Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

The problem I see with Anduin feeling guilt over his actions as the Jailers pawn is that this has been the central theme of his character ever since Legion offed Varian.

He felt guilt over nit being there for his father. He felt guilt over nit being a better king, and helping his citizens feel safe. He felt guilt over not giving the Forsaken enough of a chance, guilt over letting Forsaken be killed, and guilt over trusting Sylvanas. He felt guilt over nit saving more Nelves. He felt guilt over going into war and sending Aliiance soldiers to their death. He felt guilt over engaging in regular warfare, guilt over being sneaky, and guilt over not being decisive enough.

The Anduin we saw in SL before he got turned was one of the few post-Legion iterations where he expressed an emotion beside guilt or relief from guilt.

The core of Anduins character done well is one where he is torn between his duties as king, and his beliefs as a priest. The issue there is that Velen has already staked a firm claim over the same basic outline, and the story does nothing to really set Anduin apart beyond just making him angsty.

The writers need to give him something. A clearly defined moment where he actually becomes a king, and not just endless circling around the same angst constantly.


Though then again, I guess he did improve by leaps and bounds in SL compared to his absolutely atrocious showing in BfA, so I guess it might be hasty to expect garbage straight away when it comes to future stories with him.

[Super Dickmann]

Fair, albeit I don't trust the team to write trauma even fractionally well. That one fake leak about him spontaneously pulling a blade on someone? Kind of hilarious, though. Might be down for that.

The voice-acting we have of him in 9.2 afterwards are very well delivered by Keaton, though that might be me being extra appreciative because that entire Chapter is the plot briefly gaining self-awareness. What with the Bland Gang asking Anduin, a possession victim, how to avoid being possessed and him telling he doesn't know for obvious reasons, leading to them doing what they should've done at the start and asking the Primus.

[Nyel]

Destruction of the Wyrmrest temple makes the Dragon Isle appear as they’ve been hidden in a pocket dimension that was only accessed via the portals in Wyrmrest. But now that the temple is destroyed the nexus hub for the DI is as well and they just appear on Azeroth.

[Ersula]

Exactly. A broody Anduin would be understandable, but also extremely tedious from an Audience perspective.

Plus it shows the weakness of Zovaal as a villain: He really hasn't done anything big since taking control of Anduin. I felt excited for the brief moment I thought the Archon was actually dead....but no she's fine. Zovaal trashes some robots in 9.2. Anduin fights Thrall & Jaina, maybe if he had actually injured Jaina or Thrall? That might warrant a major character change? But no. I hope he goes right back to normal.

[Vakir]

The voice-acting we have of him in 9.2 afterwards are very well delivered by Keaton, though that might be me being extra appreciative because that entire Chapter is the plot briefly gaining self-awareness. What with the Bland Gang asking Anduin, a possession victim, how to avoid being possessed and him telling he doesn't know for obvious reasons, leading to them doing what they should've done at the start and asking the Primus.

Keaton is unironically superb. Dude's so fucking good. I've been a fan since Young Ocelot and he's nailed pretty much everything he's in. The hope is they give him a character worthy of the performer. (See also: Patty Mattson)

[Ersula]

Destruction of the Wyrmrest temple makes the Dragon Isle appear as they’ve been hidden in a pocket dimension that was only accessed via the portals in Wyrmrest. But now that the temple is destroyed the nexus hub for the DI is as well and they just appear on Azeroth.

A major problem with letting your audience stew with these cliffhangers for an extended amount of time: The fans start designing more interesting developments than what we end up getting & everyone ends up disappointed.

[Sondrelk]

Guilt is unnecessary, he didn't do anything wrong. But trauma is badly needed to kick Our Treasure down a peg even if we both know he'll be back to normal by 10.1 at absolute latest. It's not irrational trauma either. It's at best sleep paralysis/locked-in syndrome tier loss of bodily control under Satan's influence combined with your few waking moments being listening to Sylvanas monologue at you to cope with her terrible life choices. Anyone'd be wrecked by it for a time. He doesn't need to feel guilty to be unable to resume his duty. Mind, he still will because having all his bones broken only gave him super powers. I would be very pleasantly surprised if this was any different but I really doubt it.

Hopefully we see more of Snarkduin. His dead-faced exasperation with Sylvanas' continued claims of benevolence was a nice reprieve from BfA Anduin.

Regardless I think it's best if Anduin is not really present in 10.0. playing up the guilt angle is incredibly overdone with him, and making him angsty would be awful for what little credibility he still has as an interesting character.

Have him stay in Stormwind not doing much relevant to us if we are going to the Dragon Isles, or just somewhere recuperating if we are doing a story that requires the king or regent of Stormwind to be present.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Hopefully we see more of Snarkduin. His dead-faced exasperation with Sylvanas' continued claims of benevolence was a nice reprieve from BfA Anduin.

Regardless I think it's best if Anduin is not really present in 10.0. playing up the guilt angle is incredibly overdone with him, and making him angsty would be awful for what little credibility he still has as an interesting character.

Have him stay in Stormwind not doing much relevant to us if we are going to the Dragon Isles, or just somewhere recuperating if we are doing a story that requires the king or regent of Stormwind to be present.

How about no to both of that. Sounds like you just wnat more edgy anduin so....no thanks. SL just makes him in Death Knight mode(Or arthas mode for a more....hillarious way to say it). So he's not doing too much.

[Vakir]

Hopefully we see more of Snarkduin. His dead-faced exasperation with Sylvanas' continued claims of benevolence was a nice reprieve from BfA Anduin.

For real. And then naturally we went from "I'm so tired of your bullshit" to "Let me indulge your bullshit for 3 cutscenes."

I still love how the entire story was predicated on, and pointed out by Anduin as, Sylvanas trusting the spikey chainy skull guy. "Look around you" indeed.

How about no to both of that. Sounds like you just wnat more edgy anduin so....no thanks. SL just makes him in Death Knight mode(Or arthas mode for a more....hillarious way to say it). So he's not doing too much.

The use of sarcasm and/or exasperation is not edgy. We're talking about how he spoke to Sylvanas prior to his turning.

It makes sense for a 19 year old in chains to be really fucking done with the lady that's been droning on with vagueries for years. It's the rare case he echoed a good chunk of the fandom.

Anduin has tons of personality. Not wanting to continue stupid dumb baby wars isnt a lack of a personality.

He's like one of five actually three dimensional characters in the lore.

Oh, I don't want to see any bullshit factional nonsense, either.

The issue stands more that because he's an unchallenged moral paragon, it kinda railroads the characters around him. He can keep the moral compass he has presently and still present it differently and have more significant internal dissent.

[Super Dickmann]

Hopefully we see more of Snarkduin. His dead-faced exasperation with Sylvanas' continued claims of benevolence was a nice reprieve from BfA Anduin.

Regardless I think it's best if Anduin is not really present in 10.0. playing up the guilt angle is incredibly overdone with him, and making him angsty would be awful for what little credibility he still has as an interesting character.

Have him stay in Stormwind not doing much relevant to us if we are going to the Dragon Isles, or just somewhere recuperating if we are doing a story that requires the king or regent of Stormwind to be present.

Anduin's guilt is such a poor plot point because the writing makes repeatedly, painfully clear time after time, scene after scene, that he is God's gift to the world and is capable of everything and is right in every instance. BTS, BFA and SL's main character drama hinges on this. There is no doubt on the narrative's part of his capacity, at best he doubts himself. In this case, what should be done, but won't, is that he's genuinely unable to perform because of what he went through. Not because he's guilty over stabbing people he never heard of, being forced to listen to Sylvanas or being the Devil's mouthpiece, but because anyone who went through this ordeal would be a wreck. Especially someone like Anduin who's weakness, as far as Golden is concerned, has always been that he's brittle and can't deal with his responsibilities when the tire hits the road. The alternate version of Anduin from War Crimes isn't an evil despot or a zealot but a weak man unable to make decisions and fleeing from responsibility.

The ideal version of this is to have him be sidelined for the course of the action while Stormwind and the Alliance are represented by people actually capable of any conflict to speak of. Turalyon as Regent for instance. Anyone who's been in both BFA and SL deserves a vacation to Belize so we're free of those terminal fucking bores for at least one expansion. Ironically for how much of a cancer he's been, Anduin is the only one of the Bland Gang I actually think has a story as a result.

@Vakir

The plot briefly gaining self-awareness yet again was much appreciated. I maintain that a scene that was actually good in a really stupid way is the one at the end of 9.1 where Anduin, by this point a slave, has to listen to Sylvanas blab to him about her plan as though he were an equal partner to deal with how monstrusly retarded her decision-making has been and even in this state he basically tells her she's a moron.

[Varodoc]

What with the Bland Gang asking Anduin, a possession victim, how to avoid being possessed and him telling he doesn't know for obvious reasons, leading to them doing what they should've done at the start and asking the Primus.

This is what happens?

Are they retarded (Jaina, Thrall, Sylvanas, Bolvar, I assume this is the "Bland Gang" )

So are they stupid?

[Vakir]

Of course they're stupid. Everyone around Varian and Garrosh in Wrath, and Sylvanas and Anduin in the last 2-3 expansions, has to drop multiple IQ points to let the story happen.

[Arcinatoss]

I thought it was canon now that most big name characters and the champion is suffering from severe retardation, given that we brought the last secret sigil to the jailers basement and all.

[Super Dickmann]

This is what happens?

Are they retarded (Jaina, Thrall, Sylvanas, Bolvar, I assume this is the "Bland Gang" )

So are they stupid?

Yes, they go this entire time talking archly and without contractions of course, about how Anduin will tell them how to resist being dominated without ever once asking the Primus, who invented domination magic and is on the phone at all times. You expect this to work out fine and it's just the plot being retarded as ever, but instead, he doesn't know shit, exactly as a rational person would expect and they go to the Primus to ask him to tell them, which of course he does, since it's his whole field:

Uther: Tell the others what you told me.
Sylvanas: You all have witnessed the Jailer's power firsthand. Without the means to resist his domination, we have no chance against him.

Bolvar: Anduin, can you tell us anything about the Domination that the Jailer put in our way?
Anduin: No, I don't know how to counteract it... I... I'm sorry.

Their retardation is a canonically acknowledged plot point.

[Vakir]

In that context, I can KINDA buy it as "While you were locked up, you see any actual object used or some kind incantation that led to him Dominating you? Did he say anything sensitive about it?" moreso than "Do you have the secret cure, Good Wonderful Sir?"

Still a goofy line.

[Sondrelk]

Anduin's guilt is such a poor plot point because the writing makes repeatedly, painfully clear time after time, scene after scene, that he is God's gift to the world and is capable of everything and is right in every instance. BTS, BFA and SL's main character drama hinges on this. There is no doubt on the narrative's part of his capacity, at best he doubts himself. In this case, what should be done, but won't, is that he's genuinely unable to perform because of what he went through. Not because he's guilty over stabbing people he never heard of, being forced to listen to Sylvanas or being the Devil's mouthpiece, but because anyone who went through this ordeal would be a wreck. Especially someone like Anduin who's weakness, as far as Golden is concerned, has always been that he's brittle and can't deal with his responsibilities when the tire hits the road. The alternate version of Anduin from War Crimes isn't an evil despot or a zealot but a weak man unable to make decisions and fleeing from responsibility.

The ideal version of this is to have him be sidelined for the course of the action while Stormwind and the Alliance are represented by people actually capable of any conflict to speak of. Turalyon as Regent for instance. Anyone who's been in both BFA and SL deserves a vacation to Belize so we're free of those terminal fucking bores for at least one expansion. Ironically for how much of a cancer he's been, Anduin is the only one of the Bland Gang I actually think has a story as a result.

BTS/BfA Anduin was horrible because the plot was clearly at odds with his portrayal. Like when he is constantly shown as wrong, and despite this the story claims he isn't.
The most aggravating when he refuses to push the advantage against the Horde because the Zandalari are a bit sad. Sidestepping both how pushing the advantage is better for both sides, and how attacking Orgrimmar means nothing to the Zandalari in that regard.

SL Anduin is more interesting because his unmoving devotion to the right cause is a great foil to Sylvanas' claims to be this morally complex antihero when her actions clearly are those of a horrible despot. This juxtaposition creating a great dynamic that highlights most of Anduins good traits, while also creating some unintentional/intentional comedy in the best way.

Anduin works best when he is allowed to be an optimist in a bleak world. His big moment in the BfA trailer for instance.
The problem the writing tends to stumble into with him is less that he doesn't face any obstacles. In BfA proper especially he comes across like a bit of a Mary Sue in how his supposed failings never end in tangible problems for him. He is never called upon to make a choice between his morals and his duty in a way that presents a tangible risk to him. He just keeps doing what he thinks is right and the game keeps moving obstacles away to prevent him from facing any repercussions.

[Varodoc]

What we see with Sylvanas Windrunner is the classic situation that happens to any redeemed villain. Since they are no longer "villains" for the sake of the Story, they lose their Villain Plot Armour, which made them 4000 IQ master minds who are ahead of everyone. Remember how Sylvanas was ahead of everyone in BfA (like how she manipulated the entire Alliance at Lordaeron, because they were the Lawful Stupid good guys and she was the villain)? This is NEVER happening again and we see this in the latest patch, where Sylvanas is acting like a retard alongside Jaina, Thrall, and Bolvar, who are certified Good Guys.

A classic, it always happens, you either die a Villain or see yourself become just another Stupid Hero

Now that Sylvanas has been redeemed and has become a good guy, she has been "demoted" in the eyes of the Story, she has lost her Villain Plot Armour and 19999IQ chess brain, and will now act stupidly like most good guys do

I hope Sylvanas enjoys being part of the Bland Gang, but don't worry, she's still not as pathetic as that burger Baine, who actually spent an entire year staring at a wall.

[micwini]

Destruction of the Wyrmrest temple makes the Dragon Isle appear as they’ve been hidden in a pocket dimension that was only accessed via the portals in Wyrmrest. But now that the temple is destroyed the nexus hub for the DI is as well and they just appear on Azeroth.

Interesting. The Obsidian Sanctum, Ruby Sanctum, being part of the dragon isles never occured to me.

[Vakir]

He is never called upon to make a choice between his morals and his duty in a way that presents a tangible risk to him. He just keeps doing what he thinks is right and the game keeps moving obstacles away to prevent him from facing any repercussions.

Thank you for verbalizing it this way, I never really could put it into direct words but this sums it up.

There was that one time he greenlit torture, but the writing never really lingers very long on it to unpack what that means and how it impacts anyone's perceptions of it, least of all himself.

Anduin can continue to make the right moral choices by his own compass, but if he does, he should suffer for it (for his own choices, not because of getting yeeted into the sky by edgy valkyries) or at least experience more pushback.

[Sondrelk]

What we see with Sylvanas Windrunner is the classic situation that happens to any redeemed villain. Since they are no longer "villains" for the sake of the Story, they lose their Villain Plot Armour, which made them 4000 IQ master minds who are ahead of everyone. Remember how Sylvanas was ahead of everyone in BfA (like how she manipulated the entire Alliance at Lordaeron, because they were the Lawful Stupid good guys and she was the villain)? This is NEVER happening again and we see this in the latest patch, where Sylvanas is acting like a retard alongside Jaina, Thrall, and Bolvar, who are certified Good Guys.

A classic, it always happens, you either die a Villain or see yourself become just another Stupid Hero

Now that Sylvanas has been redeemed and has become a good guy, she has been "demoted" in the eyes of the Story, she has lost her Villain Plot Armour and 19999IQ chess brain, and will now act stupidly like most good guys do

I hope Sylvanas enjoys being part of the Bland Gang, but don't worry, she's still not as pathetic as that burger Baine, who actually spent an entire year staring at a wall.

The annoying thing with Sylvanas is that Blizzard could have made it all make sense if they were willing to point out how much of an idiot Sylvanas actually is.

Just have her admit that she was in way over her head and that she isn't actually that intelligent and it all falls neatly into place.