe what I (and I figure the writers) are getting it more accurately without losing conciseness. I do think that's what they're getting at and also what they've shown within the span of the expansion. The mention of the Curse of Flesh and in general the Titan installations on Azeroth and the focus on artificiality and intelligent design in creation of the races are the reason why I don't chafe at these elements as much as a lot of people do, since they're essentially expanded versions of playing with the same concepts. It's why I bring it back to the change in the portrayal of the Titans. I can't see the Titans as we meet them in Legion purposefully empowering the Dragon Aspects as part of a self-fulfilling prophecy that hinges on them being empowered in the first place and then being sterilized after they'd run their course. I can believe it from the Titans before it then, even if the writers likely couldn't which is why that plot point is such an asspulled carfire and I can believe it when Shadowlands pulls what's essentially the same plot with the Eternal Ones who're all iterations on concepts discouraged from learning their own artificiality, hence the Primus mentioning they're banned from entering Zereth Mortis.

I think a lot of people are dismissing the mention of patterns and geometry and the like as being extraneous fluff when for a change the story does seem aware of the implications of what it's getting and is even major plot points on it. As someone who's tended to be bored to tears of the world antagonist expansions I've been surprised in how much I've bothered to look into the Shadowlands details, which either means my taste buds have atrophied or that it's very niche. More likely though, they're right however in so far as beyond how much such a story can even be told in an MMO, it's told in an obtuse way that runs counter to the extremely basic approach taken to character dynamics. Shadowlands doesn't go through with frontloading its ideas in favor of explaining them in side elements and environmental storytelling. In addition, while I think thematically it touches upon things the game has done before and explores it further in terms of the actual names and faces used and because it contradicts Chronicle which essentially solved the setting you have no buy-in into this material which further complicates the telling of the plot.

@Sondrelk

It's a consequence of the problems of the Chronicle trying to make a soft magic system into a hard magic system and half-assing it in a way that leaves what these powers actually envision extremely unclear. Just for one example, before Chronicle the Legion and necromancy gelled perfectly as abusing the same kind of vague dark magic. However, after Chronicle and up to Shadowlands you had this weird juxtaposition where Death was meant to be a cosmic force all its own yet it had zero representatives of its own since virtually undead we've seen was created through fel magic by demons either directly or not, so what the fuck is Death in that case? How is Life separate from Order in as much as both act upon reality and the Titans have created conservatories that dealt with the creation of vegetation and animals? Etc. etc. It's only with the Shadowlands' retcons as to what the Helm of Domination is that they've retroactively turned the undead into actual representatives of Death. Shadowlands' cosmology dips further into trying to make it fit into a slightly harder and reasoned setup, but it fails chiefly because this is an issue few people care about and because people've gotten used to the present setup and have been told this is it only for the writers to pivot away from it.

[Soulwind]

I'm sure theres more thought to it then people cynically think.

Okay, I'll reword it in a fairer way.

I'm sure there are people in the writing team who actually care and spend hundreds of hours thinking of ways to move the story forward, leaving hints while keeping things vague, and setting up twists and turns. People who then read these forums and are probably hurt to see players react so negatively to their work.

But I'm also certain that some suit will look at a couple of charts, and demand that the next expansion has to be about flying monkeys, and that the current most popular character in the game has to die in the intro, throwing half of what was planned into the bin immediately, and leaving the other half not making any sense.

[Kiivar86]

Ah, found the interview I was thinking of

https://www.wowhead.com/news/bellula...wapping-316889

Excellent too, thanks!

Ah, that date, 7/13/20, no wonder I missed it, I was just starting recovery from a stroke, so I was a little preoccupied, to say the least.

[Nyel]

I think it was obvious that's where this cosmic story line was going as soon as they announced it.

Like guaranteed you will have to unite all the cosmic forces and defeat the "true enemy" by game's finale. Probably also why this story already so boring and its barely even been told.

I mean how do you top cosmic? So what’s bigger than that? Because that’s obviously what the 7th force is, lol.

I like Sondrelks theory, but that sounds a bit too cliche.

So we have the Uber-Titans in the First Ones, we have the Uber-Force in the form of Azeroth, what’s next? This infinite adding of new and even more Uber entities is getting annoying.

[Sondrelk]

I mean how do you top cosmic? So what’s bigger than that? Because that’s obviously what the 7th force is, lol.

I like Sondrelks theory, but that sounds a bit too cliche.

Which theory? The reincarnated Titan theory?
I admit it's not the best theory in the world, but I made it more as a way to make the Titans actually relevant, and additionally explain why they are in our universe and not in the realm of Order.

[Super Dickmann]

But I'm also certain that some suit will look at a couple of charts, and demand that the next expansion has to be about flying monkeys, and that the current most popular character in the game has to die in the intro, throwing half of what was planned into the bin immediately, and leaving the other half not making any sense.

Ordinarily I'd agree with you but the corporate suits both don't care about the story so long as it ships copies and also they agreed to give Alex millions upon millions of dollars for execrable Sadfang cinematics at the expense of 8.2.5 having zero content, so I'm fairly sure that the story team is kept on a loose leash. Too loose a leash sometimes.

I subscribe to the theory that the writers care but are massive hacks.

[Sondrelk]

Okay, I'll reword it in a fairer way.

I'm sure there are people in the writing team who actually care and spend hundreds of hours thinking of ways to move the story forward, leaving hints while keeping things vague, and setting up twists and turns. People who then read these forums and are probably hurt to see players react so negatively to their work.

But I'm also certain that some suit will look at a couple of charts, and demand that the next expansion has to be about flying monkeys, and that the current most popular character in the game has to die in the intro, throwing half of what was planned into the bin immediately, and leaving the other half not making any sense.

If we are expecting corporate interference i would have expected a complete 180 on the cosmic direction of the game, which could lead into a smaller stakes expansion that the story desperately needs to find its footing.

[Nyel]

You know what I would like? Azeroth saying I‘m out, I don’t want you and I don’t need you anymore. And waging war on us after she’s woken up prematurely.

[Sondrelk]

Ordinarily I'd agree with you but the corporate suits both don't care about the story so long as it ships copies and also they agreed to give Alex millions upon millions of dollars for execrable Sadfang cinematics at the expense of 8.2.5 having zero content, so I'm fairly sure that the story team is kept on a loose leash. Too loose a leash sometimes.

I subscribe to the theory that the writers care but are massive hacks.

I am still a firm believe that the writers are not incompetent, but are rather struggling to build a metaphorical Jenga tower even as the foundation crumbles underneath them.

The game desperately needs to let everything settle. Not just in terms of the stakes, but also the breakneck speed the story needs to go at considering how little time there is for actual in-game story.
Let everything settle, then start carefully constructing the plot going forwards.

[NikolaiShade]

You know what I would like? Azeroth saying I‘m out, I don’t want you and I don’t need you anymore. And waging war on us after she’s woken up prematurely.

No idea if you are joking, but it would honestly be one of the coolest twist in videogame history

[Sondrelk]

No idea if you are joking, but it would honestly be one of the coolest twist in videogame history

Wasn't that almost exactly the plot of the latest FFXIV expansion?