Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Varx]

You're contradicting yourself now.

You mentioned systems before and now you're advocating for permanancy. Systems are the antithesis of permanent content. In fact, systems that are tied into player power - artifacts, AZ armor or covenants - are actually Blizzard's shortcut to avoid having to deal with the base talent trees directly. So you see, classes have actually been designed around a temporary focused philosophy.

Moreover an entire world revamp is unpractical. What they can do is do what they did in Cata. Focus on a few zones - Uldum, Twilight Highlands - as the new content and possibly upgrade a few more here and there. Then, throughout the course of the expansion, upgrade some more.

Cata revamped all of EK and Kal. So it's not impossible, it's just not needed.

And I'm not against systems that are bad. I'm against an entire world revamp since we don't need it in the way cata did.

[Nyel]

I still think the best case for a world revamp is to go look at Thoradin's Wall. On one side you have BFA Arathi, on the other Cata Hillsbrad. And the difference shows.

Though also, maybe I'm just old, but I think WoW needs to start you off in the OG. Eastern Kingdoms/Kalimdor, big open experience, the classic cities.

Not like it is now where it sends you off to two islands in the middle of the ocean for 40 levels.

The entire leveling just doesn’t work anymore. That’s an issue. But that’s due to the game being so old. Chromie time is just a very bad solution for a way bigger problem overall.

[Lakrin]

There’s unfinished storylines in northern Eastern Kingdoms. There’s the Sunwell and Quelthalas, restoration of Plaguelands, and Gilneas. That particular cluster would benefit.

In fact, something like that would get someone like me, who isn't currently playing, interested in checking out the world again, because we're making progress on established stories and seeding new ones instead of feeling like we're fighting whatever they just pulled from their noses last. And make that doubly so if they managed to add evergreen content and reasons to continue to play in these zones from time to time (dynamic events of some sort, WQs, etc) after the expansion is over.

[Grimbold21]

Cata revamped all of EK and Kal. So it's not impossible, it's just not needed.

And I'm not against systems that are bad. I'm against an entire world revamp since we don't need it in the way cata did.

What I meant was that those zones were those where ultimately the max content happened.

I don't understand. You're not agaisnt bad quality content?

[tubbipack]

4gb pre-relesse download just started for me on the launcher

[Sondrelk]

You want nostalgia then play classic.

You don't need evergreen from old zones when you can keep adding new zones... And putting all those bells and whistles you described to them.

Why?..

Old zones can have cool stuff added to them too. Treehouses in Feralas, giant underground crypts in Silverpine, going deeper into Grim Batol, or an unused section of BlackRock Mountain.
Same with story. Botani in Feralas, Nelf resistnance in Hyjal, Dark Iron Dwarf rebels in Dun Morogh.

Old zones have just as much merit as entirely new zones in being interesting.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

since we don't need it in the way cata did.

Right, instead it needs to learn the lessons of Cataclysm.

The two biggest mistakes I can think of are

1. the Permanant-'Temporary'-Damages. The world still appears as if The Cataclysm/The Shattering happened only a mere month ago at most.

2. 90% of the content they worked on, because of the status of the gameplay in 2009, was only for levels 1-80.


It's a very different game today, so much so that point #2 simply won't be an issue. An ENTIRE World Revamp would be 1-60 AND 60+ because that's exactly what Chromie Time has allowed with Legion, BfA, and SL in 10.0

And point #1 is a deadringer for a woopsie that won't be repeated.

[Sondrelk]

Cata revamped all of EK and Kal. So it's not impossible, it's just not needed.

And I'm not against systems that are bad. I'm against an entire world revamp since we don't need it in the way cata did.

We need it more than Cata did, so you are correct there at least.

The game is in desperate need of an actual in-game exploration of what the world is like. A new player making a Dwarf would have no way of organically learning about them in-game, instead needing to infer based on the small snippets they see during the standard Exiles reach-BfA levelling.

The game needs levelling that concisely explains the basic stuff about each race, where they came from, what they are about, and where they are going.
Part of that is explaining the actual lore, part of it is showing a world where they are relevant.

[Lakrin]

We need it more than Cata did, so you are correct there at least.

The game is in desperate need of an actual in-game exploration of what the world is like. A new player making a Dwarf would have no way of organically learning about them in-game, instead needing to infer based on the small snippets they see during the standard Exiles reach-BfA levelling.

The game needs levelling that concisely explains the basic stuff about each race, where they came from, what they are about, and where they are going.
Part of that is explaining the actual lore, part of it is showing a world where they are relevant.

This reminds me, I read an interesting idea somewhere on the forums a while ago that suggested that each race gets a racial questline that would start out by introducing the major players and history/themes, etc, and then would branch into characters exploring how current/recent events are impacting their race specifically. I think a world revamp expansion would be a great place to start something like this, would promote racial identity for characters (because faction identity feels dead), and would be something that could be added on each patch (like a new chapter or so, etc).

[Vakir]

I think that's the problem. This wasn't an eulogy for Arthas, it was about closure for Sylvanas -which again, she was the only one that needed it-

And you can dislike that it wasn't *about* Arthas at the end, but it was clear that he was long gone as an actual character, so any words spoken would only be about what the living (well...) characters need for themselves.

Of course if you don't like Sylvanas you're not going to like this scene that is about her own ruminations, that's completely understandable. For better or worse, Arthas is just a prop here, a memory; and by function of it, the focus just really shouldn't be on him.

Nothing in my post indicates I wanted it to be a eulogy for Arthas. Arthas was already made lame as hell in Wrath and would be likely to be screwed over more under the present writing team. I think Uther and Jaina could've had a bit more of a say in their own processing in reference to the character, not necessarily Arthas himself. Having prior resolved arcs doesn't change the reality of seeing the actual dissolution of the soul of the human being before your very eyes. That'll fuck you up.

The manner in which they had Sylvanas monologuing remains my beef. Of course she should have resolution. Why shouldn't she? A trauma she more or less was defined by is sitting there in front of her and she has to contend with the fact that she became an equal abuser or worse in terms of numbers.

But I got flashbacks to amateur DMs monologuing with their favorite NPCs. It's an uninterrupted, almost exclusive spotlight from an overexposed character that tone-deafly gets on a high horse in the latter half. It would be that way regardless of preference.

Endemic of the narrative issues in general, really - it's a similar issue to having these cutscenes trigger seemingly independent to the canon status of the boss health without the raid group having much impact on the cutscene events at all. We're just along for a ride, an audience on a railroaded soap opera of the same 4-6 characters played out in 3D rendering.

As nice looking as these cutscenes tend to be, maybe if the kind of writing/editing they have at their disposal tends to exclude these kinds of things that people feel like should be present, dialogue and introspection heavy pieces are better suited without being conveyed by this in favor of it being for more kinetic action pieces.

It's a lot easier to give Laura Bailey and Michael Mcconnohie a booth to record another minute and a half of dialogue in the same scene than to detailedly render Uther and Jaina speaking with lipsync in a still headshot.

Hence why the first half is generally well received.

[Sondrelk]

This reminds me, I read an interesting idea somewhere on the forums a while ago that suggested that each race gets a racial questline that would start out by introducing the major players and history/themes, etc, and then would branch into characters exploring how current/recent events are impacting their race specifically. I think a world revamp expansion would be a great place to start something like this, would promote racial identity for characters (because faction identity feels dead), and would be something that could be added on each patch (like a new chapter or so, etc).

Might have been me. Been saying the game desperately needs dedicated questlines explaining each individual race.
Ab example being Forsaken being told about Arthas, the Scourge, Sylvanas, issues stemming from their affliction, the plot of BFA and SL, then some on what players should expect Forsaken storylines to be going forward.
Basically a sort of cheat sheet on what each race is about.

[Ersula]

This reminds me, I read an interesting idea somewhere on the forums a while ago that suggested that each race gets a racial questline that would start out by introducing the major players and history/themes, etc, and then would branch into characters exploring how current/recent events are impacting their race specifically. I think a world revamp expansion would be a great place to start something like this, would promote racial identity for characters (because faction identity feels dead), and would be something that could be added on each patch (like a new chapter or so, etc).

Many people have pointed out that the 9.0 leveling experience is good mechanically, it's bad narratively because it doesn't introduce relevant characters well.

But that's specifically why I think 10.0 will focus on existing Azeroth characters, with or without a new continent. It just feels more natural to make Kalimdor & EK the setting for that new story, than any new place. We don't know the major crisis of 10.0 yet but creating a new expansion set in existing places makes as much sense as putting it somewhere new when we've already been to space & the afterlife.

- - - Updated - - -

As nice looking as these cutscenes tend to be, maybe if the kind of writing/editing they have at their disposal tends to exclude these kinds of things that people feel like should be present, dialogue and introspection heavy pieces are better suited without being conveyed by this in favor of it being for more kinetic action pieces.

It's a lot easier to give Laura Bailey and Michael Mcconnohie a booth to record another minute and a half of dialogue in the same scene than to detailedly render Uther and Jaina speaking with lipsync in a still headshot.

Hence why the first half is generally well received.

At least 40% of the playerbase in 2022: "Who the fuck is Arthas?"

[Varx]

Look if a revamp happen, then great. All I know that if it happens then it'll just be cata 2.0 and healing the damage caused by the cataclysm.

However, the dragon isles will be where 10.0 takes place.

So again, like cata except the aren't new zones aren't spread out.

Anyone who think we won't get a new continent is legit delusional.

Also Tinkers but that's next level obvious.

[Vakir]

At least 40% of the playerbase in 2022: "Who the fuck is Arthas?"

This is delusional.

Also, I'm confused what it has to do with the quoted bit?

[Lakrin]

Might have been me. Been saying the game desperately needs dedicated questlines explaining each individual race.
Ab example being Forsaken being told about Arthas, the Scourge, Sylvanas, issues stemming from their affliction, the plot of BFA and SL, then some on what players should expect Forsaken storylines to be going forward.
Basically a sort of cheat sheet on what each race is about.

It may have been, the post way back when described how things like Heritage Armors could be folded into a system like this, how it would be easier to build up new characters for each race, and how it would make the capital cities all feel important, instead of just wanting to run circles in Oribos.

So if it was you, I think it's a great idea, and that along with a World Revamp, even in stages, would likely hook me back into the game. I find I'm willing to be less impressed with gameplay if I'm impressed with story/world/characters/lore.

[Harbour]

Do you think we will get at least a hint on whats next with next week's Zovaal's cinematic?

[Vakir]

Do you think we will get at least a hint on whats next with next week's Zovaal's cinematic?

Honestly? I'd have said yes when we thought it was the 2.5 minute one. Now? Way less confident.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Nothing in my post indicates I wanted it to be a eulogy for Arthas. Arthas was already made lame as hell in Wrath and would be likely to be screwed over more under the present writing team. I think Uther and Jaina could've had a bit more of a say in their own processing in reference to the character, not necessarily Arthas himself. Having prior resolved arcs doesn't change the reality of seeing the actual dissolution of the soul of the human being before your very eyes. That'll fuck you up.

The manner in which they had Sylvanas monologuing remains my beef. Of course she should have resolution. Why shouldn't she? A trauma she more or less was defined by is sitting there in front of her and she has to contend with the fact that she became an equal abuser or worse in terms of numbers.

But I got flashbacks to amateur DMs monologuing with their favorite NPCs. It's an uninterrupted, almost exclusive spotlight from an overexposed character that tone-deafly gets on a high horse in the latter half. It would be that way regardless of preference.

Endemic of the narrative issues in general, really - it's a similar issue to having these cutscenes trigger seemingly independent to the canon status of the boss health without the raid group having much impact on the cutscene events at all. We're just along for a ride, an audience on a railroaded soap opera of the same 4-6 characters played out in 3D rendering.

As nice looking as these cutscenes tend to be, maybe if the kind of writing/editing they have at their disposal tends to exclude these kinds of things that people feel like should be present, dialogue and introspection heavy pieces are better suited without being conveyed by this in favor of it being for more kinetic action pieces.

It's a lot easier to give Laura Bailey and Michael Mcconnohie a booth to record another minute and a half of dialogue in the same scene than to detailedly render Uther and Jaina speaking with lipsync in a still headshot.

Hence why the first half is generally well received.

What I am getting at is that having all the characters take a turn saying their final discharges to Arthas would have felt worse, because then it just makes it about Arthas. For sure I'd love to see more insight on a stay a while an listen, but it would totally re-frame the scene to be about Arthas, a character that hasn't been a character. I understand that focusing on Sylvanas would just turn some people off, but the scene was about her ultimately, and if you make it about all the people that had trauma with Arthas, then you *make* it about him.

The problem lies in Sylvanas perception; if they hadn't screwed her over, there just wouldn't be as much backlash -because of course there would always be people that would want this to be about Arthas- There's no way to skirt about it, Shadowlands is about Sylvanas arc, which of course will have mixed receptions given how controversial her character has been.

But making that scene less about Sylvanas wouldn't have made it better, because otherwise, it is an unnecessary scene.

[Sondrelk]

It may have been, the post way back when described how things like Heritage Armors could be folded into a system like this, how it would be easier to build up new characters for each race, and how it would make the capital cities all feel important, instead of just wanting to run circles in Oribos.

So if it was you, I think it's a great idea, and that along with a World Revamp, even in stages, would likely hook me back into the game. I find I'm willing to be less impressed with gameplay if I'm impressed with story/world/characters/lore.

If it was with heritage armor then it wasn't me.
My idea is basically just to make a new set of 10-50 levelling that explains all the races. We have Exiles Reach that explained some of what the basics of the Alliance and Horde are, but nothing to explain why Gnomes don't have a capital city, or what Orcs are talking about when they mention Draenor or being corrupted.

I think a set of 4-6 levelling zones per faction could probably get the basics of each individual race. Not enough to get in-depth, but enough that someone playing a human might feel compelled to level in Northrend to hear the rest of the story around Bolvar, or the details of how the Lich King was defeated.

[Ersula]

This is delusional.

Also, I'm confused what it has to do with the quoted bit?

I think the cutscene is short, but that's to be expected considering a.) players who don't raid might not even see it. And b.) If a player started sometime in the last 10 years theres a good chance they might not even know who Arthas is, so focusing a ton on him, suddenly, doesn't make much sense. He was the most important lore character 20 years ago, but not anymore. It's Star Wars needing to constantly bring back Darth Vader: It's cringe.