Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Teriz]

Because each of the specs everyone lists already exists themeatically in other classes and specs. Adding them would just take away a lot from other classes.

Well that isn't true. Chromie from HotS for example utilizes Sand as a weapon in her attacks. AFIAK I'm not aware of any class utilizing san the way Chromie HotS does. Additionally, Alexstraza HotS utilizes fire and flames for healing. Once again, I'm not aware of any class utilizing fire for a healing spec. The only spec that is iffy would be the Earthwarden spec based on Deathwing HotS, because that would be reminiscent of the Druid's tank spec. However, even that spec is utilizing magma and flames, not something that Druids use. I'm not even sure Demon Hunters would use those concepts on that level.

They do not make sense mechanically in an MMO. Blizz would not add full on dragons as they would be too big (imagine fitting through a doorway as a dragon lmao) and no one wants to have their screens taken up because someone wanted to play a dragon… unless we make them fight in their disguised form OR made them all tiny whelps which would take away the point of playing a dragon.

Or you make them the size of mounts.

If they add a dragon-based race, it’s probably going to be Drakonids.
They’re humanoid and don’t have to be absolutely massive and blizz has been wanting to add them in since Vanilla and made concept art of them as a playable. They also nearly added them in cataclysm but didn’t because they wanted to work on their backstory as a race a bit more, which an expansion centered around dragons would be perfect for.

You're forgetting Blizzard's "rule of cool" when it comes to game additions. If you're Blizzard and you have the choice to let players be something akin to Wrathion, or a playable Drakonid, the choice would be something akin to Wrathion every time. Also a dragon class based on Wrathion gives you both a new race AND a new class.

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Honestly, no one asked my suggestion, but I'd say a Black Dragon class would suffice. We have reason to believe Wrathion is trying to revive the Black Dragonflight—there is room for three specs, too. I could see a Ranged, DPS and Tanking specialization pretty easily as a traditional magma-based, more brutish and powerful, and Earth-based specialization respectively.

There's also the Blue Dragonflight, who we know have long since broken up and are now mostly going on their own. We saw some basis for young Drake characters in Senegos' brood, and it would make more sense for them to be Drakes by now without a timeskip. However, I couldn't imagine them being very distinct—perhaps a melee Arcane (to differentiate from Arcane Mages) and a tanking Frost-based spec, but I can't see much in the way of diversity for those, nor a potential third spec.

I would say Black Dragons are the best option, since they already fulfill the most traditional Dragon archetype whilst still being somewhat distinct and interesting, and we also have concepts of what they could look like in combat with Wrathion's card art in Hearthstone. With strong, preexisting archetypes in both Neltharion pre-Cataclysm and Wrathion, the Black Dragonflight fulfills an interesting, specific, and unfulfilled niche. Although it slightly overlaps with Shaman, it does so far less than Blues would with Mages, Greens and Reds with Druids and Priests, etc. The only other Flight entirely divorced from a preexisting class would be the Bronze Dragonflight, and their time-travel spells may be more suited to a Timekeeper class than a Dragon-based class, and "time-traveling sand Dragon" is much less of a broad and appealing niche (though I personally love the thought of being a Bronze Dragon) than, say, fire-breathing manipulative Dragon.

Quite possible. I could definitely see a scenario where we are simply a black dragon being raised and trained by Wrathion and his agents. I still think it would be wise to make the class Tank/RDPS/Healing though.

[guro-tchai]

Also, anyone else just really dreading the idea that the Dragon Isles will be "5 zones, each based around one of the dragonflights"? I just really despise this idea and every leak that contains it turns me off. Dragonblight had the shrines and that was nice, one zone that had a place for each dragon, but that was the point of that one dragon related zone. Every single zone being like "this is the bronze zone, and this is the green zone," I don't like it. I just want zones/a world that feels like it organically came to be, not one that was obviously designed by a creator for gameplay and fanservice purposes =(

And by that I don't mean I don't like the idea of each dragonflight primarily having a focus in a specific zone, because naturally they would have their own places and group together. But an entire sandy desert for all the bronze dragons where the whole zone is focused on the story of the bronze flight is just so boring to me and we already have a zone like that in Tanaris. I'd rather have an updated Tanaris and then the Dragon Isles be something new and unexpected. Give me ruins of a place dragons originated from but don't have nearly as much presence in anymore with stuff I've never seen! What the hell else could they make for a green dragon zone that doesn't already exist in Val'sharah and Ardenweald anyway? I miss Northrend's size and story variety...

absolutely. we've already had an expansion with artificial and strictly thematized zones, and i didn't like it. the greek spirit healer zone, the scourge zone, the emerald dream but blue, transylvania and the turbo-hell.
i feel like it's a result of excessive creative freedom - they could do whatever they wanted to with the shadowlands, but also they had little pre-established material to work with.
the DI can be a bit different: they are (most likely) on Azeroth and thus will show us something more familiar. that also means that it's (again, probably) an actual piece of land, which is, personally, more immersive than an asspulled dimension.
btw the latest racist book mentioned a homeland for 'all dragons'. perhaps, that includes even storm/void/twilight/infinite, which makes the possibility of zones being focused on a single dragonflight lower.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Quite possible. I could definitely see a scenario where we are simply a black dragon being raised and trained by Wrathion and his agents. I still think it would be wise to make the class Tank/RDPS/Healing though.

I'd say that it also offers an easy in to both factions, even if factions are going to be less relevant now—Wrathion is (formerly) friends with Anduin and openly admits to a pro-Alliance bias, whereas the Highmountain Tauren have had a Black Dragon among them all this time. We also don't know what Sabellion is up to, so if he returned, he could lean one way or the other or even help serve as a general organizer alongside Wrathion—it would also be useful to have his brood simply be found by Wrathion, which would provide us with all kinds of Black Dragon characters that have been, until now, hidden in Outland and have since come out of hiding with Gruul's defeat.

[Nebron]

Good God. Wrathion is such a cool looking motherf*cker.
People. Love. Dragons. Dragon Isles would be such a perfect opportunity to reset all the bullshit they created for the last 5 years, it's insane. Get rid of these retarded borrowed-power systems. Bring the lore back to ground putting focus on local communities and their problems - people would much prefer extinguishing a burning barn than saving the universe from the existential cosmic threat for the tenth time. Set the scene for 2 expansion ahead by introducing new, black-and-white heroes that are clearly good or bad, rather than morally grey half-wits like Sylvanas. Make things optional, not mandatory. Turn the obvious time-gated content off. GG, risk-off success guaranteed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Ugh just ugh with this dragon talk.

[Catastrophy349]

Good God. Wrathion is such a cool looking motherf*cker.
People. Love. Dragons. Dragon Isles would be such a perfect opportunity to reset all the bullshit they created for the last 5 years, it's insane. Get rid of these retarded borrowed-power systems. Bring the lore back to ground putting focus on local communities and their problems - people would much prefer extinguishing a burning barn than saving the universe from the existential cosmic threat for the tenth time. Set the scene for 2 expansion ahead by introducing new, black-and-white heroes that are clearly good or bad, rather than morally grey half-wits like Sylvanas. Make things optional, not mandatory. Turn the obvious time-gated content off. GG, risk-off success guaranteed.

Regardless of what we want, 10.0 is well under way. If it's dragons, great. If not, maybe 11.0 or another future expansion. I'll take anything.

[Nightshade711]

Well that isn't true. Chromie from HotS for example utilizes Sand as a weapon in her attacks. AFIAK I'm not aware of any class utilizing san the way Chromie HotS does. Additionally, Alexstraza HotS utilizes fire and flames for healing. Once again, I'm not aware of any class utilizing fire for a healing spec. The only spec that is iffy would be the Earthwarden spec based on Deathwing HotS, because that would be reminiscent of the Druid's tank spec. However, even that spec is utilizing magma and flames, not something that Druids use. I'm not even sure Demon Hunters would use those concepts on that level.



Or you make them the size of mounts.



You're forgetting Blizzard's "rule of cool" when it comes to game additions. If you're Blizzard and you have the choice to let players be something akin to Wrathion, or a playable Drakonid, the choice would be something akin to Wrathion every time. Also a dragon class based on Wrathion gives you both a new race AND a new class.

Even when being the size of the mounts they’ll still be way too big. Can’t wait to miss mechanics because a player the size of a mount is in the way.
Would their hitbox be the size of the mount too? “Sorry raid lead I died because my dragon form is too big and couldn’t avoid Remornia’s massacre or Sylvanas’ attacks in last phase.”
And players could use the size as a way to troll and block important NPCs while indoors.

Because of this if I were blizzard I would add Drakonids (the race we’ve already been wanting since the game launched) over dragons.

If rule of cool was a thing in the way that you’re describing, blizzard would’ve allowed DHs to have visible wings/ a flight form and a permanent metamorphosis appearance, etc.

Drakonids both fit in with blizzard’s “rule of cool” and fit in mechanically.
MAYBE we could get a dragonsworn-esque class to get shipped with Drakonids… but still the fantasy for each dragonflight could easily be accomplished with existing classes. The only dragonflight not fully represented with current classes is bronze dragons, but they’re still represented at least with a few spells for mage.
Red dragons are resto druids with a fire skin on their spells.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Even when being the size of the mounts they’ll still be way too big. Can’t wait to miss mechanics because a player the size of a mount is in the way.
Would their hitbox be the size of the mount too? “Sorry raid lead I died because my dragon form is too big and couldn’t avoid Remornia’s massacre or Sylvanas’ attacks in last phase.”
And players could use the size as a way to troll and block important NPCs while indoors.

Admittedly, it would normally seem awkward for the big important Dragon to be sitting around using a sword in his human form, but I could see it making sense in the right context—what if, for instance, it were framed as your character being more a shifty, double-dealing fuckwad like Wrathion, which would give you more incentive to spend your time looking like a mortal?

Only in combat would your character actually get to enter Dragon form, and it would probably be not dissimilar to Void Form—an extremely powerful buff you get only after a while in combat, albeit perhaps even more scarce. For a time, you become about the size of a Drake Mount (assuming a Gnome rider, to make it just a little bigger and cooler) and gain access to extremely powerful attacks, including Magma breath. You could also assume a cosmetically-identical Dragon form when outdoors as a flight mount.

This would put you as hardly much taller than a normal player character heightwise—a metamorphosed Demon Hunter may even be bigger in terms of height. The size advantage is in terms of width and length, not height, and this will allow for a fairly decent degree of locomotion.

[Izalla]

The difference is that we have different types of dragons with different types of abilities. Bronze control time, Red are healers, Black are guardians and warriors, etc. This further leans to a class because it gives us specialization possibilities.

By contrast, there's really only one type of Worgen.



Why isn't it sound? The playable races would simply be your mortal "disguise", and Dragonborne mortal races would get things like horns or glowing eyes or scales, no different than what we see out of Demon Hunters;

[img]https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/629/278/large/sam-hogg-kalecgos-final-flattened.jpg?1443927680[img]

What's the problem?



Nope, according to my concept, you're a new type of Chromatic dragon that can change into different types of dragons. Easy peasy.



No, they wouldn't be "hairstyles" you change in the barbershop, the different flights would act as specializations just like any class, and you would be a chromatic dragon which can take on the appearance and abilities of different flights. In my latest concept, you could turn into (mimic) a Black, Red, or Bronze drake and utilize their abilities. Also it wouldn't be 5 specs, it would be the standard three.

Honestly, it isn't as complex as you're making it out to be.

So in other words... your race is a dragon. Not your class. You're not a human who learned an ability or was imbued with the magic of a dragon, you're just a dragon.

I'm not the one trying to make this more complicated than it has to be. You want a race to function as its own unique class. I don't agree with the concept. A dragon/humanoid race that can choose between the existing classes? Okay. A dragon-themed class that is blessed to channel the power of the aspects? Okay. But a race that functions as a class does not fit into how things work and I am personally not on board for something like that. Especially if it has to be explained by you being a hyper special limited edition chromatic drake who can call upon the powers of all the flights at will by innate ability. Feels very Mary Sue, one of the things people hated about Med'an.

I'm pretty sure neither of us is going to convince the other to change their mind though, so I'm just gonna drop out of this topic now.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

If rule of cool was a thing in the way that you’re describing, blizzard would’ve allowed DHs to have visible wings/ a flight form and a permanent metamorphosis appearance, etc.

That's not quite an adequate comparison. Who's to say that the Dragon form would be permanent, outside of perhaps a Flight Form?

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Especially if it has to be explained by you being a hyper special limited edition chromatic drake who can call upon the powers of all the flights at will by innate ability. Feels very Mary Sue, one of the things people hated about Med'an.

Agreed. I vastly prefer the Black Dragon idea, since it simply limits it to a fairly reasonable range of three potential specializations.

[Izalla]

Good God. Wrathion is such a cool looking motherf*cker.
People. Love. Dragons. Dragon Isles would be such a perfect opportunity to reset all the bullshit they created for the last 5 years, it's insane. Get rid of these retarded borrowed-power systems. Bring the lore back to ground putting focus on local communities and their problems - people would much prefer extinguishing a burning barn than saving the universe from the existential cosmic threat for the tenth time. Set the scene for 2 expansion ahead by introducing new, black-and-white heroes that are clearly good or bad, rather than morally grey half-wits like Sylvanas. Make things optional, not mandatory. Turn the obvious time-gated content off. GG, risk-off success guaranteed.

Let's pour our anima into our fight with Zovaal so that we can come home weaker than we we before to a planet that has been nearly killed then healed back to a point where so much has changed there just isn't time for people to give a crap about us anymore haha

[Nightshade711]

Admittedly, it would normally seem awkward for the big important Dragon to be sitting around using a sword in his human form, but I could see it making sense in the right context—what if, for instance, it were framed as your character being more a shifty, double-dealing fuckwad like Wrathion, which would give you more incentive to spend your time looking like a mortal?

Only in combat would your character actually get to enter Dragon form, and it would probably be not dissimilar to Void Form—an extremely powerful buff you get only after a while in combat, albeit perhaps even more scarce. For a time, you become about the size of a Drake Mount (assuming a Gnome rider, to make it just a little bigger and cooler) and gain access to extremely powerful attacks, including Magma breath. You could also assume a cosmetically-identical Dragon form when outdoors as a flight mount.

This would put you as hardly much taller than a normal player character heightwise—a metamorphosed Demon Hunter may even be bigger in terms of height. The size advantage is in terms of width and length, not height, and this will allow for a fairly decent degree of locomotion.

The issue too is that being the size of a drake takes up more area via length & width and the issue of the hitbox still comes into play.

If it’s dragon sized then it causes issues with boss fights on smaller platforms like smaller mechanics & grouped together mechanics like Remornia or smaller platforms like Sylvanas. Not to mention M+ mechanics. Blizz wouldn’t want to design whole encounters around a single class/spec.

If the hitbox is still humanoid sized then you run into the issue of PvP and placable AOE/CC which most classes have.
I can already see frustration from the PVP group getting frustrated that they can’t accurately tell how big a dragon’s hit box so it’s much harder to CC which is very important when someone pops their main CDs. (Hunter traps, shaman stun totem, & Veng DH sigils are a few examples)

That's not quite an adequate comparison. Who's to say that the Dragon form would be permanent, outside of perhaps a Flight Form?

Then it wouldn’t be a fully fledged dragon class like what was being discussed.

Something along the lines of a dragonsworn maybe.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The issue too is that being the size of a drake takes up more area via length & width and the issue of the hitbox still comes into play.

If it’s dragon sized then it causes issues with boss fights on smaller platforms like smaller mechanics & grouped together mechanics like Remornia or smaller platforms like Sylvanas. Not to mention M+ mechanics. Blizz wouldn’t want to design whole encounters around a single class/spec.

If the hitbox is still humanoid sized then you run into the issue of PvP and placable AOE/CC which most classes have.
I can already see frustration from the PVP group getting frustrated that they can’t accurately tell how big a dragon’s hit box so it’s much harder to CC which is very important when someone pops their main CDs. (Hunter traps, shaman stun totem, & Veng DH sigils are a few examples)

If they only rarely entered Drake form, wouldn't the hitbox potentially be a small drawback to the excessive power boost they get?

[Izalla]

Anyway, I like zones grounded that feel like actual places that people live in (or avoid because danger) rather than zones that feel designed to serve a narrative or thematic purpose, and for the majority of conflicts to be smaller scale things. A big deal for mortals and their homes and lives and the world around them, but not a big deal in the grand scheme of the universe or even most of the planet at large. And then throw in the occasional holy shit moment so those moments are meaningful, where once in a while you get the chaos of the Legion Invasion or the war in Northrend against the scourge. But even the original scourge wasn't a big world ending event at the time, it was a local threat sweeping across a nation with no clear cause or motive. It seemed more personal and grounded. Finding out as you went further along that it was mastermined by the Legion so they could attack Azeroth was the most boring part of that story. The human (struggling and failing) part of that story was the good stuff.

[Nightshade711]

If they only rarely entered Drake form, wouldn't the hitbox potentially be a small drawback to the excessive power boost they get?

It’d be a bit too much of a drawback.
Especially in PvP, as if it were so big it’d be so easy to CC that any halfway competent PVPer would be able to do it… thus making the drake form useless in PvP

Unless the drake form wouldn’t be an excessive power boost you’re talking about

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It’d be a bit too much of a drawback.
Especially in PvP, as if it were so big it’d be so easy to CC that any halfway competent PVPer would be able to do it… thus making the drake form useless in PvP

Unless the drake form wouldn’t be an excessive power boost you’re talking about

Is CC really sufficient enough in the damage that it deals to be a serious drawback? Isn't the precise goal for dealing with groups of things or controlling the environment moreso than actually dealing excessive damage?

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Then it wouldn’t be a fully fledged dragon class like what was being discussed.

Something along the lines of a dragonsworn maybe.

See previous comment about being a Wrathion-esque manipulator or schemer.

[Nightshade711]

Is CC really sufficient enough in the damage that it deals to be a serious drawback? Isn't the precise goal for dealing with groups of things or controlling the environment moreso than actually dealing excessive damage?

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See previous comment about being a Wrathion-esque manipulator or schemer.

Yes. Never getting able to do anything in your dragon form in PvP because you’re easily hit by ice traps/capacitor totems/the spriest void form stun (which also deals a lot of damage), etc is a very major drawback.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Yes. Never getting able to do anything in your dragon form in PvP because you’re easily hit by ice traps/capacitor totems/the spriest void form stun (which also deals a lot of damage), etc is a very major drawback.

Aren't stuns in PvP already vastly important and very much brief, as well? Even if that is an issue, wouldn't a PvP talent that serves as an extra stun resist or breakout be useful enough to curtail that?

[Nightshade711]

Aren't stuns in PvP already vastly important and very much brief, as well? Even if that is an issue, wouldn't a PvP talent that serves as an extra stun resist or breakout be useful enough to curtail that?

Any CD with a significant power increase is generally quite short and is easily negated with a stun. Such as shaman ascendance.
Having an extra stun resist/breakout atop the trinkets would be a bit OP, as seen with ret Paladins in Legion that practically couldn’t be CCed.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Any CD with a significant power increase is generally quite short and is easily negated with a stun. Such as shaman ascendance.
Having an extra stun resist/breakout atop the trinkets would be a bit OP, as seen with ret Paladins in Legion that practically couldn’t be CCed.

Assuming it only activated in the Dragon form, wouldn't "a bit OP" be entirely sufficient for our purposes?

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Good God. Wrathion is such a cool looking motherf*cker.
People. Love. Dragons. Dragon Isles would be such a perfect opportunity to reset all the bullshit they created for the last 5 years, it's insane. Get rid of these retarded borrowed-power systems. Bring the lore back to ground putting focus on local communities and their problems - people would much prefer extinguishing a burning barn than saving the universe from the existential cosmic threat for the tenth time. Set the scene for 2 expansion ahead by introducing new, black-and-white heroes that are clearly good or bad, rather than morally grey half-wits like Sylvanas. Make things optional, not mandatory. Turn the obvious time-gated content off. GG, risk-off success guaranteed.

It would also be nice simply to finally get to be the scheming douchebag who calls people "impetuous mortals!" for a change. I would love to get a legitimate avenue into roleplaying as a Dragon without all the inherent Suedom and dangling questions that damage suspension of disbelief that usually has.