1. #26861
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Nothing in my post indicates I wanted it to be a eulogy for Arthas. Arthas was already made lame as hell in Wrath and would be likely to be screwed over more under the present writing team. I think Uther and Jaina could've had a bit more of a say in their own processing in reference to the character, not necessarily Arthas himself. Having prior resolved arcs doesn't change the reality of seeing the actual dissolution of the soul of the human being before your very eyes. That'll fuck you up.

    The manner in which they had Sylvanas monologuing remains my beef. Of course she should have resolution. Why shouldn't she? A trauma she more or less was defined by is sitting there in front of her and she has to contend with the fact that she became an equal abuser or worse in terms of numbers.

    But I got flashbacks to amateur DMs monologuing with their favorite NPCs. It's an uninterrupted, almost exclusive spotlight from an overexposed character that tone-deafly gets on a high horse in the latter half. It would be that way regardless of preference.

    Endemic of the narrative issues in general, really - it's a similar issue to having these cutscenes trigger seemingly independent to the canon status of the boss health without the raid group having much impact on the cutscene events at all. We're just along for a ride, an audience on a railroaded soap opera of the same 4-6 characters played out in 3D rendering.

    As nice looking as these cutscenes tend to be, maybe if the kind of writing/editing they have at their disposal tends to exclude these kinds of things that people feel like should be present, dialogue and introspection heavy pieces are better suited without being conveyed by this in favor of it being for more kinetic action pieces.

    It's a lot easier to give Laura Bailey and Michael Mcconnohie a booth to record another minute and a half of dialogue in the same scene than to detailedly render Uther and Jaina speaking with lipsync in a still headshot.

    Hence why the first half is generally well received.
    What I am getting at is that having all the characters take a turn saying their final discharges to Arthas would have felt worse, because then it just makes it about Arthas. For sure I'd love to see more insight on a stay a while an listen, but it would totally re-frame the scene to be about Arthas, a character that hasn't been a character. I understand that focusing on Sylvanas would just turn some people off, but the scene was about her ultimately, and if you make it about all the people that had trauma with Arthas, then you *make* it about him.

    The problem lies in Sylvanas perception; if they hadn't screwed her over, there just wouldn't be as much backlash -because of course there would always be people that would want this to be about Arthas- There's no way to skirt about it, Shadowlands is about Sylvanas arc, which of course will have mixed receptions given how controversial her character has been.

    But making that scene less about Sylvanas wouldn't have made it better, because otherwise, it is an unnecessary scene.

  2. #26862
    Quote Originally Posted by Lakrin View Post
    It may have been, the post way back when described how things like Heritage Armors could be folded into a system like this, how it would be easier to build up new characters for each race, and how it would make the capital cities all feel important, instead of just wanting to run circles in Oribos.

    So if it was you, I think it's a great idea, and that along with a World Revamp, even in stages, would likely hook me back into the game. I find I'm willing to be less impressed with gameplay if I'm impressed with story/world/characters/lore.
    If it was with heritage armor then it wasn't me.
    My idea is basically just to make a new set of 10-50 levelling that explains all the races. We have Exiles Reach that explained some of what the basics of the Alliance and Horde are, but nothing to explain why Gnomes don't have a capital city, or what Orcs are talking about when they mention Draenor or being corrupted.

    I think a set of 4-6 levelling zones per faction could probably get the basics of each individual race. Not enough to get in-depth, but enough that someone playing a human might feel compelled to level in Northrend to hear the rest of the story around Bolvar, or the details of how the Lich King was defeated.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #26863
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    This is delusional.

    Also, I'm confused what it has to do with the quoted bit?
    I think the cutscene is short, but that's to be expected considering a.) players who don't raid might not even see it. And b.) If a player started sometime in the last 10 years theres a good chance they might not even know who Arthas is, so focusing a ton on him, suddenly, doesn't make much sense. He was the most important lore character 20 years ago, but not anymore. It's Star Wars needing to constantly bring back Darth Vader: It's cringe.

  4. #26864
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    What I am getting at is that having all the characters take a turn saying their final discharges to Arthas would have felt worse, because then it just makes it about Arthas.
    Hard disagree. There is a way to make it about Jaina and Uther, who happen to have been affected by actions driven by said character, without the focus being him.

    Much in the same way it was done with Sylvanas, whose statement in the first half was done just fine processing herself and her actions who happened to be driven by said character...until the second half where it DID become about him and was a twisted eulogy anyway, arguably.

    It's a hack version of the "you're so much smaller than I remember" ending from Gerald's Game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    I think the cutscene is short, but that's to be expected considering a.) players who don't raid might not even see it. And b.) If a player started sometime in the last 10 years theres a good chance they might not even know who Arthas is, so focusing a ton on him, suddenly, doesn't make much sense. He was the most important lore character 20 years ago, but not anymore. It's Star Wars needing to constantly bring back Darth Vader: It's cringe.
    Again, it shouldn't be about Arthas, I am in agreement. I'm talking about characters affected by him processing their own shit in reference to said character. No different from how, for the first part of Syl's monologue, it is about her through the lens of history and its impact that happens to be at the hands of him.

    The raiding argument is weak regardless. Most major story beats exist in raids as the primary driving story and are accessible outside of them by design. LFR exists by nature to try and make it as accessible as possible to most people. It's why raid tiers are the base expectation for a major patch.

    Don't make critical story moments revolve around these cutscenes in the first place if that's the rationale.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2022-03-03 at 09:14 PM.

  5. #26865
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Hard disagree. There is a way to make it about Jaina and Uther, who happen to have been affected by actions driven by said character, without the focus being him.

    Much in the same way it was done with Sylvanas, whose statement in the first half was done just fine processing herself and her actions who happened to be driven by said character...until the second half where it DID become about him and was a twisted eulogy anyway, arguably.

    It's a hack version of the "you're so much smaller than I remember" ending from Gerald's Game.
    But my point is that if you make all the characters affected by his actions, you *will* make it about him and his impact on all of them. You really can't make them about Uther, Jaina and Sylvanas at the same time because the common denominator his him, it *becomes* about him.

    I would say that cutting her lasts lines might have worked, or at least, shortened to a "Begone then, Arthas Menethil, your legacy it's at an end" or something.

    I agree, it is a lesser version of the Gerald's Game scene, but adding two more people wouldn't have made it better, because the story was about Jessie, much as Shadowlands *is* about Sylvanas.
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2022-03-03 at 09:29 PM.

  6. #26866
    Quote Originally Posted by Harbour View Post
    Do you think we will get at least a hint on whats next with next week's Zovaal's cinematic?
    I don't think so, no.

  7. #26867
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    But my point is that if you make all the characters affected by his actions, you *will* make it about him and his impact on all of them. You really can't make them about Uther, Jaina and Sylvanas at the same time because the common denominator his him, it *becomes* about him.
    Why have Uther there at all if not to examine the commonality obviously? Jaina being present makes sense for the sake of her surrogate nephew (and even then, Sylvanas is the one who runs for him and seems to care the most in the moment), but the fact they've all had an impact from that character necessitates the fact that their trauma is equal importance, or else don't examine or mention it in the first place prior.

    It comes off as a gross fucking double standard that the "most" important character is the only important character when that has simply never been the case. Imagine if Illidan stole Velen's sigh and "The Burning Crusade...is over." Or if Varian said the lion's share of Taran Zhu's proclamation about how to handle Garrosh.

    would say that cutting her lasts lines might have worked, or at least, shortened to a "Begone then, Arthas Menethil, your legacy it's at an end" or something.

    I agree, it is a lesser version of the Gerald's Game scene, but adding two more people wouldn't have made it better, because the story was about Jessie, much as Shadowlands *is* about Sylvanas.
    Even saying that much is pushing it. Arthas and his legacy was already over in terms of his ability to continue to do direct harm. Either gloss over it if you don't want to give undue power, or give equal weight to anyone impacted. Otherwise it just looks like an indulgent fantasy to let Sylvanas be the sole mic drop because it is. Your main character is not the only character, and frankly Sylvanas' arc was introduced as the main...basically 30 minutes earlier in lore time.

    The difference is that, for example, the fucking rando judge and prosecutor in that scene aren't the same as two other important characters with significant history and baggage along the same lines.

    We didn't spend 2 hours with just Sylvanas tied to a bed, even if Danuser might have loved that.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2022-03-03 at 09:43 PM.

  8. #26868
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harbour View Post
    Do you think we will get at least a hint on whats next with next week's Zovaal's cinematic?
    It's possible. The Argus cinematic showed us the Sword and we knew immediately that'd be the next expansion's focus.

    Or it'll be like the N'Zoth cinematic and we'll just blast the Jailer and then move on.
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  9. #26869
    So next week's cinematic will basically tell us what to expect out of 10.0?

  10. #26870
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Or it'll be like the N'Zoth cinematic and we'll just blast the Jailer and then move on.
    After the immeasurable disappointment of the N'Zoth cinematic you would hope that Blizzard has learned a lesson and at least puts a bit more substance in The Jailer's last moments.

  11. #26871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    So next week's cinematic will basically tell us what to expect out of 10.0?
    Not likely. I imagine we're just going to see the Jailer go down and hear something about the Shadowlands being free.

    Though once we see it, I wouldn't be surprised if we start hearing 9.2.5 news or a date for the 10.0 announcement.

  12. #26872
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    So next week's cinematic will basically tell us what to expect out of 10.0?
    It's possible we'll get a few hints. It's hard to say because N'Zoth's didn't directly connect with Shadowlands but we already knew we were going to Shadowlands before it was released.

  13. #26873
    High Overlord uzira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    So next week's cinematic will basically tell us what to expect out of 10.0?
    Thats what i’m expecting. I’m sure the world soul Azeroth will be the main focus of this cinematic

  14. #26874
    Quote Originally Posted by ilgynoth View Post
    HAHAHAHA that Sylvanas part is AMAZING!
    They literally destroyed Arthas and everyone who said for the past 2 years that Arthas is the most iconic figure if WoW, which he is long time no more. Since BfA its Sylvanas and everyone was like "Noooooooooooo, its Arthas boohooo *bitchin*"
    Obviously Blizzard would never treat his most iconic character like a worthless poop cloud. Man they REALLY destroyed Arthas hahaha. damn. That was brutal. xd


    But the most hilarious part of this Cinematic was the moda fucking Sadfang. Like bro, we killed this peace of shit for good in BfA, litterally made him into a Trinket AND SOMEHOW!!! SOMEHOW this peace of shit comes back just to say one more fucking time "HONOR!!!!" BRAAA, thats overkilling a meme


    Anyway, it's funny to see some incels on different forums/reddits/tweets how they complain that they destroyed all the "masculin males" like arthas, garrosh and made them into dust shit, while Sylvanas will never face it. - YEAH BRO, lmao imagin comparing losers like garrosh or arthas to the LITERAL most iconic WoW Character
    Maybe Zovaal was right...

  15. #26875
    Remember that we wont get the Epilogue until 9.2.5 (most likely), so we might not know whats gonna happen yet.

  16. #26876
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasoka View Post
    So next week's cinematic will basically tell us what to expect out of 10.0?
    Doubt it, the Sargeras stabbing Azeroth cinematic didn't really give much information to predict BFA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It would be cool if Zovaal succeeds and dominates Azeroth. Back to the Emerald Dream to rescue her consciousness!

  17. #26877
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Remember that we wont get the Epilogue until 9.2.5 (most likely), so we might not know whats gonna happen yet.
    Depends if it is just hidden for now, or delayed until 9.2.5.
    Honestly since we saw glimpses in early 9.2 PTR of the final chapter regarding Sylvanas and Tyrande I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to scrap it and redo for 9.2.5 based on player opinion of Sylvanas.
    But that is like the B-plot leftover from previous expansions. The main SL conclusion is with this patch and defeating Jailer.
    9.2.5 might also end up working as a bridge patch
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  18. #26878
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Doubt it, the Sargeras stabbing Azeroth cinematic didn't really give much information to predict BFA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It would be cool if Zovaal succeeds and dominates Azeroth. Back to the Emerald Dream to rescue her consciousness!
    I can only imagine Azeroth waking up completely effed up; scarred body and infected blood pouring out of her woons; some blisters here and there; one eye sliding down from its socket.

  19. #26879
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    After the immeasurable disappointment of the N'Zoth cinematic you would hope that Blizzard has learned a lesson and at least puts a bit more substance in The Jailer's last moments.
    Historically they tend to leave us some kind of dangling thread. Garrosh not dying, Gul'dan being sent through the portal, the Sword.

    Really the only two modern expansions to not give us some kind of dangling thread were Cataclysm and BFA.
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  20. #26880
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    Historically they tend to leave us some kind of dangling thread. Garrosh not dying, Gul'dan being sent through the portal, the Sword.

    Really the only two modern expansions to not give us some kind of dangling thread were Cataclysm and BFA.
    Actually I would say that BfA patch 8.3 left us with the most monumental, albeit subtle, dangling thread.

    The question "Was all this shit I just went through a vision or real?"

    The answer is yet to be revealed...

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