Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Varx]

More like a fart.

Who knows maybe they use sulfur for some of their attacks.

Sulfur cannon, maybe it's a CC incapacitate.

Regardless can't wait!

[Ersula]

But you just said that this is the first time Blizzard is announcing an expansion like this?

Legion /10char

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Garrison was rly a good idea but it was wasted, i personally loved the stables where you could put your mounts to wander around.

This is a big problem with wow, indicative of Ion's approach to the game: If a feature doesn't have a lasting positive impression, they just make it irrelevant as soon as possible. Instead of the better, long term approach: Of fixing the feature until it becomes fun. So we have all these ideas that could have been fun, made trivial. IE Torghast, Garrisons, Scenarios, Warfronts, etc.

[Soulwind]

So we have all these ideas that could have been fun, made trivial. IE Torghast, Garrisons, Scenarios, Warfronts, etc.

The farm evolved into Garrisons, which (d)evolved into Class Halls, which evolved into Covenants.
Scenarios are still used for quests sometimes, but also evolved into stuff like the Trove of the Thunder King, Withered Army, the deaths of Chromie, Island Expeditions, Visions of N'zoth and Torghast.
Warfronts were indeed a new idea that didn't quite work in that form and they just dropped. Perhaps we'll see other attempts at cooperative base-building PvE/PvP gameplay in future expansions.

Now, any of these features could have been kept as they were, with just added content, but instead they chose to make them obsolete and bring a new version of them. At some point they'll probably create an evergreen "Torghast" that they can just add content to without it being necessarily tied to the current expansion, but they probably don't want to establish a new permanent feature of the game until they've decided that it's design is popular and fun enough, which Scenarios and Island Expeditions weren't.

[Ersula]

The farm evolved into Garrisons, which (d)evolved into Class Halls, which evolved into Covenants.

Scenarios as a game mechanic is just a phased instance: I was referring to Scenarios in MoP, which were 3-man dungeons. You can say "they made them obsolete to bring in a new version of them" but you're focusing on the aspect of these things that are set dressing, not, for example, the seige aspect of Garrisons, which was supposed to be the main mechanic, but almost no body did them, so they became irrelevant.

You're trying to frame these features as "evolving" but you're missing my entire point: They ditch a prime feature of an expansion, mid-expansion, to revamp it into a new form, the following expansion, only to ditch it halfway through, again. This is a horrible cycle. You managed to put a positive spin on an awful gameplay experience. And I'm sure Ion looks at it the same way.

If they actually prioritized making these new features fun during the expansion, they wouldn't need to create an entirely new feature each expansion, like Mythic+

[huth]

Scenarios as a game mechanic is just a phased instance: I was referring to Scenarios in MoP, which were 3-man dungeons.

They're not phased. They're full-on instances. Blizzard can just hide the loading screen since WoD.

[AngerFork]

Scenarios as a game mechanic is just a phased instance: I was referring to Scenarios in MoP, which were 3-man dungeons. You can say "they made them obsolete to bring in a new version of them" but you're focusing on the aspect of these things that are set dressing, not, for example, the seige aspect of Garrisons, which was supposed to be the main mechanic, but almost no body did them, so they became irrelevant.

You're trying to frame these features as "evolving" but you're missing my entire point: They ditch a prime feature of an expansion, mid-expansion, to revamp it into a new form, the following expansion, only to ditch it halfway through, again. This is a horrible cycle. You managed to put a positive spin on an awful gameplay experience. And I'm sure Ion looks at it the same way.

If they actually prioritized making these new features fun during the expansion, they wouldn't need to create an entirely new feature each expansion, like Mythic+

Agreed to an extent, but I feel you are missing one of the main reasons behind these decisions: non-permanence. With WoW up until Warlords, we had several features that were added into the game that once introduced became a baseline expectation for expansions that followed: Flying, Jewelcrafting, Inscription, Archaeology, new classes, & Pet Battles immediately come to mind. Each expansion afterwards expected these new pieces to be a part of the base game, increasing the amount of work it took to simply launch an expansion. Each new class for instance is a handful of specs to balance & adjust abilities on any time an expansion comes out...but realistically can't be marketed as such as it is baseline.

These features that you speak of being revamped & ditched is in part a way for them to keep a concept optional, so it is never required as more silent work. M+ for instance is somewhat updated/revamped each expansion & marketed with the new adjustments. Pet Battles on the other hand are still always added with new pets/abilities constantly added, yet never mentioned. This then is why I think they've had problems. I agree that they could make fun features out of most of their additions if they iterated, but with the non-permanence of these features what's the point? It's easier to cut bait & move onto the next feature that they can market, rather than fix & improve something they really can't market from here into the future.

I'm not saying I agree with this style...if anything, I think they'd be better off simply readding those features & fixing them. But I can see from a baseline work setup why they are doing it the way they do.

[Soulwind]

You're trying to frame these features as "evolving" but you're missing my entire point: They ditch a prime feature of an expansion, mid-expansion, to revamp it into a new form, the following expansion, only to ditch it halfway through, again. This is a horrible cycle. You managed to put a positive spin on an awful gameplay experience. And I'm sure Ion looks at it the same way.

If they actually prioritized making these new features fun during the expansion, they wouldn't need to create an entirely new feature each expansion, like Mythic+

But that's the thing, Scenarios "kind of" worked and "kind of" didn't. Some stuff was fine and some wasn't. Many players weren't satisfied with how they worked, which is why Blizzard kept iterating the formula.

Mythic+ was also an evolution of Challenge Mode. It wasn't kept as it was in its first version, it was transformed into something else. Once they were satisfied with how it worked, and they saw enough interest and participation, they kept the format.

Torghast is the most advanced version of Scenarios, which includes some (kind of, but not really) procedural gameplay, which was first (kind of, but really not) introduced in Expeditions. The biggest failure of Torghast was probably how it tied to legendaries, and now they know that people would rather do it for cosmetic rewards, and that most of it should be rather easy and silly, with optional challenges for more dedicated players. Like I said, it's likely some iteration of Torghast will be the thing that will stay, and that'll be the "ultimate" version of Scenarios that they couldn't do in MoP.

[Ersula]

But that's the thing, Scenarios "kind of" worked and "kind of" didn't. Some stuff was fine and some wasn't. Many players weren't satisfied with how they worked, which is why Blizzard kept iterating the formula.

Torghast is the most advanced version of Scenarios, which includes some (kind of, but not really) procedural gameplay, which was first (kind of, but really not) introduced in Expeditions. The biggest failure of Torghast was probably how it tied to legendaries, and now they know that people would rather do it for cosmetic rewards, and that most of it should be rather easy and silly, with optional challenges for more dedicated players. Like I said, it's likely some iteration of Torghast will be the thing that will stay, and that'll be the "ultimate" version of Scenarios that they couldn't do in MoP.

Thanks for explaining stuff I'm already aware of but my point remains true: Waiting until the following expansion to "fix" these features is bad game development.

"you got to deal with this bad feature because we're not fixing it until we can sell it to you in an expansion" is bad for the players & any rationalization of this is copium.

[Soulwind]

Thanks for explaining stuff I'm already aware of but my point remains true: Waiting until the following expansion to "fix" these features is bad game development.

"you got to deal with this bad feature because we're not fixing it until we can sell it to you in an expansion" is bad for the players & any rationalization of this is copium.

You wanted them to try and change Scenarios into stuff like Chromie, Visions and Torghast... during MoP? Ignoring the time spent into, y'know, coming up with those ideas, they have to program them, test them internally...

And yeah, there's an aspect of marketing, a new expansion needs new features, so they'd rather implement them in a .0 than in the last patch of the previous expansion, but it's not like you could have Scenarios in 5.0, Withered Army in 5.1, Island Expeditions in 5.2 and Torghast in 5.3. Well, you could, but it would cost you a you know what.

[Landrisser]

But that's the thing, Scenarios "kind of" worked and "kind of" didn't. Some stuff was fine and some wasn't. Many players weren't satisfied with how they worked, which is why Blizzard kept iterating the formula.

Mythic+ was also an evolution of Challenge Mode. It wasn't kept as it was in its first version, it was transformed into something else. Once they were satisfied with how it worked, and they saw enough interest and participation, they kept the format.

Torghast is the most advanced version of Scenarios, which includes some (kind of, but not really) procedural gameplay, which was first (kind of, but really not) introduced in Expeditions. The biggest failure of Torghast was probably how it tied to legendaries, and now they know that people would rather do it for cosmetic rewards, and that most of it should be rather easy and silly, with optional challenges for more dedicated players. Like I said, it's likely some iteration of Torghast will be the thing that will stay, and that'll be the "ultimate" version of Scenarios that they couldn't do in MoP.

Torghast is a zero effort zero budget mode that looks and plays like it was put together in a day. It uses the same handful of assets nonstop, even less assets than a $5 roguelike on Steam.

[Shinrael]

Legion /10char

It was announced at Gamescom though? I don't remember if the announcement of the announcement at Gamescom was done 2 weeks ahead, but in that specific case I'd argue the 2 weeks wouldn't be enough, as people might need to buy tickets in advance. But in the case of a livestream, you don't need much preparation other than just being online at that hour, if your timezone allows it. But again, it might be 2 weeks in advance indeed. I don't know. Just trying to say there is no past history to base an educated guess on as the situation is different.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

It was announced at Gamescom though? I don't remember if the announcement of the announcement at Gamescom was done 2 weeks ahead, but in that specific case I'd argue the 2 weeks wouldn't be enough, as people might need to buy tickets in advance. But in the case of a livestream, you don't need much preparation other than just being online at that hour, if your timezone allows it. But again, it might be 2 weeks in advance indeed. I don't know. Just trying to say there is no past history to base an educated guess on as the situation is different.

It was an interesting time honestly, I quoted some image reference I posted a few weeks back now here:

Since Legion was one of the few examples of an expansion announcement outside of BlizzCon,

it may be worth noting how the Announcement-for-the-Announcement in 2015 was a mere 8 days notice on July 29th for August 6th.



Seems we'd be in for a non-BlizzCon announcement of course this year too. Who knows

[Arcinatoss]

Man I remember progressing on socrethar on my glad stance warrior when that tweet came out, good times.

[Makabreska]

Man I remember progressing on socrethar on my glad stance warrior when that tweet came out, good times.

Wasn't that build dead by then? I was playing Shadow Priest Clarity of Power in Blackrock, also an experimental build.

[Shinrael]

It was an interesting time honestly, I quoted some image reference I posted a few weeks back now here:

Huh... Then what the f is up with people saying Blizzard is going to announce their announcement 2 weeks or more in advance xD ? They literally dropped their most popular expansion casually like that

[Catastrophy349]

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/...0fP8AA2-mUNl9w GET HYPE!

[Vakir]

...that link plus the caps made me think it was going to be something of substance, like an announcement.

[Teriz]

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/...0fP8AA2-mUNl9w GET HYPE!

My reaction to this was literally that gif of the guy opening the fridge expecting something good, but then being instantly disappointed.

[Raetary]

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/...0fP8AA2-mUNl9w GET HYPE!

Town it down big guy, it's not that exciting.

[micwini]

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/...0fP8AA2-mUNl9w GET HYPE!

You got me as well, good job