1. #28161
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I suppose I see what you mean. On a cosmic level, it is very different than it would be on a planetary level. It also feels superfluous that the Pantheons are themselves a sequence of machines, as opposed to a Pantheon building sequences of machines. It seems like it's at least not a problem for the Titans, but I do feel like they and the First Ones still feel very redundant. Perhaps an evolution on the preexisting Pantheon could have been interesting, or a preceding Pantheon akin to the original Greek Titans relative to the Greek Gods as predecessors specifically to the Titans would've been more interesting.
    I 100% agree, the whole thing is redundant as hell... but eh, that's what we get for poorly-executed retcon.

  2. #28162
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    Wonder if Titan bodies are made despite Chronicle describing them as immensely large. WoW has a tendency to downscale cosmic doodads to accommodate the player.
    They were supposed to be literal humanoid planets, but now it seems they're more likely puppets crafted in Zereth Ordinis just like the Eternal Ones are.
    Last edited by Lahis; 2022-03-09 at 08:01 PM.

  3. #28163
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    People calling WoD good lmao.

    This thread has jumped the shark.
    WoD was shit, but it didn't make me quit in less than three weeks.

    SL is the shit that is below shit.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  4. #28164
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    In Zereth Mortis one of the vaults has Automa/Plant hybrids that werent made but evolved on their own. The Jiro are gonna study what happens with them as opposed to like reoriginating them.
    That could be foreshadowing how Zereth Vitae produces life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    So elune could be different from just being a construct. It could also be why WQ seems to have a complicated relationship with her. If she's like "deviated" from her design it all that would make sense.

    Theres also the really obvious option that from what I can see no one is mentioning: Elune as a first one.
    Why would she be the Winter Queen's counterpart, then? Is it something like lesser Pantheons being able to ascend to being First Ones? If that's the case, might that be the future Azeroth has?

  5. #28165
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Perhaps it could've been more aesthetically-interesting if the robotic design style were used from the get-go and he were explicitly operating on mechanical logic as opposed to being another humanoid insisting he cannot be overcome etc.

    He could've used the Jailer frame we've already seen, albeit with the robes of the concept art and the Arbiter's head shape.
    Imagine it being a setup for a villain speaking in a manner different from "grahaha...there will be no escape! Your soul is mine!" for once.

  6. #28166
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Imagine it being a setup for a villain speaking in a manner different from "grahaha...there will be no escape! Your soul is mine!" for once.
    Even if not the entirely mechanical option, he could've also been a flamboyant control freak, I think, which would really fit his theme of "domination" and motive of controlling all other cosmic forces.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2022-03-09 at 08:43 PM.

  7. #28167
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrad Wagner View Post
    I hadn't thought about that. Crap, that would ruin Elune...
    Eh, Blizzard not being able to characterize her properly is vastly more damagin than her being a construct.

    Her random behavior with Tyrande's powers that didn't actually change anything for her fate, her deliberate vagueness about Teldrassil and inability to utilize her godly braincells to think ahead for 2 seconds.

    I can live with Robo-moon-mommy, but not with the thing stated above.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  8. #28168
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Eh, Blizzard not being able to characterize her properly is vastly more damagin than her being a construct.

    Her random behavior with Tyrande's powers that didn't actually change anything for her fate, her deliberate vagueness about Teldrassil and inability to utilize her godly braincells to think ahead for 2 seconds.

    I can live with Robo-moon-mommy, but not with the thing stated above.
    Maybe someone forgot a bracket.

  9. #28169
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Even aside from being a machine, he could've been a flamboyant control freak, I think, which would really fit his theme of "domination" and motive of controlling all other cosmic forces.
    Yeah that works for me. I get the idea is that the Jailer always speaks relative to what is proprietary, that he sees everyone as something of his ownership, but he could've spiced it up to sound like literally anything different from the same 80s cartoon characters we've been dealing with for the last 18 years.

  10. #28170
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    I must admit, even if the end cinematic sitll echoes as "lame" in my brain, zereth mortis is really one of the best end-of-xpac-zones since a while. Maybe since MoP
    I am curious how talisien defends this cinematic though. In the anduin cinematic I really liked the first half and was only pissed about the second one. So overall it was a good one. But the last one was so incredibly underwhelming. Just compare this to the legion end cinematic ... :O
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Sylwina | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - Plus 20 more...

  11. #28171
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    This was originally going to be a model for what some presumed to be an artificial Titan (possibly the original plan for Argus, or an artificial body for him to inhabit)—doesn't it look familiar?
    In that untextured state it does look a lot like the robot Jailer.

    You know, I remember speculating when we first learned about the Jailer that this concept was scrapped for Argus and put off because they thought it would fit better for the Jailer. Unfortunately, they didn't use it for him, either. He didn't even remained chained past the trailers.

    This is honestly the sort of thing I meant earlier when I said that what-could-have-beens can be cool, but also depressing. This is such a neat boss fight set piece, I love seeing this concept, but it also frustrates me to no end that someone decided this wasn't worth doing, maybe even twice. This is the sort of place where I think World of Warcraft is showing its age. It's just so unimaginative. All the bosses are just giant men in a circular room. Even when we're dealing with the forces behind reality, we're still just fighting large people with generic personalities. It's not always bad, but it's just so uninspired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Even if not the entirely mechanical option, he could've also been a flamboyant control freak, I think, which would really fit his theme of "domination" and motive of controlling all other cosmic forces.
    I really wish Domination magic was his to begin with. One of the most unintentionally funny things to me this expansion was the Primus being baffled that dominating someone's will and enslaving their mind could be used for evil.

  12. #28172
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Yeah that works for me. I get the idea is that the Jailer always speaks relative to what is proprietary, that he sees everyone as something of his ownership, but he could've spiced it up to sound like literally anything different from the same 80s cartoon characters we've been dealing with for the last 18 years.
    I could see Zovaal becoming increasingly infuriated as people continue to refuse him. Rather than being a domineering cartoon villain, he could instead project a sense of arrogant paternalism—perhaps it would be more interesting if he were simply, objectively wrong that the design was flawed and was operating on a misunderstanding of the necessity of cosmic sublation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    In that untextured state it does look a lot like the robot Jailer.

    You know, I remember speculating when we first learned about the Jailer that this concept was scrapped for Argus and put off because they thought it would fit better for the Jailer. Unfortunately, they didn't use it for him, either. He didn't even remained chained past the trailers.

    This is honestly the sort of thing I meant earlier when I said that what-could-have-beens can be cool, but also depressing. This is such a neat boss fight set piece, I love seeing this concept, but it also frustrates me to no end that someone decided this wasn't worth doing, maybe even twice. This is the sort of place where I think World of Warcraft is showing its age. It's just so unimaginative. All the bosses are just giant men in a circular room. Even when we're dealing with the forces behind reality, we're still just fighting large people with generic personalities. It's not always bad, but it's just so uninspired.

    I really wish Domination magic was his to begin with. One of the most unintentionally funny things to me this expansion was the Primus being baffled that dominating someone's will and enslaving their mind could be used for evil.
    Indeed. I'd much prefer if Zovaal were simply a functional machine that was making a decision informed only by machine logic, producing Domination Magic as a means of securing the imminent conflict (or even asserting himself , or at least a control freak with that as a more emphasized part of his personality than just "growl roar I'm so evil" with the occasional bit of (often self-contradictory—see his portrayal in the Folklore & Fairy Tales book as opposed to the final cinematic) characterization provided every so often.

    It could've even been within his capacity as the Arbiter, and it was previously what was used to keep the various afterlives in line. Now, he could turn it on the other Cosmic Forces—as opposed to Order or the divine authority of the Light, Domination functions as a system of tyranny or malevolent autocracy.

  13. #28173
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    WoD was shit, but it didn't make me quit in less than three weeks.

    SL is the shit that is below shit.
    I guess it's subjective, I didn't enjoy WoD apart from the leveling, and so far I have enjoyed SL more. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but please let us not mistake them for facts (and I am not finding excuses for SL, some awful decisions were made, on that I'm sure we can both agree)

  14. #28174
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Rather than being a domineering cartoon villain, he could instead project a sense of arrogant paternalism—perhaps it would be more interesting if he were simply, objectively wrong that the design was flawed and was operating on a misunderstanding of the necessity of cosmic sublation.
    Moreover, and most importantly, if he is driven by that warped philosophy, it should be introduced from early on as their core belief system and not their idle dying thoughts. That should be the running theme of the damn narrative!

    I hate to oThEr GaMe GoOd but especially bad villains reinforces how much I fucking miss Emet-Selch. It legitimately makes me sad, seeing so much talented artistry on the part of the visuals, music, sound design, even the performances in most cases...I wish I could have good writing present in this game where I feel the combat, gameplay loop, and my overall retention interest is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    I really wish Domination magic was his to begin with. One of the most unintentionally funny things to me this expansion was the Primus being baffled that dominating someone's will and enslaving their mind could be used for evil.
    I was SCREAMING. Seriously, of all the revelations, it belonging to the Primus was about the only one I didn't expect, and it's about the silliest they could have picked.

    It just makes him look like a massive hypocrite on top of it. And that would be fine if it was called out and that was the point, but...god, that's not getting addressed, we outta here after we address the morally grey eye scarred elephant in the room.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2022-03-09 at 08:59 PM.

  15. #28175
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Perhaps it could've been more aesthetically-interesting if the robotic design style were used from the get-go and he were explicitly operating on mechanical logic as opposed to being another humanoid insisting he cannot be overcome etc.

    He could've used the Jailer frame we've already seen, albeit with the robes of the concept art and the Arbiter's head shape.
    Once again, settling in any what kind of villain the Bald Man is would have done wonders for the plot. I don't even mean a specific kind. He could be PG-13 Jigsaw or Sargeras 2.0 from the get-go or Fantasy Skynet. Hell, he could even be Skeletor, but being anything at all would have at least given something to latch onto. You know you've totally failed at writing a character when you could cut out every line of dialogue he has, without exception, and it'd actually improve him without at all affecting comprehension of the plot.

    The robot thing you know I actually like as it's interesting high concept sci-fi fare and my preferred version of the character archetype would've been Fantasy Skynet. In as much as he's a man at all, he's one who's seen the detritus of humanity day in day out, realizing his work is flawed and pointless and then setting about fixing the framework to work not by variance or iteration and at risk of collapsing if something is knocked off balance but in a constant, completely predictable loop under his direction. That kind of villain has no reason to speak with any of the people he encounters because he's seen endless amounts of them come and go up to this point. He doesn't need to be complex or morally gray to work in a game like Warcraft, but he does need to be something. The only time the character threatened to work for me was the five second interval after Sylvanas shoots him and he couldn't give less of a shit and just goes on with his day and it's precisely because he doesn't intone melodramatic cliches or emotes in any way.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-03-09 at 09:10 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  16. #28176
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Too much hate for one guy. This level of failure required a team.
    Nah, he still calls the shots. He deserves the shit he gets.

  17. #28177
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Once again, settling in any what kind of villain the Bald Man is would have done wonders for the plot. I don't even mean a specific kind. He could be PG-13 Jigsaw or Sargeras 2.0 from the get-go or Fantasy Skynet. Hell, he could even be Skeletor, but being anything at all would have at least given something to latch onto. You know you've totally failed at writing a character when you could cut out every line of dialogue he has, without exception, and it'd actually improve him without at all affecting comprehension of the plot.

    The robot thing you know I actually like as it's interesting high concept sci-fi fare and my preferred version of the character archetype would've been Fantasy Skynet. In as much as he's a man at all, he's one who's seen the detritus of humanity day in day out, realizing his work is flawed and pointless and then setting about fixing the framework to work not by variance or iteration and at risk of collapsing if something is knocked off balance but in a constant, completely predictable loop under his direction. That kind of villain has no reason to speak with any of the people he encounters because he's seen endless amounts of them come and go up to this point. He doesn't need to be complex or morally gray to work in a game like Warcraft, but he does need to be something. The only time the character threatened to work for me was the five second interval after Sylvanas shoots him and he couldn't give less of a shit and just goes on with his day and it's precisely because he doesn't intone melodramatic cliches or emotes in any way.
    Fantasy Skynet! The Arbiter being a construct gone rogue after seeing the flaw of their universe. He would’ve been better as an AI from the get-go - though less conventional for a death themed expansion.

  18. #28178
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    He only started calling the shots halfway through SL development so if you think it's all one persons fault then it's impossible to give him flack for a product that was fucked in extenuating circumstances. If 10.0 is weak then sure yeah.

    Then again the WoW fanbase always needs some single person to blame.
    Ion gets to share the ire of the community with Danuser now. Honestly, I think if you value your self-worth as a member of the game development industry the worst thing that can happen to you is to somehow be associated with this community.

  19. #28179
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The orcish Nagrand afterlife was based on a spaceship piloted by a jigsaw piece crashlanding there and luring spirits in as part of its lifecycle. Paladins themselves have their powers received not by an ineffable divine but by said jigsaw pieces. None of these things have any pertinence going forward. Shadowlands will have less, if anything, because the story is shit and never spends even a second tackling any of the consequences of the races learning what it is the afterlife entails because it's more interested in its shambolic soap opera plot.
    Regardless of the spaceship is undeniable that we made contact with spirits of the dead, those religions for the players, may never matter, but for the races, in-game, matters, thats why when you actively confront then it gets awkward.

    I don't think its worse than BFA, but its bad and can't be ignored either

    It's closest to the Infinite Legion or Thrall's Dragon Soul stint with alternate universes, because these things are large, stupid and have large consequences on paper, but in practice do not matter because they do not come up. It's not that Shadowlands is easy to work around because it's good, it's easy to work around because it's incredibly self-contained and the writers who don't even care to resolve where all the hundreds of Legion ships that we see invade from Argus to Azeroth went or the literal sword in the planet will not adjust their writing to take into account complex societal recontextualization of the afterlife.
    Infinite legion isn't as much as problem as shadowlands because the other dimensions don't matter, as out timeline is the only right one, everything that happened outside our timeline is straight up bananas. Thrall dragon soul isn't as much problem as shadowlands either, his role is less than Sylvanus had. Just because shadowlands happens in the shadowlands, doesn't mean it didn't affect warcraft as franchise with all the "re-imagined" stuff, from characters to cosmology, that, now, start to dig under the mortal affairs.

  20. #28180
    I've been critiquing the story here, and I do often, but I often can't blame the writers for just not looking at the feedback.

    I've seen the community misinterpret the most unambiguous plot points. I've seen suggestions that, at best, fix the extremely specific issue they're addressing, at the cost of wrecking the entire rest of the story in the process. Sturgeon's law is definitely in effect where most of the fans' "better ideas for the story" aren't any better, even when the story really is at a nearly unanimously agreed low point.

    One of the last times I thought the story did something really amazing, my YouTube recommendations turned into a bunch of videos making fun of the event for doing something it didn't even do. If I was one of the writers I'd try to just avoid all of that as much as possible, because it's just a mess.

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