Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[ilgynoth]

HAHAHAHA that Sylvanas part is AMAZING!
They literally destroyed Arthas and everyone who said for the past 2 years that Arthas is the most iconic figure if WoW, which he is long time no more. Since BfA its Sylvanas and everyone was like "Noooooooooooo, its Arthas boohooo *bitchin*"
Obviously Blizzard would never treat his most iconic character like a worthless poop cloud. Man they REALLY destroyed Arthas hahaha. damn. That was brutal. xd


But the most hilarious part of this Cinematic was the moda fucking Sadfang. Like bro, we killed this peace of shit for good in BfA, litterally made him into a Trinket AND SOMEHOW!!! SOMEHOW this peace of shit comes back just to say one more fucking time "HONOR!!!!" BRAAA, thats overkilling a meme


Anyway, it's funny to see some incels on different forums/reddits/tweets how they complain that they destroyed all the "masculin males" like arthas, garrosh and made them into dust shit, while Sylvanas will never face it. - YEAH BRO, lmao imagin comparing losers like garrosh or arthas to the LITERAL most iconic WoW Character

[Syegfryed]

People with no experience in writing or anything, saying it is "objectively bad storytelling" while not being able to elaborate why and just mention "Oh, Sylvanas shows up" is my favourite trope of this thread. Still going stronger after almost 1400 pages!

ah yes, the copium, that is my favorite about people defending blizzard.

you cannot say something is good or bad unless you have experience on it, finest fallacy of authority.

Like people said, there is countless of hours dedicate to why shadowlands story is awful and this one cinematic in specific, already said in this very thread, you are ignoring those pretending you would care if we explain why, cause we both know people who ask why never rly care about and just handwave the issues.

[Nyel]

The writing of FFXIV is so good that people tell you to skip until late Heavensward/Stormblood

Until Heavensward. And they tell you that because the first main story (aka WoW Vanilla, if you want to make the comparison) is dragging on forever and setting all the things in motion that unfold later. It's like a very long prologue. But it's from 2010-2012 as well. So why are we comparing those two things and not what FFXIV achieved later on?

[Landrisser]

The writing of FFXIV is so good that people tell you to skip until late Heavensward/Stormblood

Sounds like these are people that only exist in your head. You will get made fun of in the ff14 community if you buy the skips, lmao.

FF14 has a lot of world building and politics early on. This usually filters WoW players like you. It’s understandable that someone who is defending WoW’s writing doesn’t have the attention span to sit through something more complex than an mlp fanfic lol.

[Nyel]

We have Bolvar, who was tortured by the Lich King, but ultimately decided to take the burden of holding back the Jailer.

Yeah by the way, where was Bolvar? Did he have any lines? It's so weird he was there but yet again didn't have anything to do or say in the cinematic.

[Makorus]

They have an entire lineup of characters who have just as much, if not more reason to hate Arthas there, but instead we focus on Sylvanas who is probably among those with the least amount of reason to interract with him.

We have Jaina, his former lover who left him at the crucial moment where he needed guidance the most, and who has been haunted by whether she made the right choice or not ever since.

We have Uther, who trained him and similarly to Jaina left him when he needed him most. Who saw his country fall at Arthas' hands, and whose hatred of him caused him to abandon his principles and take ultimate vengeance by ensuring Arthas suffered as much as possible.

We have Bolvar, who was tortured by the Lich King, but ultimately decided to take the burden of holding back the Jailer.

And we have Anduin, who is similar to Arthas a prince taking on far too much responsibility, and who ended up suffering much of the same torment Arthas did at the hands of the Jailer.

And yet despite all these characters having much to do with Arthas, we really only hear Sylvanas, a character who has been massively overplayed even considering how despised she is in the community.
It all ends up with a general feeling that the story is far too fixated on Sylvanas.

The expansion literally deals with Uther coming to terms with Arthas. That's literally what the entire Bastion (and I think) part of the Korthia questline is about.

Jaina has come to terms with her fault in Arthas' downfall. That's literally what her arc in BfA is partially about, culminating in the cinematic of her being in Thros. "Forgive yourself and don't look back on what happened".

Bolvar is so irrelevant in the bigger picture with Arthas that it would be laughable if he started with his big emotional monologue.

Sylvanas is the only one who still suffers because of Arthas. She is the only one who never got any kind of resolution. Her entire motivation for the biggest part of WoW was getting revenge on Arthas, which she ultimately didn't even get. She was the last character with any loose threads relating to Arthas (of the characters that mattered anyway, not gonna start listing characters like Muradin).

Having Jaina, or Uther go over it AGAIN would not just be idiotic, it would make previous cinematics and story developments redundant and less impactful.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah by the way, where was Bolvar? Did he have any lines? It's so weird he was there but yet again didn't have anything to do or say in the cinematic.

He was supposed to be a important figure and main character in shadowlands, guess what? cut to showcase Sylvanus, she is our true protagonist and all we need.

And then you have to read people talking how shadowlands story isn't garbage

[Landrisser]

The expansion literally deals with Uther coming to terms with Arthas. That's literally what the entire Bastion (and I think) part of the Korthia questline is about.

Jaina has come to terms with her fault in Arthas' downfall. That's literally what her arc in BfA is partially about, culminating in the cinematic of her being in Thros. "Forgive yourself and don't look back on what happened".

Bolvar is so irrelevant in the bigger picture with Arthas that it would be laughable if he started with his big emotional monologue.

Sylvanas is the only one who still suffers because of Arthas. She is the only one who never got any kind of resolution. Her entire motivation for the biggest part of WoW was getting revenge on Arthas, which she ultimately didn't even get. She was the last character with any loose threads relating to Arthas (of the characters that mattered anyway, not gonna start listing characters like Muradin).

Having Jaina, or Uther go over it AGAIN would not just be idiotic, it would make previous cinematics and story developments redundant and less impactful.

You know what would make a story development redundant and less impactful? Having a character who committed genocide, and was manipulated by the jailer, try to take the moral high ground against someone who was dominated by the jailer.

“Bolvar is so irrelevant”

Yeah, no kidding. He’s irrelevant because the writing is bad and the writers have no clue what to do with him.

Extremely cringe post. You shouldn’t be talking about bad ideas from the community when yours are so utterly brainless.

[Nyel]

This cinematic plot hole is also very funny. Just found this comment on wowhead:

So was that actually Saurfang and Varian's spirits? If so how did they get there? Varian should have been judged since he was killed before Argus but Saurfang was killed after so shouldn't he have been in the maw?

I'm sure someone of the "Shadowlands is awesome" brigade will explain to me why this worked and was well done, but I'm still waiting for a proper explanation without contradicting the lore they tried to set up in Shadowlands.

Edit: in before those are just Anduin's memories

[Makorus]

This cinematic plot hole is also very funny. Just found this comment on wowhead:

So was that actually Saurfang and Varian's spirits? If so how did they get there? Varian should have been judged since he was killed before Argus but Saurfang was killed after so shouldn't he have been in the maw?

I'm sure someone of the "Shadowlands is awesome" brigade will explain to me why this worked and was well done, but I'm still waiting for a proper explanation without contradicting the lore they tried to set up in Shadowlands.

I don't think they are actual "ghost spirits" per se, they don't look like any Shadowlands souls anyway.

They both used the sword so it might have something to do with the sword.


I think that because something similiar happened in Legion. (And don't even argue "Oh, he is just remembering the SoO cinematic because it's a reused voice line", because that would make no sense)

[Shadochi]

This cinematic plot hole is also very funny. Just found this comment on wowhead:

So was that actually Saurfang and Varian's spirits? If so how did they get there? Varian should have been judged since he was killed before Argus but Saurfang was killed after so shouldn't he have been in the maw?

I'm sure someone of the "Shadowlands is awesome" brigade will explain to me why this worked and was well done, but I'm still waiting for a proper explanation without contradicting the lore they tried to set up in Shadowlands.

Edit: in before those are just Anduin's memories

Here is my take on it:

Honestly seeing how it had both Saurfang and Varian, and how Varian said it is made of Valor, I am keen to believe that Shalamayne is like the Valor version of a mourneblade, where a part of the users soul will be bound to it if used for valorous purposes (or if they die fighting?). As Varian should've been somewhere in SL or dusted (he died before the machine broke) and Saurfang should be in the Maw.

Also saying that, they basically told us that the Eternal Ones, or at least arbiter, were robots in the announcement leading up to SL by stating the Machine of Death broke

Would also tie in to 7.2 when Anduin gets the sword

[Landrisser]

I don't think they are actual "ghost spirits" per se, they don't look like any Shadowlands souls anyway.

They both used the sword so it might have something to do with the sword.


I think that because something similiar happened in Legion. (And don't even argue "Oh, he is just remembering the SoO cinematic because it's a reused voice line", because that would make no sense)

You’re not actually answering anything with these “explanations”. If it has something to do with the sword then what is the sword doing? Is it making him hallucinate? Is the sword another version of the shadowlands where spirits go? If they aren’t ghosts then what are they? Why was none of this ever established in the story before?

Your “explanations” only lead to more questions.

[Kiivar86]

Edit: in before those are just Anduin's memories

I know you said that but I do think it was essentially that, yes. Basically Anduin's internal struggle.

Also Saurfang ends up that trinket from Sylvanas.

[Makorus]

You’re not actually answering anything with these “explanations”. If it has something to do with the sword then what is the sword doing? Is it making him hallucinate? Is the sword another version of the shadowlands where spirits go? If they aren’t ghosts then what are they? Why was none of this ever established in the story before?

Your “explanations” only lead to more questions.

Not everything needs an explanation before you can accept it for what it is.

It's clearly related to the sword. It happened in 7.2, showing the spirit of the original wielder who died while wielding it. It happened again now, showing the original wielder along with someone else who died wielding it.

But sure, can't wait for you turn it around on me and be like "well frostmourne didn't need an explanation and yet they did that in Shadowlands xD". Get a life loser.

[Vasoka]

Thanks for proving my point.

I mean, I deeply care about the literary analysis of people who think that Warcraft 3 is an artistic masterpiece of writing and think Arthas is one of the best written characters in fiction.

Warcraft 3 is an artistic masterpiece renowned through the decades, Arthas is one of the most iconic fantasy heroes of all times, of all franchises. You're not fooling anyone, Danuser. We know you can't handle toxic masculinity in Warcraft, but at least put some effort in your shilling.

I don't need to explain facts which any fantasy fan knows and has affirmed over the years - as I said, if you need to be explained this, you are not worth the quote. I regret I even wasted 1 min writing this.

Next up, explain why LoTR is a fantasy classic because our boy Makorus needs an elaboration.

[Nyel]

I know you said that but I do think it was essentially that, yes. Basically Anduin's internal struggle.

Also Saurfang ends up that trinket from Sylvanas.

So it's just Anduin remembering during a convenient spot in the storyline... I mean sure, why not. It's just a bit lazy that this all of a sudden is the reason why he breaks free from the domination magic.

[Landrisser]

Not everything needs an explanation before you can accept it for what it is.

LOL. This is the exact mindset needed for someone to wholeheartedly defend WoW’s writing.

You have no clue by what mechanisms any of what transpired happened, and neither do the writers. Which was my point. It’s bad writing by incompetent writers who put very little thought into what they write. Get a life? You’re giving me plenty of life with your hilarious posts

[Shadochi]

So it's just Anduin remembering during a convenient spot in the storyline... I mean sure, why not. It's just a bit lazy that this all of a sudden is the reason why he breaks free from the domination magic.

I mean its not the first time we weaken someone enough for them to snap out

[Nyel]

I mean its not the first time we weaken someone enough for them to snap out

Yeah, exactly that. It's just very... basic and overused. Reminds me of famous TV shows that bring back "dead" characters or characters that left the show just to reinvigorate the show and get some viewers back.

[Pheraz]

Because Anduin was never in some elaborate moral quandary. He understood right and wrong, tried his absolute best to do the right thing and then was forcibly mind controlled and made to do terrible things. This cinematic wasn't about character development for him, it was about him breaking free, which he did, in the entire first half. His reaction and development re: the things that he was forced to do is not something to deal with in 90 seconds in a cinematic immediately after being freed, it's something for him to deal with in the years to come as it changes his approach and attitude, and who he is as a leader (or even not a leader if it results in him permanently stepping down).

So the second half is about that last little glimmer of Arthas, and since Arthas himself in this tiny fragmented form is unable to actually speak, his end is told through the person whose entire character was created by Arthas' actions and who was the only one in the group of people so heavily connected that still hasn't quite let go of lingering resentment.

Like I get not liking Sylvanas. I've disliked her since Vanilla/WC3, but this is the one case where Sylvanas makes the absolute MOST sense to be the one doing something. Not Jaina, who has long sense moved past Arthas and is worried about Anduin, or Uther, whose storyline was all about him figuring out how to let go of Arthas, or Anduin who is dealing with his own shit and whose only connection to Arthas is him being the soul used for the mourneblade forging. Your other (absolutely terrible) option here is to have Arthas himself come back and end his own storyline, which is just awful. It was a much wiser narrative decision to have his last appearance be just a fragment of an echo fading away, seen through the eyes of the one person that spent her entire un-life haunted by and hating that echo.

Yeah maybe you are right. And it is just that I really can't see her face anymore. It's like everything is cycling around her. Anyways, great artistic work (as always).