1. #23821
    Brewmaster SunspotAnims's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Okay and what type of content would that be exactly? WoW players bitch about anything that's not just grinding mobs.

    Any of the solo-inspired non-raid content in the last five or so expansions was hated. Blizzard is obviously trying to find something. The thing is, people expect it to be an alternate gearing path, which it will never be, because there is no need for that.
    Variety is key here. I remember playing Mario Odyssey and thinking about how well the game leverages variety to its advantage, and how easily WoW could do the same thing. As in Mario even just a handful of straightforward mechanics can be rearranged, twisted, and subverted into something novel. Except unlike Mario Odyssey WoW isn't constrained by it's genre; as an MMO it can have elements of action, exploration, puzzle, strategy, even a fucking dating sim if it wanted to.

  2. #23822
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    And where this sub increase came from? Let's maybe talk about what is actually happening, not imaginary scenarios?
    And where is the sub increase?

  3. #23823
    Quote Originally Posted by SunspotAnims View Post
    Variety is key here. I remember playing Mario Odyssey and thinking about how well the game leverages variety to its advantage, and how easily WoW could do the same thing. As in Mario even just a handful of straightforward mechanics can be rearranged, twisted, and subverted into something novel. Except unlike Mario Odyssey WoW isn't constrained by it's genre; as an MMO it can have elements of action, exploration, puzzle, strategy, even a fucking dating sim if it wanted to.
    I mean, every single time WoW tried to do that, the games community bitched.

    Pet Battles? Total failure with only a small, small part of the community giving a shit.
    Torghast? Do I even have to mention that?
    Any type of platforming challenge? "Oh, I'll wait until flying because it's annoying!".
    People bitched about the puzzle WQs in Legion and BfA consistently.

    I am sure there's more that I can't think of.

    What you are saying is essentially meaningless, because the community doesn't know what they want.

  4. #23824
    Over 9000! Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And where is the sub increase?
    I meant sub cost increase.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  5. #23825
    Brewmaster SunspotAnims's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    I mean, every single time WoW tried to do that, the games community bitched.

    Pet Battles? Total failure with only a small, small part of the community giving a shit.
    Torghast? Do I even have to mention that?
    Any type of platforming challenge? "Oh, I'll wait until flying because it's annoying!".
    People bitched about the puzzle WQs in Legion and BfA consistently.

    I am sure there's more that I can't think of.

    What you are saying is essentially meaningless, because the community doesn't know what they want.
    I'd argue those grievances are rooted in issues with the way the game handles progression. People are being compelled to do things that they already don't want to do and are fixated on the parts that stick out. The original discussion was about how to make content "fun", and I still stand by variety being a key factor. Even with stuff like pet battles and Torghast already in-game, I don't think the game is nearly leveraging its capacity for variety as much as it could or should, in part because a lot of unique gameplay is being constantly deprecated with every patch and expansion.

    For the sake of taking progression into account, I wouldn't hate if the game tried to distill about half of all progression into a system of "power bucks" and "cosmetic bucks" that are rewarded universally across all forms of gameplay, and can be spent on specific prizes from respective vendors. In theory this means that you can always feel like you're progressing towards something you want while playing the game in a way that suits your playstyle.
    Last edited by SunspotAnims; 2022-02-13 at 10:58 AM.

  6. #23826
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    And that is one of the problems. Anyone beside the "send-turtles-to-the-water"-crowd does not play for cosmetics but to make their character stronger, to be able to face higher levels of their content. And nothing of that exists outside of premade group pvp, dungeons and raids. And no, noone outside of that small minroty of turtle pushers "enjoys" to play stupid.

    Torghast could have been an alternative progression path with items mattering to master anything higher than Torghast level 1. But blizzard was too blind and made it a "legendary farming ground" and "rogue like" (because they tried to copy Hades) with some special skills you lose after you left Torghast.. really.. WoW is no rogue like but an RPG where it is about making your character stronger persistently.. I mean.. who with a little bit of skill as a developer does not give the majority of his players any kind of notable character progression simply based on items?

    Who as a developer is blinded enough to implement borrowed power systems if item progression, where items are needed to play higher level content, is the main way in any other RPG or MMORPG to actually let people play a game?
    There's a hilarious lack of self-awareness in you bitching about how "wow is no rogue-like" in the same post where you're bitching about how an MMORPG won't put extensive focus on some system to let you raid gear without playing with other players.

    Also, despite you (ad nauseam) referring to casual players as the turtles group, and kicking and screaming about how they are a small minority, you are just objectively wrong, as is easily noted from a variety of statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by SunspotAnims View Post
    I'd argue those grievances are rooted in issues with the way the game handles progression. People are being compelled to do things that they already don't want to do and are fixated on the parts that stick out. The original discussion was about how to make content "fun", and I still stand by variety being a key factor. Even with stuff like pet battles and Torghast already in-game, I don't think the game is nearly leveraging its capacity for variety as much as it could or should, in part because a lot of unique gameplay is being constantly deprecated with every patch and expansion.

    For the sake of taking progression into account, I wouldn't hate if the game tried to distill about half of all progression into a system of "power bucks" and "cosmetic bucks" that are rewarded universally across all forms of gameplay, and can be spent on specific prizes from respective vendors. In theory this means that you can always feel like you're progressing towards something you want while playing the game in a way that suits your playstyle.
    Let me know how well you think that will go over after you realize that you've now created a system where anyone doing heroic+ raid progression is """forced""" to farm dungeons/pet battles/pvp/WQ/whatever solo system to amass the power bucks to supplement their raid progression gear.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2022-02-13 at 11:10 AM.

  7. #23827
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Torghast failed because a classic roguelike feature was just never gonna actually work out in wow.

    The game just doesn't support that style of play, and the feature requires just too much effort put in to be viable.
    Rogue-likes work because of their variety, the dozens of maps/floors, the hundreds of power ups they put in, the fast paced mobile gameplay that just doesn't work out with a lot of classes, this was doomed from the start as Blizzard just wouldn't dump that many resources and effort into it.

    Torghast should've been what the jailer's gauntlet is now.
    A continous bosh-rush mode works significantly better and is significantly more enjoyable than the floor runs.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  8. #23828
    Quote Originally Posted by LordKharon View Post
    Sure BFA&SL were economic successes, but mostly because of momentum and not because they were so good. A LOT of people have played WoW over its lifetime, a new expansion is always a good point to dip back in for quite a lot of those people (and the WoW model makes ist really easy with every expansion basically being a new game with a complete power reset and 1 free lvl boost).

    The question is if they are ok with this slow decline of overall WoW-MAUs year after year, and if they are is MS too? On top of that you have the rise of FF14 and the Riot MMO on the horizon, it will only get harder to attract players in the future. Loosened faction divide is the first real vision of the changing times at Blizz, old "Rockstar-Blizz" is basically completey gone (even more so after the scandals).

    I expect "retail-WoW" to change a lot more very soon, much more then in the past 8+ years. For nostalgia you have classic, and probably different servers for each expansion era down the road.
    Well, they are making more money of the warcraft franchise than ever before. Im not saying the game is more successfull than ever before with subs, but financially its doing very good. So where should the incentive come from in making wow much, much better? Last couple of years has shown that box sales, subs & shop features is mroe than enough to make big money on this game.

    I see no reason they are going to step it up and/or double down on making GREAT xpacs again. Mediocre is what people accept and enough people are willing to spend real money on useless shite items on MMORPG shops. For whatever reason. Its like the NFTs of MMORPGs.

    While FF14 gained traction for a while, its not a super-great xpac that defines the genre like wow once did. No MMORPG right now are like that. People are coping with AOC & the Riot MMO. Thats currently the biggest hopes.

  9. #23829
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    Compared to Legion BfA was generally not as good, but in some area betters. But it definitely wasn't a "flop". SL probably wouldn't receive as much hate if it managed to pull off a regular patch cycle and probably wouldn't be so system dependent each patch. But at least something we did get from SL is more listening to community feedback based on stuff not relating to just that patch/expansion but greater changes. which started with the "workshop" patch that was 9.1.5 when they first started adding community feedback changes on a larger scale.
    Not sure whether flop means financial failure by definition, english is not my native language, but I used this term to point out, that expansion wasn't successful in terms of gameplay. It certainly is a generalization on my side, but I belive that the sentiment around BfA was, and still is, rather negative. Legion has grown to high ranks due to failure of BfA and SL, but to be honest, it was actually really well-received still at it's launch.

    Content of BfA wasn't even close to be as engaging, let alone innovative, as Legion's was. Just think about the amount of features that players received - artifact weapons, legendaries, mage tower, Mythic+, world quests, new class, new patch-cycle system. I mean, it was a huge project to pull and they managed to do so.

    On the other hand BfA lacked innovations and was mainly a poor copycat of it's successful predecessor (apart from Warfronts, that even though ended up as a failure, credits to devs for trying).
    And then SL - already a symbol of detachment between devs' ambitions and players' needs. Torghast could definitely be a thing, but they still ignored the voices in beta and went their own way - once again to prove themselves being wrong. I do know they are trying to fix things, and hope it's a good indicator for future, but well...

  10. #23830
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Torghast failed because a classic roguelike feature was just never gonna actually work out in wow.

    The game just doesn't support that style of play, and the feature requires just too much effort put in to be viable.
    Rogue-likes work because of their variety, the dozens of maps/floors, the hundreds of power ups they put in, the fast paced mobile gameplay that just doesn't work out with a lot of classes, this was doomed from the start as Blizzard just wouldn't dump that many resources and effort into it.

    Torghast should've been what the jailer's gauntlet is now.
    A continous bosh-rush mode works significantly better and is significantly more enjoyable than the floor runs.
    Bosses are honestly the worst part of torghast and I hope that the dumb leaks about it being the new iteration are dead wrong.

    They should have made it a sprawling, ARPG-style labyrinth of generated rooms that get more difficult the farther you get from your starting hub, with teleporters regularly placed to allow you to step back to the hub and repair/vendor/use phatasma. Then they should have put a bunch of the Islands style recolor transmog items on normal mobs loot tables at low rates, with vendors in the hub room also having a random assortment of vendorable greys, useful items like food/pots/etc/, old transmog gear, pets, very rarely mounts, and absurdly rarely black market goods, refreshing every X or so floors and improving in rarity the farther out you get.

  11. #23831
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    And that is one of the problems. Anyone outside of the "send-turtles-to-the-water"-crowd does not play for cosmetics but increase their characters strength based on items, to be able to face higher levels of their content. And nothing of that exists outside of premade group pvp, dungeons and raids. And no, noone outside of that small minority of turtle pushers "enjoys" to play stupid.

    Torghast could have been an alternative progression path with items mattering to master anything higher than Torghast level 1. But blizzard was too blind and made it a "legendary farming ground" (and mandatory for everyone who would like to play dungeons, pvp or raids only) and "rogue like" (because they tried to copy Hades.. with "limited" success) with some special skills you lose after you left Torghast.. really.. WoW is no rogue like but an RPG where it is about progressing character based on items persistently.. I mean.. who with a little bit of skill as a developer does not give the majority of his players any kind of notable character progression simply based on items? Who is stuid enough as a developer to pervert a MMORPG or RPG that much that character progression for 80% of the players get removed?

    Who as a developer is blinded enough to implement borrowed power systems if item progression, where items are needed to play higher level content, is the main way in any other RPG or MMORPG to actually let people play a game?
    Torghast should have been a whole separate feature in SL. Something you did because you wanted to, not because you had to. They should never have put legendary currencies in there to begin with.

    It was never difficult to farm the soul ash for legendary, but it never felt legendary doing so either. It was just a tedious grind done because you had to. ONce it was done, it was done.

    Since it never was difficult to begin with, they should have just tied the legendary requirement to the campaign of SL. Its big enough to have it work there just fine.

  12. #23832
    I would argue that WoW will never truly be a truly varied game until it gives ample focus on the open world. Something that is about the same amount of improvement Legion did to previous expansions.

    Secondly what the game needs is to somehow change flying so it no longer impacts non-current content, which would allow old areas to be used to their full potential.
    Not necessarily remove flying, but make it so it can be an actual movement option that doenst completely overshadow all the other movement options. This would allow the game to have a more natural movement progression that isnt just the open world gameplay going from varied to extremely one-dimensional.

    Amd thirdly the game needs a bigger focus on varied challenges that do not directly interfere with gear progression, which tends to be what makes said system more shallow, as it needs to be accessible enough that everyone who needs gear can do it, and more importantly that noone should have a reason to complain about it. A good example being how Torghast giving Legendary gear meant it needed to be far more shallow and bite-sized to allow hardcore raiders to feel like they didnt waste time, where it really should have been an alternative system that only provided cosmetics, allowing it to cater itself to those wanting something different.


    It's unlikely the game will ever do all these things though, mostly because the audience, and for that matter the devs, don't know hwether the game should have a holistic approach or a segmented approach.
    The first option would make it a better game, but would require choosing a target audience and sticking to it. And the other would require making loads of separate minigames, instead of having a core gameplay loop that everything feeds into.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  13. #23833
    Scarab Lord TriHard's Avatar
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    Wow needs to do what FF14, GW2 and Lost Ark (probably even more than these three) do, add fun content to their game just for the heck of it.
    An MMO shouldn't just be about PVP and PVE, casual community based content goes a long way in increasing playtime for players, this is something that LA and FF14 do well and Lost Ark is even expanding upon it by adding Mario Party, MOBA, platformers and other type of fun content to their game.

    FF14 has a lot of it as well, I hope to see future mmos also doing what these two games have done.

  14. #23834

  15. #23835
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Rider View Post
    That is just the Maelstrom. Looks like someone has forgot to properly erase it's old location after copypasting it around the texture.

  16. #23836
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Torghast should have been a whole separate feature in SL. Something you did because you wanted to, not because you had to. They should never have put legendary currencies in there to begin with.

    It was never difficult to farm the soul ash for legendary, but it never felt legendary doing so either. It was just a tedious grind done because you had to. ONce it was done, it was done.

    Since it never was difficult to begin with, they should have just tied the legendary requirement to the campaign of SL. Its big enough to have it work there just fine.
    And then you have the problem of Pet Battles etc., where they make a feature that's DOA because the community is so rotten to the core in terms of power gaming where they don't even touch shit that doesn't give them an advantage.

    And yeah, of course Blizz is not gonna design a whole game mode essentially just to have no one play it.

  17. #23837
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    And then you have the problem of Pet Battles etc., where they make a feature that's DOA because the community is so rotten to the core in terms of power gaming where they don't even touch shit that doesn't give them an advantage.

    And yeah, of course Blizz is not gonna design a whole game mode essentially just to have no one play it.
    Yeah.. For a long time I didnt care about pet battles, but now I actually enjoy them from time to time. Luckily for me im moving forward slowly in that department, so I still have plenty to do.

    As you said, players in wow are obsessed with everything in the game has to have player power locked to it, if not its not worth doing.

    Will be interesting to see how 9.2 unfolds. The new zone has alot of content, but most of is not related to player power(except in the zone) and lots of lore, mounts, pets++ to collect.

  18. #23838
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I meant sub cost increase.
    game is bleeding out of players, money goes down, they have to keep shareholders pocked full. If three people leave isn't a problem cause one person can pay for 4.

    Unless you want to pull out this is because covid problem, cause that is a lame scapegoat.

  19. #23839
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    The game would get thanos snapped out of existence if they increased the sub price.

    That is not gonna happen.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  20. #23840
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    The game would get thanos snapped out of existence if they increased the sub price.

    That is not gonna happen.
    You underestimate the power of the paypigs.

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