Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Ersula]

Even if the expansion is not themed around dragons, if there is one dragon in the media coverage (as all expansions have included a dragon in some way) & the expansion features a landmass, all the Dragon Isles people are going to pat themselves on the back for being "right" about the next expansion

[LordyLordy]

It's even more funny when they add they keep adding more exotic animals like axolotl and wombats. I'm willing to bet they will add platypus before ducks.

Getting a whole new wombat model in this patch made me think that maybe they're using an asset from next expansion.

There are a few real life regions that are not really seen in WoW before, and one of them is definitely Australia. That made me think of Aboriginal mythology about dreams and dreamtime... Maybe we are going to some variation of Emerald Dream next. Would explain the datamined green dragon mount, too, since green dragonflight is very connected to Emerald Dream.

Australia-type of expansion could be a land long lost and we would arrive there as settlers. That would also give us some form of player housing/settlements we could start building, unlocking, and personalizing like Garrisons, but open world (think Isle of Quel'danas campaign or MoP patch 5.1 in Krasarang Wilds).

Getting easily out of hand just thinking about it!

[Hitei]

Getting a whole new wombat model in this patch made me think that maybe they're using an asset from next expansion.

There are a few real life regions that are not really seen in WoW before, and one of them is definitely Australia. That made me think of Aboriginal mythology about dreams and dreamtime... Maybe we are going to some variation of Emerald Dream next. Would explain the datamined green dragon mount, too, since green dragonflight is very connected to Emerald Dream.

Australia-type of expansion could be a land long lost and we would arrive there as settlers. That would also give us some form of player housing/settlements we could start building, unlocking, and personalizing like Garrisons, but open world (think Isle of Quel'danas campaign or MoP patch 5.1 in Krasarang Wilds).

Getting easily out of hand just thinking about it!

Well, there was that sourceless pseudo-riddle leak a couple days back that implied an African continent. Wouldn't be surprising to see them hybridize between the two continents.

[Shadochi]

I want floating Dragon Isles. Like one large, a couple of medium-sized, and then a few smaller islands just floating mid-air with waterfalls and everything. Similar to Dalaran and Nagrand.

Maybe they once resided out at sea, but in order to ward themselves from the encroaching Old Gods' tendrils below they broke off from the seabed.

Where they once stood could be these black, jagged cliffs. Saronite, maybe. Just waves continuously crashing against them. In the middle is an entrance to an old Titan vault which the dragons had to leave behind, and it is now overrun by the minions of the Old Gods. It could be a dungeon.

I want at least one of the zones to be a regular island and we actually can regularly fly between them on mounts

[huth]

Proudly presenting the next chapter in the history of Warcraft:

[IMG]

That goose without saying.

[Shadochi]

Still waiting for the Corgi expansion.
They should do WoW:Animal Expansion and have all the different animals. All the dungeons and raids aren't fought by the players but instead utilize pet battles

[LordyLordy]

Well, there was that sourceless pseudo-riddle leak a couple days back that implied an African continent. Wouldn't be surprising to see them hybridize between the two continents.

Ooh! I missed this!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

SNIP

While I think Le Conceptuel already did a great breakdown, I think that intrinsically you're missing the base point as of why it's simply not a compelling narrative to tie Zovaal into the Burning Legion and The Lich King.

As much as you want to split hairs between the Nathrezim purposely setting up Sargeras or taking advantage of it, the issue is that the Burning Crusade was still infiltrated, and ultimately used, for Zovaal's plan. It's not just a tenuous connection, but a whole ass multi step plan where they take the soul of Argus and use it to break the Arbiter.

Same with the Helm of Domination, which was not just a random item from the Shadowlands, but explicitly created by Zovaal to further expand his plans.

It is "influence" because as I just explained in thorough detail, Sargeras wasn't manipulated,

See, this is the part where you're not getting my complain; It's not whether Sargeras was manipulated or not, but how the narrative connects every major event to a plan of Zovaal that has now come into fruition.

That's what sucks narratively. Your whole point would actually have weight if, say, the Nathrezim infiltration of the Burning Legion didn't produced any results and was FRAMED as a failed attempt of Zovaal. But no, instead, the destruction of the BL and death of Argus is all on Zovaal's favor and part of his plan.

That's what you're not getting, It's not about the lore not making sense or being retconned, but about how it's just narratively unsatisfactory that two of our greatest enemies are not simply connected to Zovaal, but were actively PLANS of him, regardless of his level of involvement, two plans that ultimately, worked on his favor.

You're trying to shield any criticism by saying "He did not plan everything to happen!" When the issue is that having the Burning Legion successfully infiltrated and the Lich King made into part of his plan and not a Nathrezim blunder, it cheapens both narratively as merely tools of Zovaal.

It's nothing but a cheap power escalation, where each villain is more powerful than the one that came before. "Actually Zovaal infiltrated the Burning legion and Sargeras had no idea his crusade was being used by Zovaal to free himself. Actually the Lich King wasn't a random mistake, but intentional"

[Edward Wu]

Damn it, I clicked on @ercarp's sig and now I miss Legion, too.

Actually, I mostly just really miss Suramar and the Broken Isles. What a fantastic continent. 7.0-7.1.5 was an amazing time to be a WoW fan.

[ercarp]

Damn it, I clicked on @ercarp's sig and now I miss Legion, too.

Actually, I mostly just really miss Suramar and the Broken Isles. What a fantastic continent. 7.0-7.1.5 was an amazing time to be a WoW fan.

I've played since late Vanilla, but for whatever reason, Legion still stands above all the rest for me. It was the best time I had in the game, period. Although the fact that I didn't resubscribe until 7.1.5 might have worked in my favor somewhat since there was even more content to explore and some of the worst bugs had been ironed out by then. But even from an objective standpoint, I would say that Legion's setting was still very faithful to Warcraft, and Artifact Weapons and Legendaries were a ton of fun to play with even if the acquisition wasn't the best.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Or, you know, he could just point out the times when it didn't work. Besides, with this approach it was inevitable and part of the (overarching) plan. Fire a shotgun enough and eventually you'll hit something. That doesn't make him not an opportunist, though. It just means his grand plan was largely based on trying everything and going with what happens to work out.

You're pretty much just ignoring everything that contradicts your assumptions then claim there is no evidence to the contrary.

No, I'm saying that the story, the narrative, never frames it as such.

NO ONE even contests the effectiveness of Zovaal's plans. You could TOTALLY sell the idea these are endless plans set into motion, but the narrative itself never points out at this. Just a lot of "I have waited for this for so long"

Zovaal isn't been written as "Firing a shotgun enough and eventually you'll hit something", that would actually BE cool. You have to understand the difference of what is being inferred, what can be interpreted, and the narrative that's being told.

That's why it's a storytelling issue, not a plot one: All it took was to present Zovaal as a pondering villain, focused on possibilities, to SELL the role of someone that has been taken opportunities.

That's what's so frustrating about these conversations: Stuff like.

That doesn't make him not an opportunist, though. It just means his grand plan was largely based on trying everything and going with what happens to work out.

YES!! That's the Zovaal we should have had, but WHERE is that on his ACTUAL characterization?

What we can infer he has done, what makes SENSE for him to have done, is not something that is reflected in terms of storytelling at all. Not on his dialogue, not on how others talk about him. It's implied at best, which is why he sucks as a character.

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To me, this is the biggest disappointment of Shadowlands. There's a lot of things I wish were done differently, but when it comes to Zovaal's plot, we really needed to see what he was involved in. Retcon or no, it would have felt so much more powerful to actually see how the context of old events was being expanded. There was a lot of controversy over how little we knew about what the villains were trying to achieve, but we also didn't really learn anything about how they got to where they were which should have been fair game. I was really looking forward to us examining these old plots and loose threads through a new lens, but for the most part we're left to assume.

Exactly, Zovaal could have been characterized far more interestingly as someone that goes over and over all the plates he has spinning, even maybe obsessed with the minutia of everything, trying to think of all the possibilities.

The plot itself could remain almost unchanged, but by actually writing him as "deceptively cunning" we could have had so more in terms of investment.

People joke that it was "Zovaal All Along" when the problem is, that he completely lacks the charisma and personality of someone like Agatha, which, funnily enough, wasn't even responsibly, but she played it as if it were.

There are some problems with Zovaal's influence just outright cheapening the Burning Legion and the Lich King, but if the narrative had actually focused on giving Zovaal a compelling characterization it wouldn't be an issue, because the problem is ultimatelly, the lack of narrative satisfaction, having such a bland character be connected or be the cause of over half of the problems we have faced.

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Disagree. The interpretation that he set countless plans into motion and simply capitalised on the ones that worked out to his favour makes far more sense.
He previously made it clear that the Lich King thing didn't really work the way he wanted it to, so it's clear that not all plans worked out for him, and not all pawns ended up being useful.

Us not seeing all the failed plans is simply a matter of there only being a limited amount of time to tell the story, so the focus is going to be on the plans that actually worked and are thus of concern to us.

And like I said before, that's the problem. It's not about "what makes more sense" it's how about how the narrative fails to portray it on a character level.

Here's the problem, Zovaal has the depth of a Wikipedia entry. Sure, it's all the necessary information, but it lacks what a character needs, which is, well, characterization.

My issue is not with the plot points, but how it fails to build a compelling narrative or character around them.

I would be far less critical of how he cheapens the Burning Legion and the Lich King if he was actually a well characterized villain.

You're basically saying "there was no time to give him a characterization"

[Teriz]

You never know.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I've played since late Vanilla, but for whatever reason, Legion still stands above all the rest for me. It was the best time I had in the game, period. Although the fact that I didn't resubscribe until 7.1.5 might have worked in my favor somewhat since there was even more content to explore and some of the worst bugs had been ironed out by then. But even from an objective standpoint, I would say that Legion's setting was still very faithful to Warcraft, and Artifact Weapons and Legendaries were a ton of fun to play with even if the acquisition wasn't the best.

Honestly I view Legion less but thats mostly because seeing this forum hate on it(And one specific individual who loathed it). It just made part of it a drag. I do think people need to understand that enough older lore is eventually gonna go out unless they retread it in different ways(I mean the return of the Burning Legion is cliche but don't say someone hasn't thought of it cause I guess they have).

[Hitei]

Ooh! I missed this!

In text form:

What is this, Wakanda?
Green vs Black
A crown jewel again!
A confident prince
Tempter in the blade
Hope you like sunshine
Seek new power all over
Let's play together!

Personally I think it's just vague bullshit, but obviously there are some claims in there, like cross-faction.

[Fahrad Wagner]

New leak:

Now that's a proper LEAKKKKK. Time to get wet boyzzzz

Proudly presenting the next chapter in the history of Warcraft:

Omg that butter knife I CAN'T EVEN-

The gift that keeps on giving. Oh. My. Dazzling. Duck.

[Edward Wu]

Wouldn't mind an expansion set in WoW's distant far past. Imagine Chromie in a last-ditch effort after Zovaal or someone irrevocably ruins Azeroth transports the Horde & Alliance back in time.

[Ersula]

Reject modernity, embrace futurism. This logo but Warcraft

with this theme song (its just as good as endwalker's theme song)

[Fahrad Wagner]

I've played since late Vanilla, but for whatever reason, Legion still stands above all the rest for me. It was the best time I had in the game, period. Although the fact that I didn't resubscribe until 7.1.5 might have worked in my favor somewhat since there was even more content to explore and some of the worst bugs had been ironed out by then. But even from an objective standpoint, I would say that Legion's setting was still very faithful to Warcraft, and Artifact Weapons and Legendaries were a ton of fun to play with even if the acquisition wasn't the best.

I'm right there with you mate! Legion was an absolute banger to me. I didn't love Broken Shores or Argus, but the original Broken Isles content was fantastic, and Suramar was exceptional! Now if only they had gone with the idea of giving the Nightborne a French accent...

Who goez zere? An illuzion? What arrre you yding?

Now, that would have been the cherry on the cake.

You never know.

That logo is very good too by the way, good job!

[ercarp]

That logo is very good too by the way, good job!

This one went by me somehow. Wow. I completely agree. Great job, @Teriz! I always kind of sucked at making custom borders for my logos so I just tried to obscure them a bit so people wouldn't call me out on using the default ones (but they did anyway, of course).

[Fahrad Wagner]

This one went by me somehow. Wow. I completely agree. Great job, @Teriz! I always kind of sucked at making custom borders for my logos so I just tried to obscure them a bit so people wouldn't call me out on using the default ones (but they did anyway, of course).

Stop it Ercarp, you're great at this! And you got us all with one of your fake leaks a few years back haha