1. #28201
    They literally destroyed Arthas character with that ICC cinamatic.

  2. #28202
    regarding the consequences of SL on cultures and similar mistakes in the past, for me it's more of a question of how ignorable the consequences are and how it changes my expectations for possible future developments.

    the earliest mistake i can remember is Teldrassil - not its' burning, but its' creation. over a period of less than four years, a tree the size of a mountain with several settlements, lakes and rivers on top of it grew out of nothing on a small island in the ocean, and it's also way bigger than its' parent tree. and post-cata it looks even sillier.
    how did it even happen? can world trees with a lot of livable land on them be planted at will?
    that makes no sense and I suspect the true reason behind its' destruction is simply because someone on the lore team wanted to get rid of all these questions along with an ugly stump in-game. kinda like with Southshore, it's just convenient to cut, albeit for slightly different reasons.
    at the same time it's not hard to ignore that Teldrassil makes no sense if you can accept that it was an obvious mistake which is not likely to happen again.

    dragon soul makes more sense, imo. i always thought that after being fired it just returns to the exact moment and place it was snatched from and all the memories of dragons and randos running around are deleted. Nozdormu losing his sand means that it's no longer accessible.

    Draenor was pulled into existence just by a noname dragon with a previously unexisting wunderwaffle. it's harder to ignore it, as Legion is its' direct consequence, as are the Mag'har. why couldn't Aman'thul or the collective bronze dragonflight just create a million Draenors and zergrush Argus with orcs is a mystery.

    apart from ruining everyone's afterlife beliefs, SL makes death a non-punishment and life unimportant. a furry can overhear Shandris talking about Ardenweald in a tavern, serve for a couple of years in the forest protection department, hang himself and voilà, he's set for eternity as a fluffy blue squirrel or something. who tf would care about their mortal affairs after that?

  3. #28203
    Quote Originally Posted by guro-tchai View Post
    apart from ruining everyone's afterlife beliefs, SL makes death a non-punishment and life unimportant. a furry can overhear Shandris talking about Ardenweald in a tavern, serve for a couple of years in the forest protection department, hang himself and voilà, he's set for eternity as a fluffy blue squirrel or something. who tf would care about their mortal affairs after that?
    So what you're saying is you haven't actually understood it. Motivation is a key factor in your destiny. Acting out of a selfish desire to get an afterlife you consider favourable will itself affect which one you get. In your scenario, probably Revendreth or something similar.

  4. #28204
    No matter who is the one in charge of the writing

    You have to admit that them taking Chronicles which was supposed to be the end all be all definitive source of lore and throwing it out the window so they could “craft multiple connected and complex stories” is probably hilarious in a situation where it’s not so pathetic

  5. #28205
    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Dragons View Post
    No matter who is the one in charge of the writing

    You have to admit that them taking Chronicles which was supposed to be the end all be all definitive source of lore and throwing it out the window so they could “craft multiple connected and complex stories” is probably hilarious in a situation where it’s not so pathetic
    I imagine the malleability has turned off a lot of people. Why get invested when there's no consistency?

  6. #28206
    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Dragons View Post
    No matter who is the one in charge of the writing

    You have to admit that them taking Chronicles which was supposed to be the end all be all definitive source of lore and throwing it out the window so they could “craft multiple connected and complex stories” is probably hilarious in a situation where it’s not so pathetic
    I'm starting to wonder if the Chronicle was written by the writers who had enough of the retcons and wanted a stable foundation to build future lore from, but despite making it to print they were still at war with whoever it is that insist they retcon arbitrary things every patch, and ultimately they lost. The Chronicles weren't just great sources of lore, they were masterpieces of reconciling the inconsistencies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I imagine the malleability has turned off a lot of people. Why get invested when there's no consistency?
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the perpetual rough draft state of Warcraft's story is its biggest weakness. Even a bad story isn't as bad as a good story getting overruled tomorrow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    Chronicles has been deprecated since the day it dropped though. That's why they have to keep putting out new ones.
    Volume 2 and 3 covered different time periods, they didn't keep updating the same information, unless you're referring to something else. It was contradicted fairly quickly, though. The most glaring one I remember was the story of Helya and Odyn differing in subtle but significant ways between the Chronicle and Legion. Outright declaring them as-good-as-non-canonical was still a terrible idea, as the writing needs that encouragement to be consistent.
    Last edited by Jokubas; 2022-03-10 at 02:27 AM.

  7. #28207
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    So what you're saying is you haven't actually understood it. Motivation is a key factor in your destiny. Acting out of a selfish desire to get an afterlife you consider favourable will itself affect which one you get. In your scenario, probably Revendreth or something similar.
    hang a bit in ravendreath, get the sin of killing yourself clean, and go to ardenweald,

    Either way, the point of not caring about your mortal life is true, just be reckless and don't need to get any attachements to the mortal world

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    I'm starting to wonder if the Chronicle was written by the writers who had enough of the retcons and wanted a stable foundation to build future lore from, but despite making it to print they were still at war with whoever it is that insist they retcon arbitrary things every patch, and ultimately they lost. The Chronicles weren't just great sources of lore, they were masterpieces of reconciling the inconsistencies.
    Im one of the people who disliked some of the things they retconed and put on stone in chronicles, some changes were bad and biased that should be better handled for sure, cause even in chronicles there is inconsistencies in previous lore bits, but even i know you rly need a foundation like that to set for future stories, since they don't bother to read their own extensive stuff.

    Saying it was all titan perspective rly killed the book series and nothing there rly can be taken from granted, cause how the heck titans would knew those tidbits about mortals? stuff that was retconed or had inconsistencies clash with previous lore, so who do i take the word? previous book who were word of god, who until chronicles were hard canon, or do i take titan perspective who can be wrong from what we can see?

    They ended up making a bigger mess.

  8. #28208
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    A cosmos divided will not survive.

    There is a greater threat than the division they allow us to see, the clockmaker makes his way closer
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  9. #28209
    Is there going to be a post-mortem (no pun intended) on the implications of the pantheon being manufactured, or is it just "Shadowlands is over and let's forget about it"?
    Last edited by Gloriandus; 2022-03-10 at 04:54 AM.
    Google doc with all plate mogs complete with import codes! PLATE TRANSMOG-O-RAMA

  10. #28210
    We started out with an Azeroth divided would not stand a chance against outside threats to a cosmos divided would not stand a chance against outer-reality threats...?

  11. #28211
    I dont know how people can honestly call this the worst. Between the linear storyline, covenants, soulbinds and torghast these were pretty refreshing new gameplay mechanics.

    I would say the linear storyline alone was such a huge and cool new fun way to tell the story. Now, it was not nearly an expansion i played as much. But I think it had more to do with what was going on in my life. DId the story itself suck? Only aspects at most. The covenant, arbiter story was pretty cool…but we got really cool developments as well. The night walker, Elune, dread lords back story was pretty cool plot development. It advanced a lot of great storylines if you overlook the Sylvanas/Jailer stuff. Otherwise the storyline developments we got were pretty cool like seeing Thrall and Draka.

    To call this the worst is objectively not even close. That being said I dont know about the comparison to MOP but interestingly I did find MOP was the expansion i actively played the most. I had max level alts of every class i played daily during MOP. But was it better than SL? I wouldn’t say so at all. The linear story alone was refreshing and a much better change.,

  12. #28212
    Quote Originally Posted by Allstarme View Post
    I dont know how people can honestly call this the worst. Between the linear storyline, covenants, soulbinds and torghast these were pretty refreshing new gameplay mechanics.

    I would say the linear storyline alone was such a huge and cool new fun way to tell the story. Now, it was not nearly an expansion i played as much. But I think it had more to do with what was going on in my life. DId the story itself suck? Only aspects at most. The covenant, arbiter story was pretty cool…but we got really cool developments as well. The night walker, Elune, dread lords back story was pretty cool plot development. It advanced a lot of great storylines if you overlook the Sylvanas/Jailer stuff. Otherwise the storyline developments we got were pretty cool like seeing Thrall and Draka.

    To call this the worst is objectively not even close. That being said I dont know about the comparison to MOP but interestingly I did find MOP was the expansion i actively played the most. I had max level alts of every class i played daily during MOP. But was it better than SL? I wouldn’t say so at all. The linear story alone was refreshing and a much better change.,
    New bad, old good, etc.

  13. #28213
    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    Volume 2 and 3 covered different time periods, they didn't keep updating the same information, unless you're referring to something else. It was contradicted fairly quickly, though. The most glaring one I remember was the story of Helya and Odyn differing in subtle but significant ways between the Chronicle and Legion. Outright declaring them as-good-as-non-canonical was still a terrible idea, as the writing needs that encouragement to be consistent.
    Chronicle is still canon, it just isn't exhaustive. The problem with Chronicle long-term, irrespective of what I agree are basically high quality books, trying to turn a soft magic setting into a hard one and half-assing it aside, is that they were solid for what they covered, but they also solved the setting and closed the elements they discussed. Consider the portrayal of the Titans and Old Gods before and after. Do you see the kindly grandfatherly gods from Legion (who were dead in Chronicle but alive in Legion, natch) who were chatting with regular mortals installing kill switches on whole planets? How ineffable are the Old Gods really when they're no longer eldritch horrors who toss the rules of reality, see how 'Twilight' cultists use both shadow and light, but comprehensible projections of a specific cosmic power?

    People quite rightly take the piss out of the First Ones as being Ersatz-Titans, but when you demystify, meet and kill all Gods of the setting in between Chronicle and the end of Legion you pretty much have to do it to be able to do the same kind of sci-fi factory progenitor business that's been a mainstay of the game since Vanilla and to continue to have some mystery in the setting. Someone was eventualy going to have to pull the trigger on what Shadowlands did.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-03-10 at 06:37 AM.
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  14. #28214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    The actual build number not changing is incredibly triggering to me. I wouldn't be surprised if they're just messing with us at this point.
    So this wowdev3 is rather not for Wrath, right? I was wondering if it could be some kind of public demo since there is no Blizzcon, some sample of 10.0 zone/dungeon based on 9.2 build/classes.

  15. #28215
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Ion gets to share the ire of the community with Danuser now. Honestly, I think if you value your self-worth as a member of the game development industry the worst thing that can happen to you is to somehow be associated with this community.
    Or to be part of the World of Warcraft team of recent years. Because that’s definitely no win either and one reason why they seem to be incapable of finding talents and developers that want to work for them. So… it goes both ways. The reputation several parts of the WoW team have since BfA was earned over the years and didn’t come out of nowhere.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Catastrophy349 View Post
    https://pastebin.com/2hqwSweJ New "leak"

    Obviously FAKE, posted for fun!
    I like some of the story takes here. Doesn’t sound too bad.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-03-10 at 07:21 AM.
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  16. #28216
    High Overlord delphiskye's Avatar
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    hey anyone notice the new buildings in eastern kingdoms? all emtpy of npcs but have names in files. Elwyn forest Westfall and Duskwood all have at least one
    do not annoy the dragon for you are small crunchy and good with sauce

  17. #28217
    Ok so I am going to suit up in my tinfoil armor here

    The jailer did his crap because he wanted a United cosmos (literally a cosmic version of past enemies’ plans) which means outside of the 6 cosmic forces there is a 7th and while I figure that reality was being protected from the empty 7th force. What if Azeroth is the seventh force.

    Azeroth is super powerful but the pantheon hasn’t attempted to send more forces to defend her?? The jailer was going to drain her but we stopped him. Sargeras stabbed the planet and she is soooooo weak as an unborn titan but she survived that?? Something doesn’t make sense and with the current writers slowly killing old lore I’m prepared for this

  18. #28218
    The 7th Force could be a First One who went rogue. The first Void Lord and progenitor of the Void.

    The main villain of Starcraft is Amon, a rogue Xel'naga who went rogue and became one with the Void. Essentially becoming a Void Lord. The climax/ending of Starcraft took place inside the Void itself. Blizzard likes to recycle their stories.

    So the ultimate villain could be a Void Lord. But because that Void Lord is a rogue First One, it is seen as a 7th Force.

  19. #28219
    Quote Originally Posted by Allstarme View Post
    I dont know how people can honestly call this the worst. Between the linear storyline, covenants, soulbinds and torghast these were pretty refreshing new gameplay mechanics.

    I would say the linear storyline alone was such a huge and cool new fun way to tell the story. Now, it was not nearly an expansion i played as much. But I think it had more to do with what was going on in my life. DId the story itself suck? Only aspects at most. The covenant, arbiter story was pretty cool…but we got really cool developments as well. The night walker, Elune, dread lords back story was pretty cool plot development. It advanced a lot of great storylines if you overlook the Sylvanas/Jailer stuff. Otherwise the storyline developments we got were pretty cool like seeing Thrall and Draka.

    To call this the worst is objectively not even close. That being said I dont know about the comparison to MOP but interestingly I did find MOP was the expansion i actively played the most. I had max level alts of every class i played daily during MOP. But was it better than SL? I wouldn’t say so at all. The linear story alone was refreshing and a much better change.,
    For me, Shadowlands is the worst expansion ever. Let me explain. I mainly play WoW for its story and its characters, and while the narrative devices and lore inconsistencies of this game have always left a lot to be desired, in BfA and especially in Shadowlands, the new levels of incompetence that they have achieved regarding lore is unbelievable.

    The story, and especially, the way in which the story is told, is utterly shit, is just SO, SO bad, that It kills my will to play the game. I am just not interested anymore. I keep following the story because I LOVE the game and its universe, and I always watch the cinematics in the hope of some kind of explanation, some justification, some development, SOMETHING.

    But no. Nothing.

    The worst thing is that I can dig (another) shitty story. But Shadowlands is not just another shitty story, it has completely destroyed the previous lore. Practically everything that has happened was Zooval's doing. The evil mastermind of who we still know nothing. Never a villain has had so little development.

    And all this disaster for what? Just to established a even bigger cosmic threath? An even bigger power which is so powerful just because we are beating beings so beyond our reach that Blizzard wants to keep the ball rolling.

    I really thought that they will use Shadowlands to make a soft reset of the game, both regarding lore and systems. But it seems that they are doubling down in this path to irrelevance.

    10.0 really needs to be different. It cannot be just a good expansion with the same systems. They have to make BIG changes, and please, tell a decent story, just a decent one.
    Last edited by Darkarath; 2022-03-10 at 08:03 AM.
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  20. #28220
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The 7th Force could be a First One who went rogue. The first Void Lord and progenitor of the Void.
    So Sargeras? Thanks, but no thanks.
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