Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[micwini]

I mean, atleast the players and whatever NPCs come with us (Anduin, Bolvar, Sylvanas, Jaina and Uther, I imagine) will certainly realize it because Azerite is literally part of the fight.

Jailer bossfight music is even a mix of domination music + azerite music

[Vakir]

What secret Sepulcher bosses?

Also, transposing Sylvanas' personality onto Anduin requires that either of them have stable personalities - or in the latter's case, any personality at all.

That being said, yeah. He's gonna be a mopey case for half a patch before we get another unnecessary in-game cutscene of restoring him back to bland Jesus status. Hopefully he's put on ice through 10.0 to begin with.

[TaliaKirana]

You know, Anduin's got a right to feel awful for having been used as a pawn of evil. He didn't choose it, but what he saw while the Jailer was pulling his strings is going to haunt him. It wasn't his fault, but rarely is guilt logical.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You know, Anduin's got a right to feel awful for having been used as a pawn of evil. He didn't choose it, but what he saw while the Jailer was pulling his strings is going to haunt him. It wasn't his fault, but rarely is guilt logical.

Sure but preferably he doesn't change his personality completely.

[Vakir]

Yeah, but rarely is irrational guilt an interesting narrative hook for a very long time.

It's interesting in reality where people need to struggle with it and the emotions we can actually connect with are viscerally felt because they actually exist. Survivor's guilt or irrational guilt is also usually connected to something actually adjacent to possibility (e.g. "I convinced my parent to visit me over the holidays and their plane crashed, ergo, my fault." "I hired some workers and they left the back door open while my kid was asleep and he got up, wandered out, and drowned in the canal, ergo, my fault.")

In a fantasy setting where almost anything is possible and actual-magic influences your decisions, it has a brief shelf-life. We don't want him to be a mopey cunt on top of being a narrative black hole.

[micwini]

What secret Sepulcher bosses?

Also, transposing Sylvanas' personality onto Anduin requires that either of them have stable personalities - or in the latter's case, any personality at all.

That being said, yeah. He's gonna be a mopey case for half a patch before we get another unnecessary in-game cutscene of restoring him back to bland Jesus status. Hopefully he's put on ice through 10.0 to begin with.

He probably meant "secret" in the sense that they haven't been tested at all or even seen on PTR.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, but rarely is irrational guilt an interesting narrative hook for a very long time.

It's interesting in reality where people need to struggle with it and the emotions we can actually connect with are viscerally felt because they actually exist. Survivor's guilt or irrational guilt is also usually connected to something actually adjacent to possibility (e.g. "I convinced my parent to visit me over the holidays and their plane crashed, ergo, my fault." "I hired some workers and they left the back door open while my kid was asleep and he got up, wandered out, and drowned in the canal, ergo, my fault.")

In a fantasy setting where almost anything is possible and actual-magic influences your decisions, it has a brief shelf-life. We don't want him to be a mopey cunt on top of being a narrative black hole.

Guilt is unnecessary, he didn't do anything wrong. But trauma is badly needed to kick Our Treasure down a peg even if we both know he'll be back to normal by 10.1 at absolute latest. It's not irrational trauma either. It's at best sleep paralysis/locked-in syndrome tier loss of bodily control under Satan's influence combined with your few waking moments being listening to Sylvanas monologue at you to cope with her terrible life choices. Anyone'd be wrecked by it for a time. He doesn't need to feel guilty to be unable to resume his duty. Mind, he still will because having all his bones broken only gave him super powers. I would be very pleasantly surprised if this was any different but I really doubt it.

[Vakir]

Guilt is unnecessary, he didn't do anything wrong. But trauma is badly needed to kick Our Treasure down a peg even if we both know he'll be back to normal by 10.1 at absolute latest. It's not irrational trauma either. It's at best sleep paralysis/locked-in syndrome tier loss of bodily control under Satan's influence combined with your few waking moments being listening to Sylvanas monologue at you to cope with her terrible life choices. Anyone'd be wrecked by it for a time. He doesn't need to feel guilty to be unable to resume his duty. Mind, he still will because having all his bones broken only gave him super powers. I would be very pleasantly surprised if this was any different but I really doubt it.

Fair, albeit I don't trust the team to write trauma even fractionally well. That one fake leak about him spontaneously pulling a blade on someone? Kind of hilarious, though. Might be down for that.

[Sondrelk]

The problem I see with Anduin feeling guilt over his actions as the Jailers pawn is that this has been the central theme of his character ever since Legion offed Varian.

He felt guilt over nit being there for his father. He felt guilt over nit being a better king, and helping his citizens feel safe. He felt guilt over not giving the Forsaken enough of a chance, guilt over letting Forsaken be killed, and guilt over trusting Sylvanas. He felt guilt over nit saving more Nelves. He felt guilt over going into war and sending Aliiance soldiers to their death. He felt guilt over engaging in regular warfare, guilt over being sneaky, and guilt over not being decisive enough.

The Anduin we saw in SL before he got turned was one of the few post-Legion iterations where he expressed an emotion beside guilt or relief from guilt.

The core of Anduins character done well is one where he is torn between his duties as king, and his beliefs as a priest. The issue there is that Velen has already staked a firm claim over the same basic outline, and the story does nothing to really set Anduin apart beyond just making him angsty.

The writers need to give him something. A clearly defined moment where he actually becomes a king, and not just endless circling around the same angst constantly.


Though then again, I guess he did improve by leaps and bounds in SL compared to his absolutely atrocious showing in BfA, so I guess it might be hasty to expect garbage straight away when it comes to future stories with him.

[Super Dickmann]

Fair, albeit I don't trust the team to write trauma even fractionally well. That one fake leak about him spontaneously pulling a blade on someone? Kind of hilarious, though. Might be down for that.

The voice-acting we have of him in 9.2 afterwards are very well delivered by Keaton, though that might be me being extra appreciative because that entire Chapter is the plot briefly gaining self-awareness. What with the Bland Gang asking Anduin, a possession victim, how to avoid being possessed and him telling he doesn't know for obvious reasons, leading to them doing what they should've done at the start and asking the Primus.

[Nyel]

Destruction of the Wyrmrest temple makes the Dragon Isle appear as they’ve been hidden in a pocket dimension that was only accessed via the portals in Wyrmrest. But now that the temple is destroyed the nexus hub for the DI is as well and they just appear on Azeroth.

[Ersula]

Exactly. A broody Anduin would be understandable, but also extremely tedious from an Audience perspective.

Plus it shows the weakness of Zovaal as a villain: He really hasn't done anything big since taking control of Anduin. I felt excited for the brief moment I thought the Archon was actually dead....but no she's fine. Zovaal trashes some robots in 9.2. Anduin fights Thrall & Jaina, maybe if he had actually injured Jaina or Thrall? That might warrant a major character change? But no. I hope he goes right back to normal.

[Vakir]

The voice-acting we have of him in 9.2 afterwards are very well delivered by Keaton, though that might be me being extra appreciative because that entire Chapter is the plot briefly gaining self-awareness. What with the Bland Gang asking Anduin, a possession victim, how to avoid being possessed and him telling he doesn't know for obvious reasons, leading to them doing what they should've done at the start and asking the Primus.

Keaton is unironically superb. Dude's so fucking good. I've been a fan since Young Ocelot and he's nailed pretty much everything he's in. The hope is they give him a character worthy of the performer. (See also: Patty Mattson)

[Ersula]

Destruction of the Wyrmrest temple makes the Dragon Isle appear as they’ve been hidden in a pocket dimension that was only accessed via the portals in Wyrmrest. But now that the temple is destroyed the nexus hub for the DI is as well and they just appear on Azeroth.

A major problem with letting your audience stew with these cliffhangers for an extended amount of time: The fans start designing more interesting developments than what we end up getting & everyone ends up disappointed.

[Sondrelk]

Guilt is unnecessary, he didn't do anything wrong. But trauma is badly needed to kick Our Treasure down a peg even if we both know he'll be back to normal by 10.1 at absolute latest. It's not irrational trauma either. It's at best sleep paralysis/locked-in syndrome tier loss of bodily control under Satan's influence combined with your few waking moments being listening to Sylvanas monologue at you to cope with her terrible life choices. Anyone'd be wrecked by it for a time. He doesn't need to feel guilty to be unable to resume his duty. Mind, he still will because having all his bones broken only gave him super powers. I would be very pleasantly surprised if this was any different but I really doubt it.

Hopefully we see more of Snarkduin. His dead-faced exasperation with Sylvanas' continued claims of benevolence was a nice reprieve from BfA Anduin.

Regardless I think it's best if Anduin is not really present in 10.0. playing up the guilt angle is incredibly overdone with him, and making him angsty would be awful for what little credibility he still has as an interesting character.

Have him stay in Stormwind not doing much relevant to us if we are going to the Dragon Isles, or just somewhere recuperating if we are doing a story that requires the king or regent of Stormwind to be present.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Hopefully we see more of Snarkduin. His dead-faced exasperation with Sylvanas' continued claims of benevolence was a nice reprieve from BfA Anduin.

Regardless I think it's best if Anduin is not really present in 10.0. playing up the guilt angle is incredibly overdone with him, and making him angsty would be awful for what little credibility he still has as an interesting character.

Have him stay in Stormwind not doing much relevant to us if we are going to the Dragon Isles, or just somewhere recuperating if we are doing a story that requires the king or regent of Stormwind to be present.

How about no to both of that. Sounds like you just wnat more edgy anduin so....no thanks. SL just makes him in Death Knight mode(Or arthas mode for a more....hillarious way to say it). So he's not doing too much.

[Vakir]

Hopefully we see more of Snarkduin. His dead-faced exasperation with Sylvanas' continued claims of benevolence was a nice reprieve from BfA Anduin.

For real. And then naturally we went from "I'm so tired of your bullshit" to "Let me indulge your bullshit for 3 cutscenes."

I still love how the entire story was predicated on, and pointed out by Anduin as, Sylvanas trusting the spikey chainy skull guy. "Look around you" indeed.

How about no to both of that. Sounds like you just wnat more edgy anduin so....no thanks. SL just makes him in Death Knight mode(Or arthas mode for a more....hillarious way to say it). So he's not doing too much.

The use of sarcasm and/or exasperation is not edgy. We're talking about how he spoke to Sylvanas prior to his turning.

It makes sense for a 19 year old in chains to be really fucking done with the lady that's been droning on with vagueries for years. It's the rare case he echoed a good chunk of the fandom.

Anduin has tons of personality. Not wanting to continue stupid dumb baby wars isnt a lack of a personality.

He's like one of five actually three dimensional characters in the lore.

Oh, I don't want to see any bullshit factional nonsense, either.

The issue stands more that because he's an unchallenged moral paragon, it kinda railroads the characters around him. He can keep the moral compass he has presently and still present it differently and have more significant internal dissent.

[Super Dickmann]

Hopefully we see more of Snarkduin. His dead-faced exasperation with Sylvanas' continued claims of benevolence was a nice reprieve from BfA Anduin.

Regardless I think it's best if Anduin is not really present in 10.0. playing up the guilt angle is incredibly overdone with him, and making him angsty would be awful for what little credibility he still has as an interesting character.

Have him stay in Stormwind not doing much relevant to us if we are going to the Dragon Isles, or just somewhere recuperating if we are doing a story that requires the king or regent of Stormwind to be present.

Anduin's guilt is such a poor plot point because the writing makes repeatedly, painfully clear time after time, scene after scene, that he is God's gift to the world and is capable of everything and is right in every instance. BTS, BFA and SL's main character drama hinges on this. There is no doubt on the narrative's part of his capacity, at best he doubts himself. In this case, what should be done, but won't, is that he's genuinely unable to perform because of what he went through. Not because he's guilty over stabbing people he never heard of, being forced to listen to Sylvanas or being the Devil's mouthpiece, but because anyone who went through this ordeal would be a wreck. Especially someone like Anduin who's weakness, as far as Golden is concerned, has always been that he's brittle and can't deal with his responsibilities when the tire hits the road. The alternate version of Anduin from War Crimes isn't an evil despot or a zealot but a weak man unable to make decisions and fleeing from responsibility.

The ideal version of this is to have him be sidelined for the course of the action while Stormwind and the Alliance are represented by people actually capable of any conflict to speak of. Turalyon as Regent for instance. Anyone who's been in both BFA and SL deserves a vacation to Belize so we're free of those terminal fucking bores for at least one expansion. Ironically for how much of a cancer he's been, Anduin is the only one of the Bland Gang I actually think has a story as a result.

@Vakir

The plot briefly gaining self-awareness yet again was much appreciated. I maintain that a scene that was actually good in a really stupid way is the one at the end of 9.1 where Anduin, by this point a slave, has to listen to Sylvanas blab to him about her plan as though he were an equal partner to deal with how monstrusly retarded her decision-making has been and even in this state he basically tells her she's a moron.

[Varodoc]

What with the Bland Gang asking Anduin, a possession victim, how to avoid being possessed and him telling he doesn't know for obvious reasons, leading to them doing what they should've done at the start and asking the Primus.

This is what happens?

Are they retarded (Jaina, Thrall, Sylvanas, Bolvar, I assume this is the "Bland Gang" )

So are they stupid?

[Vakir]

Of course they're stupid. Everyone around Varian and Garrosh in Wrath, and Sylvanas and Anduin in the last 2-3 expansions, has to drop multiple IQ points to let the story happen.