Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Wangming]

How is Gul'dan and Palpatine funny? They're sadistic as fuck. Hell, Palpatine is legit Star Wars' Satan.

How is Palpatine funny? Every second line out of his mouth is a meme. He might be an irredeemable asshat, but he has character. And buildup. Even if you ignore the sequel trilogy, he was present in four movies before he was killed in RotJ.

We didn't even get a suggestion of the Janitor's existence till BfA. He has no buildup or personality. He was just pulled out of the shadows with claims to be the force behind every enemy ever and his stereotypical bland evilness.

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I don't think the Jailer is as bad as everyone memes about. The only issue I have with him is there is little to no build up, and they appear to be killing him off this expansion. If Blizzard was competent, they would have introduced the Jailer in something like the Chronicles, and build up his threat and influence over the course of several years.

No bruh if they were competent they would have introduced him right in the fucking game not a book that you have to buy to make sense of ingame lore.

Like here's an idea: Make the Twilight Hammer worship some unknown death god instead of the Old Gods. And slowly but surely over the course of every expansion they are in, feed us info about the Jailer. People would be eager to fight him now, not just scratching their heads about who this bozo is and why we should care about him.

[Varodoc]

It's pretty obvious that the Jailer's entire purpose is to serve as plot device for Sylvanas' redemption story. Without the Jailer they wouldn't know how to redeem Sylvanas. Now they know how. Just blame everything on the big blue janitor who has been mind-controlling Sylvanas/splitting Sylvanas' soul for years.

It's pretty obvious that Jailer was created solely to give Sylvanas a redemption story.

[Raetary]

There are ways to have morally bankrupt villains have depth.

He doesn't necessarily have to have psychological depth.
He just needs to be compelling.

People love Sauron and he was simply evil incarnate.
Most of us here enjoy Gul'dans character and he his whole stick was being power hungry.

As of right now, Zovaal is just a big bald man that appeared out of thin air without ever being even hinted at ever existing before, with no semblance of a personality whatsoever.

He isn't the great schemer that Blizz is telling us that he is.
He isn't this calculated and cunning evil.
He isn't this dread inducing darkness who's shadow is looming over us.

He's just a big bald man, with the most generic lines and voice they could've possibly given him, that appears on screen from time to time to remind us how ah-so-evil-and-powerful he is.

[Nightmare Queen]

How is Gul'dan and Palpatine funny? They're sadistic as fuck. Hell, Palpatine is legit Star Wars' Satan.

Yeah I just....I don't get it? At least Bwonsamdi is actually a funny 'Villian'. And the Jailor is just... awful

[Sondrelk]

Palpatine was interesting because while he was tied to Darth Vader, he was also a physically frail old man, which was immediately intriguing for someone so evil to look so frail and still command such respect. He also showed a personality of delighting in being evil, when he tells Luke of what he thinks is his friends death you can hear his smug satisfaction of being the unquestioned tyrant of the universe.
However most importantly, when he was introduced and until,, he was killed there was only a single movie. 2 hours is a reasonable amount of time to spend on such shallow character. And when the prequels came around and he was needed for more screentime they expanded on his character to be more interesting to watch.

Compare this to the Jailer whose main characteristics beyond the baseline level of villain angger at our antics is a brief moment where he is shocked we are able to escape.
They could have made him childish, or arrogant. They could have had him hound the player relentlessly or showed him as aloof in not giving us the time of day. What they did do however was nothing. The Jailer just stands around being a villain with none of the buildup necessary for him to be taken as seriously as the story needs us to.

And yes, this is only the initial patch and there is likely time to develop him further, but why waste valuable time at this point. As I have mentioned in previously: We don't even know what his plan actually is, or what it means for us. We don't know what it means if he escapes, or how he was bound there to begin with. We don't know if his minions are subjugated souls, automatons or if they are all evil souls sent to the Maw normally that are following him freely.
We don't know the first thing about the Jailer except that he is supposedly THE villain behind Arthas and Sylvanas and what have you, and that is boring.

[Raetary]

"just an unknown" is a perfect way to describe the blandness of the Janitors character.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I agree with the Jailer criticisms. He is so boring, I have no clue who he is or where he came from, and we don't know what he wants. Frankly at this point I don't care. I do remember a line from one of his agents in the prequel, about how he is coming for the soul of our world, so I am sure the plot is leading to an invasion of Azeroth (or like 3 zones because small Indie company) and something something Azeroth is super special I want her power something something.

He flat out states he comes for the soul of our world, pretty fucking obvious he wants the world soul for himself and use its massive power for Death. Its a pretty easy thing to understand. Thats been his motivation since the start, its clear. He also hates that his own kin(Eternals) imprisoned him. You may not be paying attention.

[TheFirstOnes]

"just an unknown" is a perfect way to describe the blandness of the Janitors character.

Almost like every villain was unknown until they weren’t.

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He flat out states he comes for the soul of our world, pretty fucking obvious he wants the world soul for himself and use its massive power for Death. Its a pretty easy thing to understand. Thats been his motivation since the start, its clear. He also hates that his own kin(Eternals) imprisoned him. You may not be paying attention.

His goal is to conquer all existence. His sole purpose isn’t the world soul alone, tf?

[Makabreska]

Also, LOL at claiming that Anduin is more complex than Cersei, you're certainly funnier than the Janitor.



I don't.

Ahahahaha ok man. Constant glorifying of Void Elves and waifu Alleria never happened.

[therumblings]

No bruh if they were competent they would have introduced him right in the fucking game not a book that you have to buy to make sense of ingame lore.

I mean, I guess that would have been ideal, but realistically, the chronicle books had no reason to not include him. The only reason why he wasn't in it is because he was asspulled during BFA. Considering every book is going to be "from X's POV" from now on, the new Shadowlands books coming out are just retcons waiting to happen.

[Varodoc]

Ahahahaha ok man. Constant glorifying of Void Elves and waifu Alleria never happened.

You do realize that the Void Lords are their enemies, right?

Also you can't glorify that which is already glorious by itself.

[therumblings]

Speaking of Void Elves, they remind me of the Jailer in terms of asspulliness.

Both are cool concepts that were pulled from thin air, and had no time to develop properly or naturally.

Though I'd say Void Elves are the worst of the two, since at least the Jailer fits in with the current lore better than sudden thalassian Alleria stans.

[Makabreska]

You do realize that the Void Lords are their enemies, right?

Also you can't glorify that which is already glorious by itself.

Case and point.

[Wangming]

Considering every book is going to be "from X's POV" from now on, the new Shadowlands books coming out are just retcons waiting to happen.

Untill 10.0 or 11.0 retcons those away.

[therumblings]

Untill 10.0 or 11.0 retcons those away.

At this point I am just expecting blizzard to make lore changes and retcons, almost like hotfixes, where every week they just change or tweak something.

[Varodoc]

Speaking of Void Elves, they remind me of the Jailer in terms of asspulliness.

Both are cool concepts that were pulled from thin air, and had no time to develop properly or naturally.

Though I'd say Void Elves are the worst of the two, since at least the Jailer fits in with the current lore better than sudden thalassian Alleria stans.

You're comparing an entire race to one character, that's a false equivalency. The two major Void elf characters are way more psychologically complex than the Jailer. Magister Umbric was introduced at the end of Legion but is very nuanced.

The Jailer doesn't even have a character aside from "OMG BOUNDLESS REALITY INVADER!!"

[therumblings]

You're comparing an entire race to one character, that's a false equivalency. The two major Void elf characters are way more psychologically complex than the Jailer. Magister Umbric was introduced at the end of Legion but is very nuanced.

The Jailer doesn't even have a character aside from "OMG BOUNDLESS REALITY INVADER!!"

I'm not comparing their complexity. I am comparing how much of an asspull they are. Void Elves were pulled out of thin air to please High Elf fans, and for equality since Horde got Nightborne. While the Jailer was also pulled out of thin air, for Sylvanas. I argue the Jailer fits into the overall story much better than random elves studying the void at the same time Alleria was, and coincidentally meeting up.

Also, Umbric has hardly any character other than "Alleria's Sidekick" who helped the Alliance resurrect some dinos and kill some goblins. How is that any more impressive than the Jailer? Who is Sylvanas' boss who helped her with his Mawsworn army and steal some sigils.

[Varodoc]

I'm not comparing their complexity. I am comparing how much of an asspull they are. Void Elves were pulled out of thin air to please High Elf fans, and for equality since Horde got Nightborne. I argue the Jailer fits into the overall story much better than random elves studying the void at the same time Alleria was, and coincidentally meeting up.

That's a silly argument because you can still be complex while being an "asspull" (every fictional story was pulled out of someone's ass by the way), the Jailer is just a plot device with no ulterior purpose but to permit a Sylvanas redemption story.

I argue the Jailer fits into the overall story much better

It's easy to fit into the story when they retcon half of the established lore for you.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

He doesn't necessarily have to have psychological depth.
He just needs to be compelling.

People love Sauron and he was simply evil incarnate.
Most of us here enjoy Gul'dans character and he his whole stick was being power hungry.

As of right now, Zovaal is just a big bald man that appeared out of thin air without ever being even hinted at ever existing before, with no semblance of a personality whatsoever.

He isn't the great schemer that Blizz is telling us that he is.
He isn't this calculated and cunning evil.
He isn't this dread inducing darkness who's shadow is looming over us.

He's just a big bald man, with the most generic lines and voice they could've possibly given him, that appears on screen from time to time to remind us how ah-so-evil-and-powerful he is.

Case in point, a list of just evil guys that you wanted to see more of because of their personalities and presentation:

Palpatine
Darth Vader
Joker
Bane
Pretty much any other Batman villain, really
Scar
Ursula
Hannibal Lector
Voldemort
Gul'dan
Doctor Doom


There's really no excuse for the Jailer being such a bland pos that he is.

[therumblings]

That's a silly argument because you can still be complex while being an "asspull" (every fictional story was pulled out of someone's ass by the way), the Jailer is just a plot device with no ulterior purpose but to permit a Sylvanas redemption story.

Like I said, I wasn't arguing complexity. I just think both are asspull examples.

The Jailer was created to fit into Edge of Night in order to add to Sylvanas' story, Void Elves were created to balance out Nightborne and please High Elf stans.

It's easy to fit into the story when they retcon half of the established lore for you.

Well it is Blizzard we're talking about here, everything we are talking about right now, could be noncanon in a year. Consistency is not a Blizzard thing.