Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[ro9ue]

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...-vendor-2-cdn/

9.2.5 already on vendor 2 cdn

Other than the cross faction stuff is there any other content coming with that that we know of yet?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I really wonder why they brought Calia to Oribos

At this point it feels like just to remind us she exists.

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Other than the cross faction stuff is there any other content coming with that that we know of yet?

Nope, nothing. Probably some class balance from the raid, though.

Maybe a prologue-to-the-prologue for 10.0 if folks wanna get really spicy.

[Ersula]

It was obvious they were setting the stage for her as the new Forsaken leader after Sylvanas but I think they are either reconsidering or reworking it.

The realization that it makes no sense to have an Alliance sympathizer as a Horde faction leader. Sometimes they just add new characters they think are cool. They made Lilian Voss an homage to a mtg character it seems like Calia is also an homage to Teysa Karlov, the Orzhov paragon.

Perhaps they want to feature her in an evil Naaru story, or that early Shadowlands builds had Lilian dialog that was eventually cut completely. It seems Calia could have been involved in a storyline about Lilian & that tidesage who died during BFA.

[Raetary]

I hope Sylvanus is brought back to sit on the horde council as the leader of the dark rangers or whatever. People would literally explode with anger.

Please, i'm begging you.
No more!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Because Anduin was never in some elaborate moral quandary. He understood right and wrong, tried his absolute best to do the right thing and then was forcibly mind controlled and made to do terrible things. This cinematic wasn't about character development for him, it was about him breaking free, which he did, in the entire first half. His reaction and development re: the things that he was forced to do is not something to deal with in 90 seconds in a cinematic immediately after being freed, it's something for him to deal with in the years to come as it changes his approach and attitude, and who he is as a leader (or even not a leader if it results in him permanently stepping down).

So the second half is about that last little glimmer of Arthas, and since Arthas himself in this tiny fragmented form is unable to actually speak, his end is told through the person whose entire character was created by Arthas' actions and who was the only one in the group of people so heavily connected that still hasn't quite let go of lingering resentment.

Like I get not liking Sylvanas. I've disliked her since Vanilla/WC3, but this is the one case where Sylvanas makes the absolute MOST sense to be the one doing something. Not Jaina, who has long sense moved past Arthas and is worried about Anduin, or Uther, whose storyline was all about him figuring out how to let go of Arthas, or Anduin who is dealing with his own shit and whose only connection to Arthas is him being the soul used for the mourneblade forging. Your other (absolutely terrible) option here is to have Arthas himself come back and end his own storyline, which is just awful. It was a much wiser narrative decision to have his last appearance be just a fragment of an echo fading away, seen through the eyes of the one person that spent her entire un-life haunted by and hating that echo.

That's the problem of the constant Sylvanas bashing, even when it makes sense for her to be relevant on a scene, people will hate it simply because it *is* Sylvanas.

Even I would have put a bit less focus on her, but that is entirely reactionary from my part to appease the fanbase that has a hate boner against her.

[Ersula]

I hope Sylvanus is brought back to sit on the horde council as the leader of the dark rangers or whatever. People would literally explode with anger.

Based solely on the datamined animations, it looks like "tyrande's judgement" is for her to clear out the maw of all souls. Considering players have been doing this for 2 years for all we know she's going to be gone a few weeks. She's going to roll up in the middle of next expansion like Gandalf the white.

Personally I'm hoping for the Undead Night Elves & Undead High elves (including Sanlayn. The blood princes had unique features but the other Sanlayn were identical to Dark Rangers. No reason why one allied race couldn't represent both groups) being allied races soon.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

They have an entire lineup of characters who have just as much, if not more reason to hate Arthas there, but instead we focus on Sylvanas who is probably among those with the least amount of reason to interract with him.

We have Jaina, his former lover who left him at the crucial moment where he needed guidance the most, and who has been haunted by whether she made the right choice or not ever since.

We have Uther, who trained him and similarly to Jaina left him when he needed him most. Who saw his country fall at Arthas' hands, and whose hatred of him caused him to abandon his principles and take ultimate vengeance by ensuring Arthas suffered as much as possible.

JFC. They didn't *left* Arthas; they couldn't bear to stand by him when he was utterly hell bent in commiting such an atrocity in the name of self righteousness. Do you actually think they were wrong for leaving? That is their fault?

[username993720]

I hope Sylvanus is brought back to sit on the horde council as the leader of the dark rangers or whatever. People would literally explode with anger.

Probably what's going to happen.

[Ersula]

We have Jaina, his former lover who left him at the crucial moment where he needed guidance the most, and who has been haunted by whether she made the right choice or not ever since.

As the old addage states, "Behind every great man is a strong woman stopping him from going on a killing spree." /s

JFC what is this? You're comparing the lady he dated shortly to the lady whom he decimated her people, destroyed the sunwell & killed, turning her into an undead servant of a cosmic monster.

The argument that Jaina or Uther deserved the final word over Sylvanas is bad.

[Ersula]

They're also implying that Jaina was wrong to want no part in wholesale slaughter of innocent people and that somehow it's all her fault and if she had just stood by her psychotic man then the Lich King never would have happened.

I do understand that that's is how Jaina feels, even if that feeling is unfair to herself, and that Arthas is a big part of her life, but both Uther & Jaina would recognize, sheesh, Arthas did way more fucked up shit to Sylvanas: And the cutscene reflects that. I feel like the Anduin defeat cinematic is easily the least *confusing* cinematic of the BFA/Shadowlands era.

[Sondrelk]

JFC. They didn't *left* Arthas; they couldn't bear to stand by him when he was utterly hell bent in commiting such an atrocity in the name of self righteousness. Do you actually think they were wrong for leaving? That is their fault?

Both Jaina and Uther feel like they abandoned him, which is what makes their dynamic work. They were not necessarily wrong to leave him when he was about to do what they considered his greatest mistake, but that doesnt preventthem from feeling like they made a mistake regardless, or that they could have stopped him if they just stood there a bit longer debating.

Jaina has been tortured by this choice her entire life where she has been wondering whether she could have stopped this, and Uther has similarly been tortured by his choice to leave Arthas.

And yet in the end they don't really have a moment with Arthas in the end. Instead we just get that Sylvanas monologue like she has any right on the moral high ground when she was doing infinitely worse than Arthas by allying herself with the Jailer.

[Nyel]

You know what I find funny: Jaina was shunned for her wish to remove Horde from the Kirin Tor and Dalaran. And all that after Theramore was bombed by a Horde leader. On the same hand Sylvanas wiped Teldrassil and all seem to be fine with her because she’s showing remorse. Even Tyrande.

[UndedoKoleda]

I think you're confusing "we met once" as "being a major figure in their life." Arthas & Anduin story's barely intersect. Except in the way that there was a stone in a sword that turned him emo.

That doesn't matter. Even if they didn't meet at all, Anduin would still know who Arthas is/was.

[Ersula]

And yet in the end they don't really have a moment with Arthas in the end. Instead we just get that Sylvanas monologue like she has any right on the moral high ground when she was doing infinitely worse than Arthas by allying herself with the Jailer.

She says that specifically: The scene is one of solace, not condemnation. The sentiment these three people have for Arthas used to be hate, but now it's pity.

She literally says "I became you." and that's not "infinitely worse" because Arthas allied with the Jailer in the exact same way. It's unclear how much agency Arthas actually had (just like Sylvanas) but Arthas' selfish choices came before he died, rather than after, in the case of Sylvanas. That's the only difference. That and now Sylvanas is choosing to change: Arthas could have changed at any point during Reign of Chaos or Frozen Throne but he didn't: That's what makes Sylvanas marginally superior to Arthas.

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That doesn't matter. Even if they didn't meet at all, Anduin would still know who Arthas is/was.

Which was not the point of my post.

[YogSoggoth]

As the old addage states, "Behind every great man is a strong woman stopping him from going on a killing spree." /s

JFC what is this? You're comparing the lady he dated shortly to the lady whom he decimated her people, destroyed the sunwell & killed, turning her into an undead servant of a cosmic monster.

The argument that Jaina or Uther deserved the final word over Sylvanas is bad.

Both Jaina and Uther are still being tormented, thinking they, perhaps, could have prevented the whole Arthas ordeal if they'd just done something diffirently. We saw that Arthas still burdens them in BfA and SL. It would be a great send off for one of them to have a final word and finally let go of that burden, seeing Arthas being permanently wiped, realizing that there is nothing they can do to change that part of their lifes.
Sylvanas "oh how i suffered" high and mighty speech about Arthas, on the other hand, is so goddamn shallow and unapologetically soulless. Sure, he killed her. And he sure did destroyed the sunwell. But did she even gave a damn about the sunwell after her original death? I don't think she even mentioned her people's struggles once. And now she hi-jacks another goddamn cinematic. We have a legit nice setup for an Arthas send-off with Jaina and Uther, both crucial parts of his lifestory, alongside him in his final moments. And FUCKING SYLVANAS of all people gets to do the send-off? The character whose whole attitude to Arthas while he was still alive was "imma kill this mf"? This is the extent of their relation to one another, she's the last character in WoW that could possibly do the speech and ffs she did it anyway. Even Baine wouldn't be as bad of a choice at this point.

[Ersula]

You know what I find funny: Jaina was shunned for her wish to remove Horde from the Kirin Tor and Dalaran. And all that after Theramore was bombed by a Horde leader. On the same hand Sylvanas wiped Teldrassil and all seem to be fine with her because she’s showing remorse. Even Tyrande.

She tried to bomb Orgrimmar in retaliation (Tides of War.) Thrall talked her down. Also shunned is a weird way to describe, her quitting the Kirin Tor of her own volition.

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Sure, he killed her. And he sure did destroyed the sunwell. But did she even gave a damn about the sunwell after her original death?

She died defending it. What the hell is this argument? Just say you hate Sylvanas & log off.

[Sondrelk]

She says that specifically: The scene is one of solace, not condemnation. The sentiment these three people have for Arthas used to be hate, but now it's pity.

She literally says "I became you." and that's not "infinitely worse" because Arthas allied with the Jailer in the exact same way. It's unclear how much agency Arthas actually had (just like Sylvanas) but Arthas' selfish choices came before he died, rather than after, in the case of Sylvanas. That's the only difference. That and now Sylvanas is choosing to change: Arthas could have changed at any point during Reign of Chaos or Frozen Throne but he didn't: That's what makes Sylvanas marginally superior to Arthas.

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Which was not the point of my post.

Arthas killed a whole bunch of people as the Lich King, ignoring that the worst he did was kill a city with moral justification.

Killing a city is the baseline evil Sylvanas has done while fully in control, and she didnt even have a good justification. Afterwards however we learn she wanted the dead souls to fuel the forges of a omnicidal maniac who wants to kill the universe.

[UndedoKoleda]

Which was not the point of my post.

This is literally your post-

Anduing going "Arthas?" was even a stretch because I'm like, if Anduin saw a picture of Arthas, would he even know who he was?

[Vakir]

Fourth time, right? Isn't this basically what the Titans said to us when they bade us farewell and used their power to trap Sargeras to eternally play Cards Against Humanity with them and Illidan?

Side note, not bashing that cutscene, Velen's sigh at the end is legit my favorite moment in the series.

Yup, fourth. Hard to keep track these days.

Based solely on the datamined animations, it looks like "tyrande's judgement" is for her to clear out the maw of all souls. Considering players have been doing this for 2 years for all we know she's going to be gone a few weeks. She's going to roll up in the middle of next expansion like Gandalf the white.

I...what?

The person was kidding and implying it was a bad writing decision.

Do you genuinely see this happening and, if so, think it's a good story beat? Honest questions.

[Ersula]

Arthas killed a whole bunch of people as the Lich King, ignoring that the worst he did was kill a city with moral justification.

Killing a city is the baseline evil Sylvanas has done while fully in control, and she didnt even have a good justification. Afterwards however we learn she wanted the dead souls to fuel the forges of a omnicidal maniac who wants to kill the universe.

If you can justify Stratholme I can justify killing a night elf is just a valid form of euthanasia.

Also i see why you seem confused: Sylvanas was part of a plan to replace the universe with a better universe** when she learned he actually wanted to rule over all of reality she turned on him. That's what happened. And then that's before the whole soul splitting bullshit. You can argue it's stupid she didn't suspect betrayal until this moment, but that's what happened, canonically. Sylvanas actually changing her mind makes her morally superior: that's the entire premise of a what is called a "redemption arc."

**Though the story has abandoned this idea after playing with it for a while, I agree, the current system is really bad: The Jailer would have failed if the Archon hadn't ignored thousands of years worth of red flags, for example. It's a bad system run by dumb characters. Hell, if they had run with this idea, and the Jailer's new universe was better than the one we have now, on a utilitarian level, Sylvanas and Arthas would have both been morally correct.