Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Ersula]

We have Jaina, his former lover who left him at the crucial moment where he needed guidance the most, and who has been haunted by whether she made the right choice or not ever since.

As the old addage states, "Behind every great man is a strong woman stopping him from going on a killing spree." /s

JFC what is this? You're comparing the lady he dated shortly to the lady whom he decimated her people, destroyed the sunwell & killed, turning her into an undead servant of a cosmic monster.

The argument that Jaina or Uther deserved the final word over Sylvanas is bad.

[Ersula]

They're also implying that Jaina was wrong to want no part in wholesale slaughter of innocent people and that somehow it's all her fault and if she had just stood by her psychotic man then the Lich King never would have happened.

I do understand that that's is how Jaina feels, even if that feeling is unfair to herself, and that Arthas is a big part of her life, but both Uther & Jaina would recognize, sheesh, Arthas did way more fucked up shit to Sylvanas: And the cutscene reflects that. I feel like the Anduin defeat cinematic is easily the least *confusing* cinematic of the BFA/Shadowlands era.

[Sondrelk]

JFC. They didn't *left* Arthas; they couldn't bear to stand by him when he was utterly hell bent in commiting such an atrocity in the name of self righteousness. Do you actually think they were wrong for leaving? That is their fault?

Both Jaina and Uther feel like they abandoned him, which is what makes their dynamic work. They were not necessarily wrong to leave him when he was about to do what they considered his greatest mistake, but that doesnt preventthem from feeling like they made a mistake regardless, or that they could have stopped him if they just stood there a bit longer debating.

Jaina has been tortured by this choice her entire life where she has been wondering whether she could have stopped this, and Uther has similarly been tortured by his choice to leave Arthas.

And yet in the end they don't really have a moment with Arthas in the end. Instead we just get that Sylvanas monologue like she has any right on the moral high ground when she was doing infinitely worse than Arthas by allying herself with the Jailer.

[Nyel]

You know what I find funny: Jaina was shunned for her wish to remove Horde from the Kirin Tor and Dalaran. And all that after Theramore was bombed by a Horde leader. On the same hand Sylvanas wiped Teldrassil and all seem to be fine with her because she’s showing remorse. Even Tyrande.

[UndedoKoleda]

I think you're confusing "we met once" as "being a major figure in their life." Arthas & Anduin story's barely intersect. Except in the way that there was a stone in a sword that turned him emo.

That doesn't matter. Even if they didn't meet at all, Anduin would still know who Arthas is/was.

[Ersula]

And yet in the end they don't really have a moment with Arthas in the end. Instead we just get that Sylvanas monologue like she has any right on the moral high ground when she was doing infinitely worse than Arthas by allying herself with the Jailer.

She says that specifically: The scene is one of solace, not condemnation. The sentiment these three people have for Arthas used to be hate, but now it's pity.

She literally says "I became you." and that's not "infinitely worse" because Arthas allied with the Jailer in the exact same way. It's unclear how much agency Arthas actually had (just like Sylvanas) but Arthas' selfish choices came before he died, rather than after, in the case of Sylvanas. That's the only difference. That and now Sylvanas is choosing to change: Arthas could have changed at any point during Reign of Chaos or Frozen Throne but he didn't: That's what makes Sylvanas marginally superior to Arthas.

- - - Updated - - -

That doesn't matter. Even if they didn't meet at all, Anduin would still know who Arthas is/was.

Which was not the point of my post.

[YogSoggoth]

As the old addage states, "Behind every great man is a strong woman stopping him from going on a killing spree." /s

JFC what is this? You're comparing the lady he dated shortly to the lady whom he decimated her people, destroyed the sunwell & killed, turning her into an undead servant of a cosmic monster.

The argument that Jaina or Uther deserved the final word over Sylvanas is bad.

Both Jaina and Uther are still being tormented, thinking they, perhaps, could have prevented the whole Arthas ordeal if they'd just done something diffirently. We saw that Arthas still burdens them in BfA and SL. It would be a great send off for one of them to have a final word and finally let go of that burden, seeing Arthas being permanently wiped, realizing that there is nothing they can do to change that part of their lifes.
Sylvanas "oh how i suffered" high and mighty speech about Arthas, on the other hand, is so goddamn shallow and unapologetically soulless. Sure, he killed her. And he sure did destroyed the sunwell. But did she even gave a damn about the sunwell after her original death? I don't think she even mentioned her people's struggles once. And now she hi-jacks another goddamn cinematic. We have a legit nice setup for an Arthas send-off with Jaina and Uther, both crucial parts of his lifestory, alongside him in his final moments. And FUCKING SYLVANAS of all people gets to do the send-off? The character whose whole attitude to Arthas while he was still alive was "imma kill this mf"? This is the extent of their relation to one another, she's the last character in WoW that could possibly do the speech and ffs she did it anyway. Even Baine wouldn't be as bad of a choice at this point.

[Ersula]

You know what I find funny: Jaina was shunned for her wish to remove Horde from the Kirin Tor and Dalaran. And all that after Theramore was bombed by a Horde leader. On the same hand Sylvanas wiped Teldrassil and all seem to be fine with her because she’s showing remorse. Even Tyrande.

She tried to bomb Orgrimmar in retaliation (Tides of War.) Thrall talked her down. Also shunned is a weird way to describe, her quitting the Kirin Tor of her own volition.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure, he killed her. And he sure did destroyed the sunwell. But did she even gave a damn about the sunwell after her original death?

She died defending it. What the hell is this argument? Just say you hate Sylvanas & log off.

[Sondrelk]

She says that specifically: The scene is one of solace, not condemnation. The sentiment these three people have for Arthas used to be hate, but now it's pity.

She literally says "I became you." and that's not "infinitely worse" because Arthas allied with the Jailer in the exact same way. It's unclear how much agency Arthas actually had (just like Sylvanas) but Arthas' selfish choices came before he died, rather than after, in the case of Sylvanas. That's the only difference. That and now Sylvanas is choosing to change: Arthas could have changed at any point during Reign of Chaos or Frozen Throne but he didn't: That's what makes Sylvanas marginally superior to Arthas.

- - - Updated - - -


Which was not the point of my post.

Arthas killed a whole bunch of people as the Lich King, ignoring that the worst he did was kill a city with moral justification.

Killing a city is the baseline evil Sylvanas has done while fully in control, and she didnt even have a good justification. Afterwards however we learn she wanted the dead souls to fuel the forges of a omnicidal maniac who wants to kill the universe.

[UndedoKoleda]

Which was not the point of my post.

This is literally your post-

Anduing going "Arthas?" was even a stretch because I'm like, if Anduin saw a picture of Arthas, would he even know who he was?

[Vakir]

Fourth time, right? Isn't this basically what the Titans said to us when they bade us farewell and used their power to trap Sargeras to eternally play Cards Against Humanity with them and Illidan?

Side note, not bashing that cutscene, Velen's sigh at the end is legit my favorite moment in the series.

Yup, fourth. Hard to keep track these days.

Based solely on the datamined animations, it looks like "tyrande's judgement" is for her to clear out the maw of all souls. Considering players have been doing this for 2 years for all we know she's going to be gone a few weeks. She's going to roll up in the middle of next expansion like Gandalf the white.

I...what?

The person was kidding and implying it was a bad writing decision.

Do you genuinely see this happening and, if so, think it's a good story beat? Honest questions.

[Ersula]

Arthas killed a whole bunch of people as the Lich King, ignoring that the worst he did was kill a city with moral justification.

Killing a city is the baseline evil Sylvanas has done while fully in control, and she didnt even have a good justification. Afterwards however we learn she wanted the dead souls to fuel the forges of a omnicidal maniac who wants to kill the universe.

If you can justify Stratholme I can justify killing a night elf is just a valid form of euthanasia.

Also i see why you seem confused: Sylvanas was part of a plan to replace the universe with a better universe** when she learned he actually wanted to rule over all of reality she turned on him. That's what happened. And then that's before the whole soul splitting bullshit. You can argue it's stupid she didn't suspect betrayal until this moment, but that's what happened, canonically. Sylvanas actually changing her mind makes her morally superior: that's the entire premise of a what is called a "redemption arc."

**Though the story has abandoned this idea after playing with it for a while, I agree, the current system is really bad: The Jailer would have failed if the Archon hadn't ignored thousands of years worth of red flags, for example. It's a bad system run by dumb characters. Hell, if they had run with this idea, and the Jailer's new universe was better than the one we have now, on a utilitarian level, Sylvanas and Arthas would have both been morally correct.

[Khaza-R]

Also i see why you seem confused: Sylvanas was part of a plan to replace the universe with a better universe** when she learned he actually wanted to rule over all of reality she turned on him. That's what happened. You can argue it's stupid she didn't suspect betrayal until this moment, but that's what happened, canonically. Sylvanas actually changing her mind makes her morally superior: that's the entire premise of a what is called a "redemption arc."

A bit of an understatement there. Although there's a lot of terrible writing in Shadowlands, Sylvanas being surprised the Jailer's motives were less than altruistic has to take the cake.

[Ersula]

I...what?

The person was kidding and implying it was a bad writing decision.

Do you genuinely see this happening and, if so, think it's a good story beat? Honest questions.

Danuser already said in an interview this isn't "the end of Sylvanas Windrunner"

MCU Loki killed a billion people & is still getting his own show. If you personally don't like villains turning into heroes that's valid but it's don't act like a popular story contrivance is just "bad writing decisions." Honestly Sylvanas is following the Loki formula completely with the first Avengers movie being Teldrassil, 9.1 being Thor 2 & 9.2 being Thor Ragnarok

World of Warcraft's 9th Expansion: World of Warcraft: Sylvanas, where we're all alternate reality versions of Sylvanas & Sylvanas meets Sylvo Windrunner, the male alt version of Sylvanas

[Archmage Xaxxas]

A bit of an understatement there. Although there's a lot of terrible writing in Shadowlands, Sylvanas being surprised the Jailer's motives were less than altruistic has to take the cake.

Only because the story behind her feelings towards Zovaal were not explicitly shown.

Don't you think Sylvanas can relate with being Dominated? like Zovaal was?


Her faith of him coming through was probably just as strong as her faith that she was doing the right thing, that she wasn't a villain herself, or doomed to forever be one because of what Arthas did.

Zovaal's imprisonment, being forced by The Primus to become The Jailer is his version of Arthas turning Sylvanas into a Banshee.

She grew beyond it, and probably hoped he would too.

[Vakir]

A bit of an understatement there. Although there's a lot of terrible writing in Shadowlands, Sylvanas being surprised the Jailer's motives were less than altruistic has to take the cake.

"What was the name of the hat again, Sylvanas?"
"...the...helm of...Domination."
"What was that?"
"The Helm of Domination."
"Got it. And what's he using to move this large landmass?"
"Sigh...chains."
"Hmmm?"
"CHAINS..."
"Right. So in the future, it may serve you to think carefully about..."
"I WILL NEVER SERVE."

Danuser already said in an interview this isn't "the end of Sylvanas Windrunner"

MCU Loki killed a billion people & is still getting his own show. If you personally don't like villains turning into heroes that's valid but it's don't act like a popular story contrivance is just "bad writing decisions"

You didn't answer my questions, you just obfuscated by comparing Sylvanas to a character who is actually interesting, far more consistent in characterization outside of Whedon's trash depiction, isn't exhausting to the majority, and reaps actual consequences for actions.

Even then, when Loki shares the screen with other characters outside of his show, the story miraculously doesn't disappear up his asshole.

So I reiterate my questions.

[Ersula]

A bit of an understatement there. Although there's a lot of terrible writing in Shadowlands, Sylvanas being surprised the Jailer's motives were less than altruistic has to take the cake.

True, but we have to assume Arthas was operating under the same idea, only he never showed remorse.

We have to assume in retrospect Arthas was operating under the same idea, right? They're reached this ambiguity where it's unclear how much choice either Sylvanas & Arthas had, but you have to give them both the same benefit of the doubt: You can't say Sylvanas has all her free will & Arthas had none. They've been telling us over & over they were in the same situation.

[Vakir]

The Sylvanas and Arthas dichotomy is only a fair idea when you look at it from a purely Watsonian perspective.

The actual reason there's a difference in how one was able to show remorse and change their path is that a new set of concepts and opportunities were introduced to allow a redemption and path for Sylvanas to get off with minimal consequences and have an actual future. Sylvanas has this for very clear Doylist reasons from an extremely biased writer.

That's not to say Arthas should show remorse or get jack shit, I personally think it would devalue him as a villain to do so, but the reason it rings hollow by comparison is because you can see the strings and the entire artifice of the conceit.

So using the character's status as evidence of itself is meaningless. They did not get similar hands or get dealt from the same deck, and frankly they weren't playing the same game.

[Ersula]

You didn't answer my questions, you just obfuscated by comparing Sylvanas to a character who is actually interesting, far more consistent in characterization outside of Whedon's trash depiction, isn't exhausting to the majority, and reaps actual consequences for actions.

Even then, when Loki shares the screen with other characters outside of his show, the story miraculously doesn't disappear up his asshole.

So I reiterate my questions.

You seem more confused than me. You want the Loki story to pretend Avengers never happened the same way I would like to pretend Teldrassil never happened, when the story that exists is already abundantly clear they're not pretending that. They story, both MCU & World of Warcraft, has just decided to forgive Loki the same way they're forgiving Sylvanas.

Are you saying Sylvanas retrieving a million souls from the maw is not as severe as Loki's punishment...sitting in his father's luxury apartment dungeon for 2 years?

[Khaza-R]

Only because the story behind her feelings towards Zovaal were not explicitly shown.

Don't you think Sylvanas can relate with being Dominated? like Zovaal was?


Her faith of him coming through was probably just as strong as her faith that she was doing the right thing, that she wasn't a villain herself, or doomed to forever be one because of what Arthas did.

Zovaal's imprisonment, being forced by The Primus to become The Jailer is his version of Arthas turning Sylvanas into a Banshee.

She grew beyond it, and probably hoped he would too.

Perhaps in their first meeting, when she was completely ignorant of the Shadowlands and how it operated. I could possibly believe that.

But not once she's been to the Maw and to Torghast. That just becomes to large of leap in plausible denial for me.