Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Teriz]

Yeah, I never really wanted them to go there, but when the Chronicle initially seemed to re-pitch Warcraft as ultimately a fight to keep the Void Lords from devouring all existence, and I stopped believing they would allow cross-faction play, there were a few other places I thought they might go.

Isn't that the job of the Titans?

- - - Updated - - -

So void enemies.

Xal'atath and Wrathion are more Darth Vader and Palpatine than "The Void".

[Catastrophy349]

I've been really good at not spoiling the story for myself post 9.1. I know virtually nothing for 9.2. So, I'm excited for that and 10.0, of course. Furthermore, I am pumped with wherever the story goes for 10.0. I'm indifferent toward the direction.

[Teriz]

We don't need to overthink this. Power and control are perfectly good and believable reasons for breaking the status quo. Wars were (and are about to) be fought over power.

Something is going to break the balance, and whatever Zovaal (or insert some other character like Wrathion) is doing is going to trigger that event.

As for the antagonist part, I get it. That's the problem with Zovaal. We have no name and no face to this antagonist until Shadowlands, and now they tell us it was he who put all these things in motion, and it was hard to digest.

So Blizz needs to put a face and name to the next big bad now if they want us to deal with the Void eventually. No more cryptic clues, no more puzzles and riddles. No more flavour text hidden inside books in the game.

I agree. Zovaal was quite the ass-pull, and I don't want to see that happen again. What made Garrosh entertaining as a villain is that you saw his development from TBC all the way to MoP. Granted they kind of ruined his character, but I loved him as warchief and a big bad. We need more Garrosh and less Zovaal.

[huth]

Okay, and how do you stop that from happening, because opposing forces are always duking it out in some form or another. Also who would the raid bosses be? This is like a Star Wars movie where we're fighting the Force instead of users of the force. Darth Vader is a compelling adversary. The dark side of the force is not.

You're mixing up the antagonist with the primary fighting force. The antagonist doesn't have to be a physical being, just a force that acts counter to the protagonists goals. In this case, causing the usual destruction and general mayhem that comes with a war being fought while we would very much like our stuff to stay in one piece.

The main enemies would be various entities and groups aligned with the two forces, like Lightbound, Naaru, yellow and blue trashbags or Old God cultists and servants.

Also, wrong SciFa franchise, although it isn't as unfitting as you seem to imagine. But i'd look more towards Babylon 5.

[Teriz]

You're mixing up the antagonist with the primary fighting force. The antagonist doesn't have to be a physical being, just a force that acts counter to the protagonists goals. In this case, causing the usual destruction and general mayhem that comes with a war being fought while we would very much like our stuff to stay in one piece.

Okay, but forces like that aren't evil by nature, they just exist. It's like saying we're going to have an expansion where we fight a giant asteroid heading to Azeroth. That's a force acting against the protagonists' goals, and will cause tons of destruction and mayhem, but it simply doesn't work as a plot for a fantasy MMO. The void in of itself isn't evil, and many users of the void aren't evil either. The same applies for the light, so in what scenario would either one act to counter our goals? They're ever-present forces that have existed seemingly since time began.

The main enemies would be various entities and groups aligned with the two forces, like Lightbound, Naaru, yellow and blue trashbags or Old God cultists and servants.

Also, wrong SciFa franchise, although it isn't as unfitting as you seem to imagine. But i'd look more towards Babylon 5.

So what's the plot here? That we're going to witness a massive civil war between light and void forces, beat them, and then take the fight to the light and void itselves? So what happens after that? Do we unmake reality? Does reality reset itself? Again, it's an incredibly goofy idea. It's like after we destroy the asteroid we go off to some other plane of existence and try to beat up gravity!

[Aeluron Lightsong]

So what's the plot here? That we're going to witness a massive civil war between light and void forces, beat them, and then take the fight to the light and void itselves? So what happens after that? Do we unmake reality? Does reality reset itself? Again, it's an incredibly goofy idea.

None of those need to even happen at all, what are you even going on about. The Light and Void will have friendly beings and antaganistic ones. Not hard

[Teriz]

None of those need to even happen at all, what are you even going on about. The Light and Void will have friendly beings and antaganistic ones. Not hard

Yes, but that isn't a light/void expansion, that's just an expansion with antagonists using certain types of magic. For example, Yrel invading Azeroth wouldn't be "the light" invading Azeroth, it would just be an army of crazed Draenei zealots who use holy magic. When you say that we're doing a Light/Void expansion, the antagonists are those cosmic forces, which makes no sense.

[Hitei]

Yes, but that isn't a light/void expansion, that's just an expansion with antagonists using certain types of magic. For example, Yrel invading Azeroth wouldn't be "the light" invading Azeroth, it would just be an army of crazed Draenei zealots who use holy magic. When you say that we're doing a Light/Void expansion, the antagonists are those cosmic forces, which makes no sense.

No, you are interpreting "a Light/Void expansion" as meaning "directly fight the cosmic force itself" as a really badly attempted strawman to try and claim your expansion idea makes more sense.

The Legion expansion was not about fighting Fel magic, or even Sargeras. BC was not about fighting Sargeras. Cata was not about fighting the Void or the Old Gods. Shadowlands isn't about fighting the cosmic force of death. Expansions are about fighting whatever person or group of people are actively attempting an incursion on the planet. In the case of a Void or Light expansion, there's no fighting "Light" or "Void" just like you can't fight the concept of "death", or "chaos", or "order", any expansion about antagonistic Light is going to be about stopping the forces of the Light from invading, be they Draenei, Naaru, some hypothetical Light pantheon, or whatever else. Any expansion about antagonistic Void is going to be about stopping the forces of the Void from invading, e.g. Old Gods, Void Naga, Xal'atath, fragments of Void Lords, etc.

[Teriz]

No, you are interpreting "a Light/Void expansion" as meaning "directly fight the cosmic force itself" as a really badly attempted strawman to try and claim your expansion idea makes more sense.

The Legion expansion was not about fighting Fel magic, or even Sargeras. BC was not about fighting Sargeras. Cata was not about fighting the Void or the Old Gods. Shadowlands isn't about fighting the cosmic force of death. Expansions are about fighting whatever person or group of people are actively attempting an incursion on the planet. In the case of a Void or Light expansion, there's no fighting "Light" or "Void" just like you can't fight the concept of "death", or "chaos", or "order", any expansion about antagonistic Light is going to be about stopping the forces of the Light from invading, be they Draenei, Naaru, some hypothetical Light pantheon, or whatever else. Any expansion about antagonistic Void is going to be about stopping the forces of the Void from invading, e.g. Old Gods, Void Naga, Xal'atath, fragments of Void Lords, etc.

That isn't what Huth said though. Huth said this;

You're mixing up the antagonist with the primary fighting force. The antagonist doesn't have to be a physical being, just a force that acts counter to the protagonists goals.

You're talking about the antagonist having to be a physical being, which I agree with. I don't agree with the notion of us fighting a cosmic "force" in of itself. It simply is not a compelling source of conflict in an MMO.

It should also be noted that simply calling an expansion a Light/Void expansion because there's no viable antagonist means that we're dealing with a bad expansion concept. In other words, there's going to be another asspull villain like Zovaal in place who was supposedly behind everything all along. Compare that to N'Zoth, who had been built up slowly over multiple expansions, and was truly the one behind the veil pulling the strings. N'Zoth was such a great villain that people don't actually believe he's dead after 8.3 and want more of him. On the other hand, most players don't care about Zovaal one way or another.

[Hitei]

That isn't what Huth said though. Huth said this;

I don't know why you are just straight up lying about shit five posts up.

You're mixing up the antagonist with the primary fighting force. The antagonist doesn't have to be a physical being, just a force that acts counter to the protagonists goals. In this case, causing the usual destruction and general mayhem that comes with a war being fought while we would very much like our stuff to stay in one piece.

The main enemies would be various entities and groups aligned with the two forces, like Lightbound, Naaru, yellow and blue trashbags or Old God cultists and servants.

That is exactly what Huth said. Any expansion about either of those forces is going to be about the groups of people associated with those forces who are actually doing the invasion.

You're talking about the antagonist having to be a physical being, which I agree with. I don't agree with the notion of us fighting a cosmic "force" in of itself. It simply is not a compelling source of conflict in an MMO.

Since I can't be bothered to type it a second time:

No, you are interpreting "a Light/Void expansion" as meaning "directly fight the cosmic force itself" as a really badly attempted strawman to try and claim your expansion idea makes more sense.

Every expansion is about fighting the group representing any given conceptual threat. Your headcanon EoD expansion is about fighting Void proxies. If you don't think fighting groups from a threat is a good idea for an MMO why have you been playing this MMO that has been doing that for almost 20 years?

[Teriz]

I don't know why you are just straight up lying about shit five posts up.

That is exactly what Huth said. Any expansion about either of those forces is going to be about the groups of people associated with those forces who are actually doing the invasion.

Then why did he say that the antagonist doesn't have to be a physical being, but just a force?

Since I can't be bothered to type it a second time:

No, you are interpreting "a Light/Void expansion" as meaning "directly fight the cosmic force itself" as a really badly attempted strawman to try and claim your expansion idea makes more sense.

Based on pretty much every expansion idea I've seen involving that theme, that's exactly what it breaks down to. Again, if we're talking Yrel and Old Gods, no problem. However, if you're talking us going to Void Land and fighting the Void, then there's a problem.

Every expansion is about fighting the group representing any given conceptual threat. Your headcanon EoD expansion is about fighting Void proxies. If you don't think fighting groups from a threat is a good idea for an MMO why have you been playing this MMO that has been doing that for almost 20 years?

Now, who's straw-manning? I never said that. I said fighting the cosmic force in of itself is a bad idea.

[Hitei]

Then why did he say that the antagonist doesn't have to be a physical being, but just a force?

Force
n.
3.
-a person or thing regarded as exerting power or influence.

4.an organized body of military personnel or police.
-a group of people brought together and organized for a particular activity.

Based on pretty much every expansion idea I've seen involving that theme, that's exactly what it breaks down to. Again, if we're talking Yrel and Old Gods, no problem. However, if you're talking us going to Void Land and fighting the Void, then there's a problem.

Literally no one, in the history of this entire forum, has ever claimed we are going to go stab the primordial concept "the Void". We could very well step into the Void to end an incursion by incapacitating some of its higher up beings. Like in any expansion involving the Legion, or Shadowlands, or in Cata and BfA.

Now, who's straw-manning?

Still you:

Then why did he say that the antagonist doesn't have to be a physical being, but just a force?

I never said [fighting groups from a threat isn't a good idea for an MMO]. I said fighting the cosmic force in of itself is a bad idea.

Okay, but forces like that aren't evil by nature, they just exist. It's like saying we're going to have an expansion where we fight a giant asteroid heading to Azeroth. That's a force acting against the protagonists' goals, and will cause tons of destruction and mayhem, but it simply doesn't work as a plot for a fantasy MMO. The void in of itself isn't evil, and many users of the void aren't evil either. The same applies for the light, so in what scenario would either one act to counter our goals? They're ever-present forces that have existed seemingly since time began.

So what's the plot here? That we're going to witness a massive civil war between light and void forces, beat them, and then take the fight to the light and void itselves? So what happens after that? Do we unmake reality? Does reality reset itself? Again, it's an incredibly goofy idea. It's like after we destroy the asteroid we go off to some other plane of existence and try to beat up gravity!

[Teriz]

Literally no one, in the history of this entire forum, has ever claimed we are going to go stab the primordial concept "the Void". We could very well step into the Void to end an incursion by incapacitating some of its higher up beings. Like in any expansion involving the Legion, or Shadowlands, or in Cata and BfA.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-Cosmic-Forces

That's one just from yesterday.

Still you:

Where's the straw-man? I said plainly that fighting the cosmic force in of itself is a bad idea, and that fighting something from that force (like a big rock) isn't compelling. Again, you can take someone who uses a cosmic force and make them compelling, but you have to have a person behind the force or it simply doesn't work.

And yeah, these Light/Void expansions without a clear antagonist are troubling. Typically in such expansions we need a main antagonist or we lose steam very quickly.

[Alanar]

Yeah Blizz likes the name/logo to be very concise. It's either based on the primary threat (BC, Wrath, Legion), the location we're going to (MoP, WoD, SL), or some major event attached to the expansion (Cata, BFA).

Empire of Dragons satisfies far as I can tell none of that. It looks like a void expansion which you'd only know if you dissected the logo.

I have seen people try hard to find things like this.. but honestly it doesnt say much and they could go a completely differnt direction for all thats worth.

Trying to find ties like this feels pointless really, but to each and their own I guess.

[huth]

Okay, but forces like that aren't evil by nature, they just exist. It's like saying we're going to have an expansion where we fight a giant asteroid heading to Azeroth. That's a force acting against the protagonists' goals, and will cause tons of destruction and mayhem, but it simply doesn't work as a plot for a fantasy MMO. The void in of itself isn't evil, and many users of the void aren't evil either. The same applies for the light, so in what scenario would either one act to counter our goals? They're ever-present forces that have existed seemingly since time began.

Antagonist != evil. An antagonist merely is a force that does something that is counter to the protagonists goals. Not their morality. The antagonist of a story could even be on the side of good, or possibly on the same side as the protagonist.

A bureaucrat refusing you a permit because you don't fulfill the requirements would be an antagonist. But they're not evil or even intentionally hindering you.

So what's the plot here? That we're going to witness a massive civil war between light and void forces, beat them, and

tell them to get lost. End of story. You keep introducing elements that nobody mentioned and then complain that your own ideas don't work.

[Jokubas]

I have seen people try hard to find things like this.. but honestly it doesnt say much and they could go a completely differnt direction for all thats worth.

Trying to find ties like this feels pointless really, but to each and their own I guess.

I think all of them are pretty unarguably straightforward... except Battle for Azeroth. I had to be explained earlier in this thread how Battle for Azeroth's murky logo communicated anything about its main themes. It doesn't use faction colors, Kul Tiran/Zandalari colors, or N'Zoth colors. The key was in the subtle details, like a movie sword hilt motif in the border, and the background being an ocean rather than the normal map texture, if you look closely enough. That's more than enough precedent for me to imagine that another logo could be less obvious than normal.

Also, even though it's happened before, an expansion logo is not meant to be seen prior to the actual announcement, and once you get the announcement you get the context. Hindsight disguises how often new lore is core to the premise of a new expansion. I remember people speculating that "Cataclysm" was just a synonym for the Sundering and not about an unrelated new event. Legion relied a lot on the Chronicle's new backstory that we didn't have until after Legion was announced.

[Chickat]

I have missed 40 pages. Not reading that much. Have I missed anything new, or any interesting theorys or discussions in the last week?

[Jokubas]

I have missed 40 pages. Not reading that much. Have I missed anything new, or any interesting theorys or discussions in the last week?

Cross-faction instances were officially announced, and there's been some discussion about how that might affect the credibility of leaks that may or may not have mentioned it. Not much else though from what I can think.

[Chickat]

Cross-faction instances were officially announced, and there's been some discussion about how that might affect the credibility of leaks that may or may not have mentioned it. Not much else though from what I can think.

Yeah, I saw that, and the boosting thing. I guess I meant more about next xpac specualation. Do you know which leaks mentioned the cross faction change?

[Jokubas]

Yeah, I saw that, and the boosting thing. I guess I meant more about next xpac specualation. Do you know which leaks mentioned the cross faction change?

If you follow this quote, that's when a particular one started being discussed again in this thread. There might have been others.

Wait. Does this mean this leak is true then? They got the cross faction part right and even excluded guilds.