1. #21021
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Engineering isn't a class. There is a difference between classes and professions.



    The lore of the Blademaster is that they're so quick that they appear invisible, or appear to be at more places at once. That said, two abilities is not enough to build a three-spec class around. Other classes eat up whatever other concepts you could develop for it. Such a concept would be more shallow than the Demon Hunter class concept, which was so shallow they could barely come up with two specializations for it.
    On top of that, there's orc blademasters in org who are warrior trainers. There's ever Dark Rangers who are hunter trainers.

    Let them inhale their copium all they want with their wishful thinking, well be having Tinkers very soon.
    Last edited by Varx; 2022-01-27 at 07:23 PM.

  2. #21022
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The lore of the Blademaster is that they're so quick that they appear invisible, or appear to be at more places at once. That said, two abilities is not enough to build a three-spec class around. Other classes eat up whatever other concepts you could develop for it. Such a concept would be more shallow than the Demon Hunter class concept, which was so shallow they could barely come up with two specializations for it.
    Pure opinion. Four abilities were more than enough to build a few classes, as you are always quick to point out when referencing the your views on the legitimacy of any class suggestion.

    Long story short, it is different from Warrior. Just as Hunter is different from Tinker.

    People wouldn't be asking for it otherwise.

  3. #21023
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Have you actually met any representatives of this legendary demographic, though? I haven't. It's an incredibly rosy interpretation of the data they're being presented.

    On the other hand, I personally know dozens of people who will buy an expansion hoping it has something to "hook" them, and drop off when Blizzard fails to set that hook. Personal anecdote, sure. But these types of players will show up the same on spreadsheet. Which way would you prefer to explain this trend to your boss?
    I see several of them in my guild.
    They join for a few raids at the beginning of the expansion, and maybe some in the middle. Then they slowly disappear before returning in style a month or so before the next expansion rolls around.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  4. #21024
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Odd indeed. Considering it wouldn't even address the one problem its supposed to fix.

    Going to have to /doubt this one.
    yeah. this was months ago so i have no idea if anything has changed since then, but that was how it was when i saw it.
    you couldn't even join group with opposite faction using normal invite to group, everything had to happen through group finder apply/invite ui

    a couple other things i forgot to mention:

    main city is on border of green/black zones, shared by both factions
    huge gate style entrance with draconic/carved stone style appearance. same architecture as the structure in center of map. was one huge mega-city in the past but the part between the tower and current town is destroyed/ruins and is part of the center zone open world area

    did not see a single mention of sylvanas or tyrande but many story and quest elements were not implemented

    blue, red, and bronze zones were really barren and didn't have much content in them yet. green and black were more fleshed out. green is the first zone you enter after the intro quest/scenario (which was not implemented)

  5. #21025
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I see several of them in my guild.
    They join for a few raids at the beginning of the expansion, and maybe some in the middle. Then they slowly disappear before returning in style a month or so before the next expansion rolls around.
    That's talking to their patterns of activity. Not the psychology behind that pattern, as implied by the term "tourist." Is it the intent of those players to come in, look around, and bow out shortly thereafter from the outset, like they've planned a short vacation? Or is their intent different? I don't know a single person who has purchased an expansion just looking to do the first raid, if that. They want to get hooked on WoW again. And like you say... they slowly drift away.

    I find the term "tourist" to be an intentionally innocuous term used to explain away the failure of their game to retain their initial playerbase.

  6. #21026
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I'm still not seeing your solution here.

    Blizz makes big money off box sales, and sub fees. Moving to a seasonal model means no box sales, probably no sub money (if we're truly embracing the mode), and less players because the bad gameplay will never be fixed.

    Seems to me like you're just asking for Maintenance Mode and Shutdown.
    Uhm there is always a big box per year for 30-40 dollars. And then you have smaller stuff that you can sell either as DLC or with the sub. As I said, ESO model and you make money money money.

    ESO has four content releases per year:

    Dungeon DLC: $10
    Expansion: $40
    Dungeon DLC: $10
    Mini-expansion: $20

    You can sub to get the DLCs for free as long as you're subbed. In the end you most likely will generate more cash than WoW does with just one expansion every two years + sub fees.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-01-27 at 07:32 PM.
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  7. #21027
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Pure opinion. Four abilities were more than enough to build a few classes, as you are always quick to point out when referencing the your views on the legitimacy of any class suggestion.

    Long story short, it is different from Warrior. Just as Hunter is different from Tinker.

    People wouldn't be asking for it otherwise.
    It's four abilities alongside weapons, thematics, and purpose. In the case of BMs, the purpose and thematics are already consumed by other classes, and unlike Metamorphosis, Bladestorm fits in the Warrior class just fine. For example, Blademasters are masters of 2H weapons, and so are Arms Warriors, which is why the latter has Bladestorm. So right off the bat a huge part of their purpose is eaten up by another class. What about speed and invisibility? We have Rogues and Demon Hunters that take up that aspect, and Rogues can even turn invisible and produce Shadow Clones, so what unique gameplay concept is this class bringing to the table? Can we develop even 2 specializations from such a concept?

    I'm going to say no.

    So at best, all we're doing is creating an Orc version of the Demon Hunter class; a 2-spec melee DPS/Tank class that is far more boring than Demon Hunters and doesn't even have something cool like Metamorphosis to base around. Seriously, why not just play an Orc Rogue?

    Also who's asking for it exactly? I'm sure if you conduct a poll, desire for Blademasters would be in the single digits.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2022-01-27 at 07:34 PM.

  8. #21028
    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post
    Seventh force is Xel'naga. They created First Ones, best known as Protoss, the firstborn, and ascended Protoss created Six Forces and Warcraft Universe.
    I hate it when people say this bullshit, as the Xel'naga are simply Titans, but bound to 1 Universe only, cause that's the thing they did for it, making an infinite cycle of a singular plane, with Amon existing in the Void, etc etc.

    The First Ones made the 6, and balanced them out using the Pattern, the scales that bind each power, and keep them together, with Reality being its own beast, 6 = 1, but also not that? It's odd lol. But I always liked the idea that the First Ones themselves may just pop in and will everything out of existence using the Zereth's cause Azeroth's corrupted, or is gonna be unleashed or so. And if that happens, we're all fucked, so we have to aid her, and show the First Ones we're capable of anything, even surpassing the makers of Warcraft, by literally stepping OUTSIDE the pattern, and seeing the dawn of all fictional stories willed into by the First Ones, with different sources of Ephemera (Like the Source), etc being learned about and learning of multiple universes, and branches made by the Progenitors, with different Cosmologies and forms of Automa being willed by them, till we have to face them.

    I mean, we already know Zovaal was literally going to dominate the pattern VIA dominating each Zereth, which houses the very heart and origin of the Cosmic Forces, and we know forces such as Light and Shadow cannot exist without the other on a fundamental lvl, meaning if Light or Shadow claims Azeroth or dominates the 6, then everything that we know of by the First Ones would be destroyed, AKA the pattern, the very core and origin of each Force and Realm, etc.

    It's actually fucking crazy, tbh. But I'd say go all in, we're basically at Presence/Lucifer lvls of power, step a bit above that now. for 11.0, or so, since 10.0 is already a damn...well...smaller personal expac, as Zovaal, a being who serves as the Devil in Warcraft lore is getting slammed by the Players, who wield might of the very heart of Death itself, which is Eternity.

  9. #21029
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I hate it when people say this bullshit, as the Xel'naga are simply Titans, but bound to 1 Universe only, cause that's the thing they did for it, making an infinite cycle of a singular plane, with Amon existing in the Void, etc etc.

    The First Ones made the 6, and balanced them out using the Pattern, the scales that bind each power, and keep them together, with Reality being its own beast, 6 = 1, but also not that? It's odd lol. But I always liked the idea that the First Ones themselves may just pop in and will everything out of existence using the Zereth's cause Azeroth's corrupted, or is gonna be unleashed or so. And if that happens, we're all fucked, so we have to aid her, and show the First Ones we're capable of anything, even surpassing the makers of Warcraft, by literally stepping OUTSIDE the pattern, and seeing the dawn of all fictional stories willed into by the First Ones, with different sources of Ephemera (Like the Source), etc being learned about and learning of multiple universes, and branches made by the Progenitors, with different Cosmologies and forms of Automa being willed by them, till we have to face them.

    I mean, we already know Zovaal was literally going to dominate the pattern VIA dominating each Zereth, which houses the very heart and origin of the Cosmic Forces, and we know forces such as Light and Shadow cannot exist without the other on a fundamental lvl, meaning if Light or Shadow claims Azeroth or dominates the 6, then everything that we know of by the First Ones would be destroyed, AKA the pattern, the very core and origin of each Force and Realm, etc.

    It's actually fucking crazy, tbh. But I'd say go all in, we're basically at Presence/Lucifer lvls of power, step a bit above that now. for 11.0, or so, since 10.0 is already a damn...well...smaller personal expac, as Zovaal, a being who serves as the Devil in Warcraft lore is getting slammed by the Players, who wield might of the very heart of Death itself, which is Eternity.
    What are you reading into to come to any of these conclusions?

  10. #21030
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    .... and later imprisoned in Uldir.
    I mean that would imply ghuun had any freedom

    He was a lab specimen

  11. #21031
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    C-tier MMORPG? You know that ESO is next to WoW one of the Top 4/5 MMORPGs on the market? Pretty sure ESO is generating more cash than WoW solely because of the business model and their atrocious loot boxes.
    Wow is about 10% of Activision's 5 billion yearly revenue. That's still 5 times higher than Zenimax's yearly revenue, and that's the entire company. If ESO is the third biggest fantasy mmo that's only because there's a huge gap between it & wow.

  12. #21032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    What are you reading into to come to any of these conclusions?
    I am not sure what I read.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  13. #21033
    People arguing over classes is dumb. The next class is obvious. It is a dragon themed class with a tinker spec with piloting a mecha-dragon, a necromancer spec where you raise frostwyrms and a bard spec where you tell epic lore of the dragonflights through song to aid your allies.

  14. #21034
    Quote Originally Posted by therewillbedragons View Post
    cross faction is in. group through group finder only. could talk in party/raid chat but not in open world or public channels. no xfaction guilds.
    If that's the case then this system will be useless. I hope you're wrong because Cross-Faction implementation in 10.0 is more important for me than its theme/setting.

  15. #21035
    Quote Originally Posted by Therougetitan View Post
    People arguing over classes is dumb. The next class is obvious. It is a dragon themed class with a tinker spec with piloting a mecha-dragon, a necromancer spec where you raise frostwyrms and a bard spec where you tell epic lore of the dragonflights through song to aid your allies.
    Awesome, I want it!

    Edit: Clearly it will be called Draconic Tinkmanceard

  16. #21036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    If that's the case then this system will be useless. I hope you're wrong because Cross-Faction implementation in 10.0 is more important for me than its theme/setting.
    Its pretty much fits with Blizzards usual design decisions though, i can totally see it happening.


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  17. #21037
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Very excellent observation, though if I may add, I maintain that the best way to adequately represent the seventh force isn't the summation of all of the forces (i.e. reality), but rather the underlying Hegelian sublation between all of them which permits reality to function. Perhaps it would be sensible, and it could arguably demonstrate more of the overlap between different forces—this would explain, for instance, how delving too deep into Arcane magic invariably leads to the Fel. It would be a very interesting way of bringing in the kind of philosophy they're trying to otherwise portray—they're actually making an interesting attempt at what would be otherwise an unconventional quality of profundity for such an otherwise traditional fantasy setting with few truly unique or surreal elements (i.e. Curse of Flesh).

    I'd love to see the whole geometry plot hook explored if they simply made more of an effort to integrate the philosophy into the story and made absolutely, positively certain to do as much research as possible into the theory. It would be very fascinating to see a story like that, and it would fit with some of the more out-there elements in WoW's lore (again, Curse of Flesh).
    It's 2 separate songs, prolly one whole song of the 6, and another one of Reality. It does say "The song of the First Ones must not end", and we have "her voice will awaken the others", so one song keeps something asleep (Like Azeroth, which could be the heart of Reality, and the power within it is more than a Titan, but a power that connects in the unionization of all things), and the other keeps the balance of the 6 in tact, a song that the First Ones made for their first specimens of their language (Which is the 6...)

    So, it DOES seem like one song is for the intersections, and the OTHER is for the heart of the pattern itself, which could be why the Forces themselves are so antagonistic, and their embodiments so jealous of one another.

    Makes me wonder...what are the Light's Pantheons akin to? The "Divine Council" or something?

  18. #21038
    Quote Originally Posted by datguy81 View Post
    Tinker is never gonna happen we have Engineering
    Honestly, Tinker is the only remaining class idea I feel like can't be reasonably done through extra specs or "class skins."

    Necromancer works just fine as an overlay for Warlock. Spellbreaker is harder because the ideas are spread out, but Paladin or Warrior (with Spell Reflection) could probably fit well enough with a thorough overlay. Dark Ranger is basically just a Hunter with some shadow abilities (and maybe zombie pets), so it's more of a spec than a full class. Blademaster should be a Warrior spec and I argued that Arms be reimagined in that direction before because Arms and Fury basically have the same theme right now and need better distinction.

    Tinker, however, done right should be about Goblins and Gnomes jumping into racially themed mechs and staying that way for the duration of combat and probably as mounts. Kinda like Demon Hunter in the sense of an extremely limited but extremely themed class, but unlike any other class in the reliance on the mechs as a new mechanic. Any other races given Tinker should be chosen very carefully. Perhaps draenei/lightforged draenei due to the Warframes and their other mechs, and maybe blood elves for the blood golems.
    Quote Originally Posted by bruxx View Post
    While I could see this working in china, no way they would expect to keep their customers in the west with such a business model... right?
    I might have said that ten years ago, but nowadays this sort of thing is all over the place in the West. The general idea is basically a battle pass, which seem to be increasingly ubiquitous despite the increasing criticism. I could totally see this happening. The fact that it obviously would lead to a massive controversy isn't even a reason to not expect it, because that hasn't stopped any other company.

    A good example of something more in the line of seasonal content rather than battle passes that has continued on despite strong criticism is the payment model of GW2's living world. Between expansions they do updates every two to three months (well, that's their plan anyway, it always goes off schedule) that advance the story, add new maps, and give you little optional things to keep you busy until the next one. In general I'm fine with the content drops (especially since the game is buy-to-play and I can drop into these without any barrier), the problem is how they monetize them. They're free for anyone who logs in while it's the current chapter. The moment it's not, you have to buy it for a cash shop currency.

    The problem is that these chapters are crucial parts of the story, yet they don't come with the expansion purchases. A huge criticism is that for any new players, the game markets it like most MMOs "oh just pick up the expansions and you'll be good to go," but doesn't tell you that the story is going to be full of colossal holes if you don't independently put up money (through a cash shop currency) for random chapters buried away in the store. Despite constantly pointing out how this is a confusing and major wall for new players getting invested into the game and story, no changes to the formula have ever been made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    Okay, I'll reword it in a fairer way.

    I'm sure there are people in the writing team who actually care and spend hundreds of hours thinking of ways to move the story forward, leaving hints while keeping things vague, and setting up twists and turns. People who then read these forums and are probably hurt to see players react so negatively to their work.

    But I'm also certain that some suit will look at a couple of charts, and demand that the next expansion has to be about flying monkeys, and that the current most popular character in the game has to die in the intro, throwing half of what was planned into the bin immediately, and leaving the other half not making any sense.
    Yeah. I don't always make sure to get it across, but I've assumed this is how the writing works and try to be polite about it when I think about it. Not only have I heard from writers in the games industry in general that, even in story-focused games, they're treated as the least important team and made to conform to what everyone else is doing, but we know even Chris Metzen didn't have complete control. The Forsaken were created in Warcraft III as a compromise to appease other devs who wanted to be able to play Scourge characters in World of Warcraft, so that whole plotline may not exist if not for that pressure, just as one example we know about.
    Last edited by Jokubas; 2022-01-28 at 12:51 AM.

  19. #21039
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    What are you reading into to come to any of these conclusions?
    "I hate it when people say this bullshit, as the Xel'naga are simply Titans, but bound to 1 Universe only, cause that's the thing they did for it, making an infinite cycle of a singular plane, with Amon existing in the Void, etc etc."

    Ok...I do not mean what I say with that LITERALLY, but they would be MAYBE on that level of power, basically. But yeah, the Firim stuff is what I get in what I say...yes.

  20. #21040
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Its highly unlikely that leak is even true.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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