Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Alanar]

You know, I love when stories keep setting up new mysteries, but it's frustrating when they do that without also providing satisfying answers.

That is wow for you.

[Jokubas]

You know, this ending sort of re-vindicates the feeling that the Archon is a horrible person.

I mean, the upside about Zovaal's secretly well-meaning plan is that it at least isn't meant to guilt us. His solution was still deadly to everyone, so it's a bit like Sargeras in that while he wanted to stop something worse, his methods were scorched-earth and he's still bad.

Still, he was doing all this because of something worse out there, so what do his siblings do? Lock him away and then pretend it's all fine? They don't work toward stopping this threat in their own way? They don't warn anyone about this threat? So the Archon knows there's some horrible threat out there, locks away the only person who's trying to do something about it, doesn't do anything about it herself, knowingly throws innocent people into the Maw because it's "the Path", then helps put down the person trying to do something about the threat still without telling anyone about it. That's not a positive character profile right there.

I also just thought of something else. I was already annoyed enough that when Zovaal got his power back, he turned into evil armor super Lich King man, which is presumably not what he used to look like back when he was the Arbiter, despite that presumably being the form he was regaining. Just in general, though, if Zovaal thinks he's doing this all to make a new reality that isn't flawed in a way that lets in this threat, why is he so obsessed with looking evil?

I mean, the answer seems to be that Blizzard hates visual contrast. If a character is evil, they look evil, if they're good, they look good. If they look evil, they become evil, even if they're supposed to be good. The Forsaken should be the innocent victims of the Scourge, but they love to live in plagued sludge and conspire to restart Scourge projects. Zovaal sees himself as a hero saving reality from a flawed design, yet he dresses in the symbolic skulls of his victims. It would have been so much more interesting, and so much more consistent, if Zovaal looked heroic, and that was used to help disguise his sinister methods.

[Pheraz]

Also I don't understand why they wanted to do the Shadowlands so badly as a theme. They really tried but weren't there any better expansion concepts after BFA? Like Sylvanas harnessing the power of death to make everyone undead on azeroth. Frustrated Sylvanas, as annoying as she might be, would have been a better end boss.

[Grimbold21]

So I’m really curious; After Shadowlands, who here would be for another cosmic expansion in 10.0 where we go to another dimension/planet and fight another cosmic big bad?


Also did the soul forge actually damage/weaken Azeroth?

That would be a resounding no. If they're gonna play 4 chess games, at least keep it on the ground, and avoid screwing up the entire known azerothian universe.

[username993720]

Like I said.. the ED threat that was looming has been dealt with. Idk what else we would need to do there. Being opposit force is all dandy, but outside some green dragon shenenigens and some callbacks, I dont see the point in an full blown thing. What do you want to do in the ED?

Did you know about the threat of the Jailer and the Mawsworn, Denathrius and the Dreadlords, Vyraz and the necrolords, and the Drust back in WotlK? Yea...

If you can't see beyond what currently exists, then i deem you narrow-minded.

[ChairmanKaga]

That would be a resounding no. If they're gonna play 4 chess games, at least keep it on the ground, and avoid screwing up the entire known azerothian universe.

Maybe it's just frustration with the story but I kinda want Azeroth to get irreparably damaged.

[Sondrelk]

Also I don't understand why they wanted to do the Shadowlands so badly as a theme. They really tried but weren't there any better expansion concepts after BFA? Like Sylvanas harnessing the power of death to make everyone undead on azeroth. Frustrated Sylvanas, as annoying as she might be, would have been a better end boss.

The only thing I can imagine is someone desperately wanting something where Sylvanas could be the main character, to a similar extent to how Illidan was the main character of Legion.
And since death is a fairly obvious theme, to explore that theme with as much bombast as possible, essentially making WotLK on crack in terms of visuals.

[Ansi]

Surprisingly underwhelming

[Nebron]

I'm still baffled that they tried to establish Zovaal as the force behind Arthas and Sargeras. It's hilarious when you think about it.

I really can't get my head around what's happening in the most recent years in WoW. Obviously Danuser is not the only person responsible for that disaster, but hey, if there are more people on board, how in the world they come up with that crap? It's absolutely mind-boggling that it's fan-fiction quality level of writing.
Shadowlands are indeed a crown jewel in that 3-expansion-long story arc. Character development is absolutely dead. Anduind - first a prisoner, later a pawn. Sylvanas who eventually happened to be a pawn all along, with some existential coaching about the nature of life and freedom. Jailer, clearly a villian created ad hoc.

Ion admitted that 9.2 was planned to be a finale from the beginning. It'd be much wiser in terms of marketing to say that this crap is a result of content-cutting, so it wouldn't become clear that they came up with that bullshit from the beginning.

Literally, within 3 expansion the entire WoW universe has been flipped upside down, and there's only one way to go - down. Retcon over a retcon, or even worse - retcon OF a retcon. Not that Warcraft story has ever been original - in fact, majority of WoW story is 'inspired' by other sources, but at least they managed to do that well.
Now they clearly wish to go into a cosmic direction, Silmarillion-alike stuff, and based on the recent stories, they are absolutely incapable of that. It's not a good omen for the future of Warcraft franchise.

[Kiivar86]

Let's discuss the fact that the Jailer turned out being just a robot.

We basically already knew that though? The whole proto-pantheon thing. And Zereth Mortis filled with robotic constructs.

[Alanar]

Did you know about the threat of the Jailer and the Mawsworn, Denathrius and the Dreadlords, Vyraz and the necrolords, and the Drust back in WotlK? Yea...

If you can't see beyond what currently exists, then i deem you narrow-minded.

Sure they can make up things out of thin air we saw that.. is that good story telling and was it received well? debatable. If we were to visit the dream, especially the dream as we have been there before. I feel like we could visit it in the form of a scenario, maybe built something up like you said. Which would require some time to build it up imo or else I wouldn't even care.. as it would feel meaningless.

It's sad you are quick to judge, when I am always the person who needs to say, where is your imagination. Ofc they could come up with 6 new random zones in the dream, but for what purpose? Like I said the real threat that was in there was dealt with in Legion. Throwing us some random new threat in there without any build up seems like a really bland and bad idea.

So again, what do you want to do in the dream? what is so special that you want to make it a full blown thing?

[Pheraz]

The only thing I can imagine is someone desperately wanting something where Sylvanas could be the main character, to a similar extent to how Illidan was the main character of Legion.
And since death is a fairly obvious theme, to explore that theme with as much bombast as possible, essentially making WotLK on crack in terms of visuals.

Okay that's an idea... I wouldn't be so annoyed if they wouldn't do that cliff hangers all the time where they tell us that "if we only knew the truth". That's a really annoying way of telling a story. I hope they stop this

[username993720]

Sure they can make up things out of thin air we saw that.. is that good story telling? nah. If we were to visit the dream, especially the dream as we have been there before. I feel like we could visit it in the form of a scenario, maybe built something up like you said. Which would require some time to build it up imo. Or else I wouldn't even care.. I don't want a repeat of SL.

It's sad you are quick to judge, when I am always the person who needs to say, where is your imagination. Ofc they could come up with 6 new random zones in the dream, but for what purpose? Like I said the real threat that was in there was dealt with in Legion. Throwing us some random new threat in there without any build up seems like a really bland and bad idea.

So again, what do you want to do in the dream? what is so special that you want to make it a full blown thing?

There doesn't need to be a cheesy big bad like we had in Shadowlands.
Secondly, the concept of dreaming is worth exploring.

[Jokubas]

I'm still baffled that they tried to establish Zovaal as the force behind Arthas and Sargeras. It's hilarious when you think about it.

What makes it even worse is that Sargeras and Zovaal are basically the same character now. Both of them were heroic godlike beings who became aware of some horrible, reality-wrecking threat, and decided that the only way to preserve existence was to destroy everything before this threat could take over. Then their siblings didn't like their plan and tried to put them down.

So why did Zovaal trick Sargeras' forces into contributing to his plan, instead of just recruiting Sargeras since they were both on the same page? This is the foundation-cracking issue with any "secretly well-intentioned villain" plot: communication. Also, why are so many actually heroic characters trying to put these characters down and then walking away, instead of coming up with their own alternate plan of stopping this threat? Do they not believe their old friends that these threats exist? It just makes all of the characters, both heroes and villains, look like fools.

[Alanar]

There doesn't need to be a cheesy big bad like we had in Shadowlands.
Secondly, the concept of dreaming is worth exploring.

Says you, but what do you want to explore? You are being real vague. Like I said the threat that was brewing in the dream over the years is been dealt with. The charm is kinda gone, just like the black empire for example.. we have been there going there a second time is just not as exciting.

I am not into the circle conversation, be clear please as I still don't see any reason or motivation for me to dive back into the dream?

No one is talking about a cheesy boss, but it would help if you anwsered the question..

[KOUNTERPARTS]

So that quest with the dreadlords saying that it was Argus' soul intended to be put into the Arbiter's shell... it was Argus' soul that fucked up the Arbiter to begin with? Is that confirmed now?

[TheFirstOnes]

Well hey...

At least WE killed Zovaal...and not Sylvanas...

[username993720]

Says you, but what do you want to explore? You are being real vague.

I am not into the circle conversation, be clear please as I still don't see any reason or motivation for me to dive back into the dream?

No one is talking about a cheesy boss, but it would help if you anwsered the question..

The different dreamstates like the different realms of death?
Take my concept for example:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ream-Expansion

[Sondrelk]

What makes it even worse is that Sargeras and Zovaal are basically the same character now. Both of them were heroic godlike beings who became aware of some horrible, reality-wrecking threat, and decided that the only way to preserve existence was to destroy everything before this threat could take over. Then their siblings didn't like their plan and tried to put them down.

So why did Zovaal trick Sargeras' forces into contributing to his plan, instead of just recruiting Sargeras since they were both on the same page? This is the foundation-cracking issue with any "secretly well-intentioned villain" plot: communication. Also, why are so many actually heroic characters trying to put these characters down and then walking away, instead of coming up with their own alternate plan of stopping this threat? Do they not believe their old friends that these threats exist? It just makes all of the characters, both heroes and villains, look like fools.

I am more annoyed with how they redid the extremist angle they used for Sargeras, but didn't even put in the effort to really sell it.

Sargeras being stopped by the Pantheon made sense. He had a crisis of faith and decided to be pragmatic with an option the other titans vehemently opposed. But for Zovaal all we know is that he wanted to go to the Sepulcher. Not why he wanted to go, what he expected to find, or what specific actions he took that labeled him an extremist. Just vaguely wanting to go somewhere and suddenly he has been overthrown with the actual motivations and actions being left to the imagination.

[Pheraz]

BFA theme was so much better. Sad that the poor azerite gear system totally overshadowed this.
Maybe the WoW team is also glad that SL is over. In the end this was maybe the worst time for them.
ZM is still a cool zone
41 days to go, woop woop