1. #27901
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Says you, but what do you want to explore? You are being real vague.

    I am not into the circle conversation, be clear please as I still don't see any reason or motivation for me to dive back into the dream?

    No one is talking about a cheesy boss, but it would help if you anwsered the question..
    The different dreamstates like the different realms of death?
    Take my concept for example:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ream-Expansion

  2. #27902
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    What makes it even worse is that Sargeras and Zovaal are basically the same character now. Both of them were heroic godlike beings who became aware of some horrible, reality-wrecking threat, and decided that the only way to preserve existence was to destroy everything before this threat could take over. Then their siblings didn't like their plan and tried to put them down.

    So why did Zovaal trick Sargeras' forces into contributing to his plan, instead of just recruiting Sargeras since they were both on the same page? This is the foundation-cracking issue with any "secretly well-intentioned villain" plot: communication. Also, why are so many actually heroic characters trying to put these characters down and then walking away, instead of coming up with their own alternate plan of stopping this threat? Do they not believe their old friends that these threats exist? It just makes all of the characters, both heroes and villains, look like fools.
    I am more annoyed with how they redid the extremist angle they used for Sargeras, but didn't even put in the effort to really sell it.

    Sargeras being stopped by the Pantheon made sense. He had a crisis of faith and decided to be pragmatic with an option the other titans vehemently opposed. But for Zovaal all we know is that he wanted to go to the Sepulcher. Not why he wanted to go, what he expected to find, or what specific actions he took that labeled him an extremist. Just vaguely wanting to go somewhere and suddenly he has been overthrown with the actual motivations and actions being left to the imagination.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #27903
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    BFA theme was so much better. Sad that the poor azerite gear system totally overshadowed this.
    Maybe the WoW team is also glad that SL is over. In the end this was maybe the worst time for them.
    ZM is still a cool zone
    41 days to go, woop woop
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  4. #27904
    Shadowlands is a filler expansion. They recycled Sargeras motivations and the Titan's lore and ruined the coherency of the established lore.

    I think Blizzard only had a draft of what they wanted with the Death realm but didn't commit enough with any idea. It is sad because Blizzard games is telling the same story again and again:

    - We allied against an authority figure who wants to do "good" without explanation
    - We discover we (mortals) are special and unbeatable.
    - We decide to fight against each other until the next authority figure wants to change us again.
    - Repeat the same formula.

    Next, we are going to find out the Light and Void Lords are the true creators of the multiverse, and they were indeed the first ones before separating in 2. We will forgive the Void because flaws are necessary for evolution and growth.

    The End
    Last edited by KainneAbsolute; 2022-03-08 at 09:13 PM.

  5. #27905
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    What makes it even worse is that Sargeras and Zovaal are basically the same character now. Both of them were heroic godlike beings who became aware of some horrible, reality-wrecking threat, and decided that the only way to preserve existence was to destroy everything before this threat could take over. Then their siblings didn't like their plan and tried to put them down.

    So why did Zovaal trick Sargeras' forces into contributing to his plan, instead of just recruiting Sargeras since they were both on the same page? This is the foundation-cracking issue with any "secretly well-intentioned villain" plot: communication. Also, why are so many actually heroic characters trying to put these characters down and then walking away, instead of coming up with their own alternate plan of stopping this threat? Do they not believe their old friends that these threats exist? It just makes all of the characters, both heroes and villains, look like fools.
    They weren't on the same page at all. Sargeras was terrified of the void winning and wanted to wipe out life, in particular world souls, to prevent the Void from getting a foothold and manifesting in reality. The Jailer wants to remake existence as an authoritarian system where he is in control of the entire universe.

    If anything, the Jailer's parallel here is the Void, because he and the Void are both trying to do the same thing and surmount the other cosmic forces to take over everything. Where Sargeras was basically trying to ineffectively maintain the status quo of cosmic balance, like the other Eternal Ones, but by removing the vulnerability of unborn world souls. Which in fact, is exactly what the Jailer, like the Void, attempted to use in order to tip the balance and take over.

    The Jailer literally attempted to replicate the Void's Old God strat, but by using First Ones' tech to cut out the middle man.

  6. #27906
    Warchief Catastrophy349's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    LOL I was just waiting for you, Hitei and Aeluron stepping into this thread and telling us what a masterpiece this cinematic is. It's outright terrible. There is nothing good about this.
    I think both cinematics were good. Not great, but good.

  7. #27907
    Stood in the Fire Dragon ANX's Avatar
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    Intro cinematic was cool, but the finale was very very underwhelming.
    -------
    Btw the last scene shows the veil above ICC closing, could this mean that they could explore something like "we are stuck here until we figure a way back" ?

  8. #27908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansi View Post
    Surprisingly underwhelming
    Was it really that surprising? Lol.


    Same quality as the rest of the expansion, not terrible, but not very exciting or innovative at all.
    Honorary member of the Baine Fanclub, the only member really.

  9. #27909
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    The different dreamstates like the different realms of death?
    Take my concept for example:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ream-Expansion
    Sorry edited my last post. Anyway that applies to this as well.

    The charm is kinda gone, just like the black empire for example.. we have been there and going there a second time is just not as exciting.

    Like I said I could see the dream play a pivitol role with the green dragons with the whole dragon isle thing, but going there again, but with new zones out of the blue just wouldn't interest me much. Sure anything is possible, but for me the emerald dream as we know it and how we all speculated for years. All the things linked to it, were solved or fixed for the most part. The thing is.. it could have the most bizarre ideas and awesome zone disign and really cool new characters, but the problem is it would still all feel like they were made up yesterday. It was something I had and many others as critique for Sl. Even some familiar faces didn't really help.

    Do I see us entering again? sure! A full blown expansion entirely on the emerald dream, when the story there is kinda over, we have been there before and would need something completely new(your concept as example) idk man, not entirely sure on that one.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-03-08 at 09:15 PM.

  10. #27910
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon ANX View Post
    Intro cinematic was cool, but the finale was very very underwhelming.
    -------
    Btw the last scene shows the veil above ICC closing, could this mean that they could explore something like "we are stuck here until we figure a way back" ?
    Probably not. It's already been established that leaving the Shadowlands isn't particularly difficult.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #27911
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    They weren't on the same page at all. Sargeras was terrified of the void winning and wanted to wipe out life, in particular world souls, to prevent the Void from getting a foothold and manifesting in reality. The Jailer wants to remake existence as an authoritarian system where he is in control of the entire universe.

    If anything, the Jailer's parallel here is the Void, because he and the Void are both trying to do the same thing and surmount the other cosmic forces to take over everything. Where Sargeras was basically trying to ineffectively maintain the status quo of cosmic balance, like the other Eternal Ones, but by removing the vulnerability of unborn world souls. Which in fact, is exactly what the Jailer, like the Void, attempted to use in order to tip the balance and take over.

    The Jailer literally attempted to replicate the Void's Old God strat, but by using First Ones' tech to cut out the middle man.
    Sargeras also wants to recreate the Universe without the flaw of the Void. Sargeras doesn't want to maintain the status quo.

  12. #27912
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon ANX View Post
    Intro cinematic was cool, but the finale was very very underwhelming.
    -------
    Btw the last scene shows the veil above ICC closing, could this mean that they could explore something like "we are stuck here until we figure a way back" ?
    It could be interesting to explore something like traveling to one of the places the sepulcher is connected to and find a way back to azeroth from there. But its heavily implied by blizzard that we go back to azeroth in 10.0 and also it has been established that its not uncommon for some beings to leave the shadowlands even before the veil was broken.

  13. #27913
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon ANX View Post
    Intro cinematic was cool, but the finale was very very underwhelming.
    -------
    Btw the last scene shows the veil above ICC closing, could this mean that they could explore something like "we are stuck here until we figure a way back" ?
    It'll probably be solved in the .5 patch. And also since the whole helm of domination is made into that crown of the arbiter's, likely will allow passage.

  14. #27914
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    inb4 "first time?" meme but now with Sargeras and Zovaal.

  15. #27915
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    N'zoth was killed to build up the Jailer, and now the Jailer is killed to no longer have to deal with him.
    Was N‘zoth killed to build up the Jailer? I think that’s exactly what did not happen. If N‘zoth would have lead to the Jailer it wouldn’t be a problem, but it was Sylvanas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    All I can hope for is that Empire of Dragons is real and Xal’alath comes in and wrecks shit with her void-powered dragon slaves in honor of Nzoth.
    Yeah. Just something… relatable yet surprising. And something with more personality and back story than the flop the entire Shadowland‘s plot was.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  16. #27916
    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    I think both cinematics were good. Not great, but good.
    The cinematic is boring, but so are the majority of end-expansion cinematics.

    Legion was good because they destroyed an entire zone to give it impact and a lasting mark (though even then, people at the time whined about it, how it didn't make sense Sargeras was just hanging around waiting, how he got beaten by a laser beam without in 10 seconds, how Illidan arbitrarily decided to exile himself as a guard like he'd be able to do anything if Sargeras overpowered the entire pantheon again, etc.).

    Wrath was good, but it also had the benefit on banking on an entire other game's storyline. (people still complained about the whole "there must always be a lich king" thing though).

    But compared to the other ones, SL's is pretty standard, or genuinely better than average.

    Cata's was Thrall's dumb "the Cataclysm is over!" and the Aspects losing their power. It literally took the time, AFTER BEATING DEATHWING to go "lol, by the way, Thrall and Aggra are going to have a baby!"

    MoP's was the massively underwhelming "No, we're not gonna kill Garrosh, he's going to trial for some reason despite everyone in the room knowing a shit ton of horrible things he openly did", followed by Varian deciding that the only blowback the Horde was gonna get was a warning (that never went anywhere).

    WoD's was Gul'dan getting thrown through a portal and "DRAENOR IS FREE!"

    We don't even need to talk about N'zoth.


    So while SL's is boring. I'm not going to pretend it's some unforgivable travesty. It's greater than or equal to 4 of the other 6 raid finale cinematics.

    Quote Originally Posted by KainneAbsolute View Post
    Sargeras also wants to recreate the Universe without the flaw of the Void. Sargeras doesn't want to maintain the status quo.
    Source? His plan involved resetting existence by killing all the world souls and most life and hoping that life would come back with less capability for void incursion, not recreating the universe without the void's existence. In his hypothetical, the void is still there exactly as it is now, he's just trying to brick up the doorway so that everything stays as is.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2022-03-08 at 09:30 PM.

  17. #27917
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    What makes it even worse is that Sargeras and Zovaal are basically the same character now. Both of them were heroic godlike beings who became aware of some horrible, reality-wrecking threat, and decided that the only way to preserve existence was to destroy everything before this threat could take over. Then their siblings didn't like their plan and tried to put them down.

    So why did Zovaal trick Sargeras' forces into contributing to his plan, instead of just recruiting Sargeras since they were both on the same page? This is the foundation-cracking issue with any "secretly well-intentioned villain" plot: communication. Also, why are so many actually heroic characters trying to put these characters down and then walking away, instead of coming up with their own alternate plan of stopping this threat? Do they not believe their old friends that these threats exist? It just makes all of the characters, both heroes and villains, look like fools.
    I mean the Jailer is to Sargeras what the First Ones are to the Titans. Pointless. Neither did we need a bigger bad that’s behind Sargeras nor bigger creators than the Titans.

    It all makes zero sense. By making Zovaal a carbon copy of Sargeras they just trashed the entire Warcraft lore to this point. The good thing is we can completely ignore or leave out Shadowlands‘ lore and we’d miss nothing in the bigger picture. Quite a feat, isn’t it? Even WoD was more impactful.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  18. #27918
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon ANX View Post
    Intro cinematic was cool, but the finale was very very underwhelming.
    -------
    Btw the last scene shows the veil above ICC closing, could this mean that they could explore something like "we are stuck here until we figure a way back" ?
    No, the very first quests you do once you enter Oribos makes you establish portals to Org/SW.
    We can come and go as we please.

    Not to mention that the footage we saw from the epilogue quests had a few characters in it that didn't enter the Shadowlands with us at the beginning.

    They are never going to make us be stuck in a place for more than a questline or scenario.
    Even in WoD Khadgar immediately opened portals to the capitals when we set up camp.
    Last edited by Raetary; 2022-03-08 at 09:33 PM.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  19. #27919
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon ANX View Post
    Intro cinematic was cool, but the finale was very very underwhelming.
    -------
    Btw the last scene shows the veil above ICC closing, could this mean that they could explore something like "we are stuck here until we figure a way back" ?
    They sure could. It opens the door to "we don't find a way back for X years."

    I doubt they play that card given how haphazard that closure felt, but the card is in their hand now.
    FFXIV - Maduin (Dynamis DC)

  20. #27920
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    No, the very first quests you do once you enter Oribos makes you establish portals to Org/SW.
    We can come and go as we please.
    That doesn't really answer the question. Will those still work with the veil re-closed? Though i imagine the Nekrolords and Kyrians could get us out of the Shadowlands, but will they bring us to the right point in space-time?

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