Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sharby]

Meh, I still feel like Shadowlands was a good expansion, it just wasn't a cure for burnout because it is a relatively conservative expansion.

I've noticed that some people really wanted something groundbreaking after how contreversial BFA was in the fandom, and since Shadowlands isn't very groundbreaking people are taking their frustrations out on it.

But when you really look at it, Shadowlands solved a lot of problems.

Namely:

Alt-friendly
Targetable Legendaries
Irrelevant Mission Table
New Customization
Better Class Design
Better Leveling (though I think BFA zones were better.)
Better New Player Experience
Better Dungeon Design
Much better Flight Acquisition
Better Class Hall System
Great Vault
Quick fixes to most of the struggling content
Cross-faction gameplay


The only things I think that are pretty lacking still are how cumbersome open-world chores can be and PvP (as usual.) But even with all this in mind, none of this is the big shakeup people desire to fix their WoW fatigue. So now that wish is being placed on 10.0, we will see if it delivers.

Honestly I am feeling some of that desire too, and when I think about Shadowlands, it really does feel more like a maintenance ( =/= bad ) expansion that's light on features while they fix a lot of back-end stuff and update various areas of the game. I think now that they have all this new tech, 10.0 could really be a smash.



Side note:


I still think Legion should've been one of the last expacs, it really did feel like the conclusion to WoW with how much effort they put in. If it had cross-faction and a better legendary system it probably would've been super close to perfect.

[Darkarath]

Nothing felt as alien as Shadowlands. Outland was 'alien' and felt perfectly fine within the Warcraft universe, even Argus with all the spaceships, but not Shadowlands, not for me at least.

[Raetary]

If SL is Alien then so is MoP.

Except Pandaria was established from the ground up as a fundamental part of Azeroth.
From the non-alienating environments, to the races that make up the continent, the story playing into previously established plot lines, the continuation of titan and old god lore.

Whereas the Shadowlands are designed to be alien.
Monotone and overly-saturated/desaturated color schemes, zones completely detached from themselves only accessible through a warp drive, the main city being a big floating tower in empty space, alien creature design, etc.

You are comparing apples to cauliflower.

[Kiivar86]

Pandaria still felt like Azeroth.

Like half the zones in Shadowlands would slot into Azeroth with minimal issue.

Ardenweald is just a slightly more glowing Ashenvale, Revendreth would fit in pratically anywhere, Maldraxxus is specifically based design wise on the Plaguelands, the Maw is just Icecrown sans snow. Bastion's the only one that feels at all more ethereal and otherworldly.

Shadowlands is far from alien, almost hilariously so.

[Sondrelk]

Nothing felt as alien as Shadowlands. Outland was 'alien' and felt perfectly fine within the Warcraft universe, even Argus with all the spaceships, but not Shadowlands, not for me at least.

Personally I think the issue with SL is that each zone feels very disconnected. Revendreth and Maldraxxus don't feel alien, but they dont feel like they are "connected", which adds on to the general feeling the Shadowlands is a different game entirely.

[Lady Atia]

Like half the zones in Shadowlands would slot into Azeroth with minimal issue.

Ardenweald is just a slightly more glowing Ashenvale, Revendreth would fit in pratically anywhere, Maldraxxus is specifically based design wise on the Plaguelands, the Maw is just Icecrown sans snow. Bastion's the only one that feels at all more ethereal and otherworldly.

Shadowlands is far from alien, almost hilariously so.

And Bastion is basically a white/greecian version of Skyhold.

[bagina]

Nothing felt as alien as Shadowlands. Outland was 'alien' and felt perfectly fine within the Warcraft universe, even Argus with all the spaceships, but not Shadowlands, not for me at least.

Yeah, I'm gonna agree with you there. SL feel alien to Warcraft as a whole. They don't feel alien to us, players, becuase the visuals are pretty mundane actually. There's nothing "otherworldy" about them, safe for a few details here and there.

[The Stormbringer]

Looks shameful

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/1495822159813427206

They are MILKING Pocopoc, aren't they? It makes sense, he's cute, thematic, and likeable. Probably the best thing for 9.2, aside from the art assets used in the zone.

[Zankai27]

If SL is Alien then so is MoP.

No way; MoP was grounded in Pandaren who already existed, and other things were an extension of existing concepts. (Like the Jinyu being enlightened, evolved Murlocs), the Mogu tied back to Titans and Trolls, and the Mantid fit nicely with the other Aqir thematically) and Old Gods were still mysterious enough that there being one in Pandaria wasn’t a big stretch.

Meanwhile, Shadowlands retroactively trashes firmly established lore characters in service to a brand new no-name villain and introduces multiple races that only seem to connect to Azeroth because they say so, and only through further retcons; and the scope is so large as to make Azeroth feel insignificant and not in a good way.

I’m not going to deny that Pandaria was different, but I still believed that it connected, unlike now.

[Makorus]

They are MILKING Pocopoc, aren't they? It makes sense, he's cute, thematic, and likeable. Probably the best thing for 9.2, aside from the art assets used in the zone.

How are they milking Pocopoc?

That's like the only time he had a focus. Even in the survival guide he was only mentioned in an offhand comment.

[Vakir]

It's interesting how SL is too alien for some and not alien enough for others. Kind of speaks to how WoW has had so much variation and has had so many generations of players that it's a lot of different things to different people.

Just more reason I want complete, evergreen content old Azeroth update. Which is as unlikely as anything.

[Nightshade711]

Assuming we get a new race or class next xpac
Do y’all think they’d be playable before launch like DHs and the Allied Races?

[Darkarath]

Personally I think the issue with SL is that each zone feels very disconnected. Revendreth and Maldraxxus don't feel alien, but they dont feel like they are "connected", which adds on to the general feeling the Shadowlands is a different game entirely.

Definitively that did not help. I thought that they learned that lesson with Cataclysm. We want new continents, not isolated zones. That does not work. It partially worked in BfA because Zandalar and Kul'tiras were two mini continents, and they made the World of Warcraft bigger. But something like Shadowlands? Which is another plane in God knows where? Not, sir.

[Vakir]

Not to defend SL as a whole, but I do remember back in Legion and BFA that a lot of people were complaining about too many islands, contrived reasons for connected landmasses, and that everything was too self contained in 1-2 landmasses and thus there was no major feeling of traversal.

WoD had that complaint too, and in fairness, it is hilarious how Draenor before it exploded was mostly just Outland in the same shape with a couple new bells, and a bunch of other places we didn't care about enough to visit. Like a cartoon character crashing through a wall and leaving their silhouette as a hole.

Still not the right call, though. Hope the lesson was learned for them as much as the devs before then, because yes, it was an issue here as much as in Cataclysm

[Sondrelk]

Definitively that did not help. I thought that they learned that lesson with Cataclysm. We want new continents, not isolated zones. That does not work. It partially worked in BfA because Zandalar and Kul'tiras were two mini continents, and they made the World of Warcraft bigger. But something like Shadowlands? Which is another plane in God knows where? Not, sir.

Cata still felt like you were in the same world, just far away from eachother. SL feels Iike every single zone is a one-concept idea that doesn't fit with the other zones by design.

Zones in SL are theme parks with little to no link between each individual one.

- - - Updated - - -

Not to defend SL as a whole, but I do remember back in Legion and BFA that a lot of people were complaining about too many islands, contrived reasons for connected landmasses, and that everything was too self contained in 1-2 landmasses and thus there was no major feeling of traversal.

WoD had that complaint too, and in fairness, it is hilarious how Draenor before it exploded was mostly just Outland in the same shape with a couple new bells, and a bunch of other places we didn't care about enough to visit. Like a cartoon character crashing through a wall and leaving their silhouette as a hole.

Still not the right call, though. Hope the lesson was learned for them as much as the devs before then, because yes, it was an issue here as much as in Cataclysm

I think there is a middle ground that Blizzard doesn't really explore to its fullest. That of the semi-connected islands. Where there isn't an actual land border between the zones, but you are still capable of going between them without loading zones if you want.
The old South seas expansion ideas went with this, where you had 4-5 islands surrounding a large ocean in the middle where most of the content was.

[Vakir]

I think there is a middle ground that Blizzard doesn't really explore to its fullest. That of the semi-connected islands. Where there isn't an actual land border between the zones, but you are still capable of going between them without loading zones if you want.
The old South seas expansion ideas went with this, where you had 4-5 islands surrounding a large ocean in the middle where most of the content was.

So basically BFA but with the two continents split into thirds and on one world server? Examples being with less distance between them of course.

I could see it. And if we are indeed going to the Dragon Isles...well, it should be the dragon ISLES, not the Dragon Island, yeah

[The Stormbringer]

How are they milking Pocopoc?

That's like the only time he had a focus. Even in the survival guide he was only mentioned in an offhand comment.

I've seen him brought up multiple times and used in a lot of promotional stuff. I could be imagining things but it seems like they know he'll be popular, so they're using him.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Meh, I still feel like Shadowlands was a good expansion, it just wasn't a cure for burnout because it is a relatively conservative expansion.

I've noticed that some people really wanted something groundbreaking after how contreversial BFA was in the fandom, and since Shadowlands isn't very groundbreaking people are taking their frustrations out on it.

But when you really look at it, Shadowlands solved a lot of problems.

Namely:

Alt-friendly
Targetable Legendaries
Irrelevant Mission Table
New Customization
Better Class Design
Better Leveling (though I think BFA zones were better.)
Better New Player Experience
Better Dungeon Design
Much better Flight Acquisition
Better Class Hall System
Great Vault
Quick fixes to most of the struggling content
Cross-faction gameplay


The only things I think that are pretty lacking still are how cumbersome open-world chores can be and PvP (as usual.) But even with all this in mind, none of this is the big shakeup people desire to fix their WoW fatigue. So now that wish is being placed on 10.0, we will see if it delivers.

Honestly I am feeling some of that desire too, and when I think about Shadowlands, it really does feel more like a maintenance ( =/= bad ) expansion that's light on features while they fix a lot of back-end stuff and update various areas of the game. I think now that they have all this new tech, 10.0 could really be a smash.



Side note:


I still think Legion should've been one of the last expacs, it really did feel like the conclusion to WoW with how much effort they put in. If it had cross-faction and a better legendary system it probably would've been super close to perfect.

It improved on stuff but it fixed nothing, IMO. But I want to especially focus in on the Alt-Friendly part because I was just thinking about that the last few days.

I remember when SL was announced a ton of us, me included, said Blizz had "solved" Alt-Unfriendlyness from BFA/Legion by making it easier to level them and saying they wanted Covenants to be a non-power choice.

The former wasn't enough, and the latter ultimately was a lie. So we ended up right back where we always end up, with a very alt unfriendly expansion. Why? Because for every alt you have, that now-mandatory due to player power soulbind grind was doubled.

2 characters? Enjoy the same mandatory grind every day twice over.

4? Four times over.

Want to have one of every class? Hope you're paid to play WoW.

Getting rid of that feeling that "More alts = more mandatory grinds" is the lynch pin to actually solving Alt-Unfriendlyness. Because WoW isn't a community of teens or 20-somethings with 6 hours a day to devote to the game, and their principal competitor makes it very clear you do one grind and you get all the rewards no matter what class you are at the moment.

[Vakir]

I mean...they realize only a half dozen people give a fuck about Zovaal, so cute robots could be a worse way to advertise.

@Slowpoke is a Gamer

Pretty much. I'm not subbed now and it'll take a bit to bring me back, but I can't tell you how many times I'll still boot up a model viewer and fuck with mogs or read about new builds and their legendaries/synergies with tier sets and get interested...and then I think about the amount of catch-up involved and I immediately remember how impossible it is to enjoy more than one character, two at most, that I'm burnt out on while also having other obligations.

I feel punished to make new characters and get new spice in terms of variety. It literally is more demanding than getting a consistent D&D group together or leveling classes on the same character in that-other-game.

[Makabreska]

I've seen him brought up multiple times and used in a lot of promotional stuff. I could be imagining things but it seems like they know he'll be popular, so they're using him.

So what do you call Pepe exposure then? :v