Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Alanar]

*facepalm*



We haven't been to the Emerald Dream either, just bits and pieces of it.



Xavius? Barely a pawn... you can't tell me he's the Big Bad of the Life cosmic force.
N'zoth, Azshara and the Black Empire have nothing to do with the Dream, so i don't know why you even bring them up.



Dude, you liking it has nothing to do with its porbability. I don't need to provide you with anything. If you can't see Blizzard coming up with an ED expansion, like they did with Shadowlands, that's your problem. As it stands, the Emerald Dream and the Life cosmic force have not been throroughly explored.



The only argument you have provided so far is "i don't like it. I think it's boring". Which is not much of an argument to begin with.

Look my dude.. you respond with 2 sentences, I already put more effort in one post alone and you come with you have yet to give an argument. Go back.. read the post and respond to that and not some vague response with trust me bro I am right. No you are not. I already gave you enough pointers and you refuse to respond to that.

I even agreed with you on the building part, but ofc you didnt read that. I am not interested in the ED, because the charm is gone and the threat has been dealt with. New threats can rise, but please learn to understand that takea time to build and for people to care. Northend isnt shadowlands and outland isnt broken isle or argus. Those forces werent dealt with completely compared to the nightmare and whole that.
So your comparison is not even relevant.

Not into your hatefull way of discussing anything and it IS a circle conversation, which I already knew it was going to happen. Not into that, so I am out anyway.

Moving on.

[Vakir]

This is one thing the story would badly benefit from but will never do because of the internalized 'no negativity in the Dojo' mentality. The writing staff aren't intentionally telling a poor story, be it Afrasiabi's Sadfang Chronicle or Danuser's Gray Waifu Rehabilitation Tour, but they are inured to speaking of it only from their own perspective. What would give them an enormous amount of credibility back would be if they produced an autopsy report the way the League of legends team where they outright admit they fucked up, what they were trying to do and what did and didn't work. But this won't happen.

"How do you determine there's no negativity present in the dojo...without talking about negativity in the dojo?"

The call is coming from inside the house! Who could've guessed.

Metzen did this too! Even back in Mists, he at least said, live, at panels, "we were going for an internal Cataclysm just like external with the Thrall elements quest line and I guess it didn't really work in the context of the game" and that they were moving away from the "magical mood disorder shit" with Varian, which were both generally perceived as silly.

I just don't get the same perception of passion with these guys because when I love something or want it to be good, I look at it critically, be it my own work or another's.

[AngerFork]

This is one thing the story would badly benefit from but will never do because of the internalized 'no negativity in the Dojo' mentality. The writing staff aren't intentionally telling a poor story, be it Afrasiabi's Sadfang Chronicle or Danuser's Gray Waifu Rehabilitation Tour,

Do we still have that hype train image somewhere? Because I'd love to see a banner for the train heading towards Danuser's Gray Waifu Rehabilitation Tour and/or some tour dates to go with it.

[Super Dickmann]

Do we still have that hype train image somewhere? Because I'd love to see a banner for the train heading towards Danuser's Gray Waifu Rehabilitation Tour and/or some tour dates to go with it.

Who's our hype train man? I'd be glad to have made my humble contribution on our express way to Explosion of Dragons.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

J.J.Abrams's Ted Talk and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

This was the beginning of MMO-Champion's radicalization. They gradually grew to hate Abramization—a hatred which would grow, and have consequences wide-ranging and unpredictable.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe. Part of it might be colored by how I've been conditioned to this shit with (bad) pro wrestling as well. A similar range of wait and see tactics that are placed just to stir shock for a week's worth of ratings or "engagement" or so before unceremoniously dropped or to be completely warped with no passing semblance to what was introduced. That or stretching something over 3 months with no endgame plan. Granted, they have backstage politics fucking with things that the writer's room here seemingly does not...although if the Afrasiabi drama is true, maybe they do.

I dunno. I'd love to see them just sit down and have a normal conversation with the Nobbel and the...dare I say... Pyromancer types. No pre-written bites, no canned responses, no "worries about spoiling future story beats," just a functional conversation about "here's what we're aiming for in terms of tone, style, themes. Here's a general idea of where we're going without giving you a summary. Let's talk about the perceived dissonance and frustration of the community without falling back on making it about character actions and more about the actual quality of writing."

Say what you want about Metzen, and he had tons of problems, but he always actually said something about the intent of the general direction of the story and what the aim of the narrative was. "When we go to Outland, we're running into people that have gone mad stuck beyond the portal, like in Apocalypse Now." "We lost part of ourselves out there in the snow of Northrend, part of us isn't coming back in Cataclysm." Statements that give a general overview of the vibe and a sense of direction.

Every stupid mainstream article mentioning Sylvanas or something of the like always falls back on "she's done naughty things and people are in a frenzy! Christie Golden is excited!" and it absolutely never addresses the actual fan narrative happening that people are reacting to regarding consistency of motivation, double standards, internal narrative logic, etc.

The tone is ...

... uh ...

We want the story to have a tone. That's for sure. Man, Sylvanas sure is having a redemption, isn't she? No one saw that coming except for as soon as last expansion happened.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Sounds awful tbh

It does not, and many players are craving for a more down-to-earth (or should I say down-to-Azeroth) storyline. That cosmic jazz has its limits and should be used with parsimony...

[Nyel]

We should go back to Defias level conspiracies, or how Onyxia was puppetering SW's nobility around.

I really like this. That's why I find "Awakenings" type of leaks pretty interesting.

[Fahrad Wagner]

This is about Turalyon.. not pelagos.

Clearly, making it about Pelagos would make no sense whatsoever. If I'm wrong in the future, please quote me back on this and I'll eat my hat gladly!

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I maintain, like you point out, that they're simply shit at their job and have been zombified by watching too much Mystery Box TV and have attempted to transplant an incompatible form of storytelling to the medium, which is how we reach what I hope is the nadir, but know won't be. I.e, where you can't have a plot as basic as "Robot Satan wants to kill everyone" without having to play coy for 99% of the runtime as to whether that's what he really intends or whether Robot Satan might not actually have some valid points about the tax code.

Imagine if they limited it to where it actually was always sufficient—the Old Gods. That's what started the Mystery Box storytelling, and that's where it was effective and people actually enjoyed it. It made sense to gradually build up a Cosmic Horror-themed baddy whose entire shtick is manipulation and long-term schemes. They were unpredictable, greater-scope, and very mysterious—this made it very interesting to deconstruct their foreshadowing. Conversely, no one cares what the fucking Bald Man we just met is up to. You can't foreshadow anything substantial about someone we just met, you have to actually establish them for them to be interesting. The Old Gods were around for a good while and we knew their themes and tendencies—any action could've been their handiwork. The Jailer was just a nobody dicking around who we can't really foreshadow anything interesting with because we have few themes to associate with him.

Honestly, as hacky as it was, the best foreshadowing or cryptic "next episode on ... " thing they ever did with him was somehow his mind-numbingly cliché "what is to come" line.

- - - Updated - - -

Clearly, making it about Pelagos would make no sense whatsoever. If I'm wrong in the future, please quote me back on this and I'll eat my hat gladly!

The reason why some think "Pelagos" instead of "Turalyon" is because it would imply, by association, villain-batting the lunatic who is actively meddling in powers beyond her comprehension and has generally only been acting out of suicidal envy and a desire to bring her kooky cult of time bombs to Silvermoon—you know, the place where it is already established that there is a massive fountain of energy that could be turned into a world-ending portal to the Void just by the passive presence of one of the Void Elves.

[Vakir]

This was the beginning of MMO-Champion's radicalization. They gradually grew to hate Abramization—a hatred which would grow, and have consequences wide-ranging and unpredictable.

...tune in to find out what they are!

Also, yeah, they took the best mystery box they had, the Old Gods, and demystified and defanged them THE MOST of ANYTHING.

To the point that their most frantic adjacent fan is in absolute denial.

They keep giving answers to all the stuff that should be mysterious and outside our understanding, but continues to play coy with very "human" and real connections when it should be the opposite. It's like I'm asking my neighbor for answers to a test and he passes me a copy of fucking Ulysses.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Sounds awful tbh

So, instead of gradually unraveling a massive conspiracy that connects several smaller threats together with plenty of foreshadowing and which will help provide a very interesting conclusion to a good chunk of the plot whilst also bringing in a degree of moral profundity which could be explored to make players question whether or not they are really the heroes, we ought to instead follow more evil bald men speaking in deep baritones and hot waifus getting redemption because of their lovely pair of personalities?

[Fahrad Wagner]

Imagine if they limited it to where it actually was always sufficient—the Old Gods. That's what started the Mystery Box storytelling, and that's where it was effective and people actually enjoyed it. It made sense to gradually build up a Cosmic Horror-themed baddy whose entire shtick is manipulation and long-term schemes. They were unpredictable, greater-scope, and very mysterious—this made it very interesting to deconstruct their foreshadowing. Conversely, no one cares what the fucking Bald Man we just met is up to. You can't foreshadow anything substantial about someone we just met, you have to actually establish them for them to be interesting. The Old Gods were around for a good while and we knew their themes and tendencies—any action could've been their handiwork. The Jailer was just a nobody dicking around who we can't really foreshadow anything interesting with because we have few themes to associate with him.

Honestly, as hacky as it was, the best foreshadowing or cryptic "next episode on ... " thing they ever did with him was somehow his mind-numbingly cliché "what is to come" line.

- - - Updated - - -

The reason why some think "Pelagos" instead of "Turalyon" is because it would imply, by association, villain-batting the lunatic who is actively meddling in powers beyond her comprehension and has generally only been acting out of suicidal envy and a desire to bring her kooky cult of time bombs to Silvermoon—you know, the place where it is already established that there is a massive fountain of energy that could be turned into a world-ending portal to the Void just by the passive presence of one of the Void Elves..

So many missed opportunities to do a good job with the storyline. I really hope they eventually understand what makes a story great is how well written its characters are, and how coherent the plot is, rather than constantly going for a bigger Mr. Evil and fitting trying to fit squares into triangles cause "we thought squares were cool lol". What pains me is that people taking decisions on these topics should be lore experts but also good storytellers, people who KNOW what they're doing and have proven so; clearly it is not the case. And it's not isolated to Warcraft, Star Wars is another good exemple of how a handful of people with not enough knowledge of a universe can easily ruin it.

Anyway, remaining hopeful for 10.0, but the frustration is real. It's not all bad, of course, but the execution on some key aspects of the story just baffles me.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

So many missed opportunities to do a good job with the storyline. I really hope they eventually understand what makes a story great is how well written its characters are, and how coherent the plot is, rather than constantly going for a bigger Mr. Evil and fitting trying to fit squares into triangles cause "we thought squares were cool lol". What pains me is that people taking decisions on these topics should be lore experts but also good storytellers, people who KNOW what they're doing and have proven so; clearly it is not the case. And it's not isolated to Warcraft, Star Wars is another good exemple of how a handful of people with not enough knowledge of a universe can easily ruin it.

Anyway, remaining hopeful for 10.0, but the frustration is real. It's not all bad, of course, but the execution on some key aspects of the story just baffles me.

Remember the entire Defias conspiracy and Onyxia plotline in Classic, where with very minimal timegating they gradually revealed a very interesting underlying plot which starts as soon as you meet the Defias ~level 5 and gradually extends through the entire Alliance questing experience to reveal a satisfying conclusion which ties these disparate but vaguely-connected plotlines together into one plotline?

[Fahrad Wagner]

Remember the entire Defias conspiracy and Onyxia plotline in Classic, where with very minimal timegating they gradually revealed a very interesting underlying plot which starts as soon as you meet the Defias ~level 5 and gradually extends through the entire Alliance questing experience to reveal a satisfying conclusion which ties these disparate but vaguely-connected plotlines together into one plotline?

That's precisely what constitues good storytelling, especially for a videogame medium, in my humble opinion.
I believe we can have that again, and it will make the bigger villains even more interesting... we just need the people in charge of the story (Steve and others, cause let's face it, he clearly isn't alone in this mess) to shift paradigm. One can dream right?

[Skildar]

I maintain, like you point out, that they're simply shit at their job and have been zombified by watching too much Mystery Box TV and have attempted to transplant an incompatible form of storytelling to the medium, which is how we reach what I hope is the nadir, but know won't be. I.e, where you can't have a plot as basic as "Robot Satan wants to kill everyone" without having to play coy for 99% of the runtime as to whether that's what he really intends or whether Robot Satan might not actually have some valid points about the tax code.

That's what I find to be pretty comical. Lorewise we never needed to understand his motive to gain the motivation to stop him. But on an entertainment pov it's a complete fail for the character to be so secretive about his own goal and motivations.

[Vakir]

Remember the entire Defias conspiracy and Onyxia plotline in Classic, where with very minimal timegating they gradually revealed a very interesting underlying plot which starts as soon as you meet the Defias ~level 5 and gradually extends through the entire Alliance questing experience to reveal a satisfying conclusion which ties these disparate but vaguely-connected plotlines together into one plotline?

Another thing that made this work that people underrate is that it unfolded largely in gameplay and not soap opera cutscenes where we're god powered flies on the wall or in a tie-in book that'll be obsolete in 6 months.

You can argue RP walking with Windsor feels like a slow and plodding experience compared to the fast gratification we're used to now, but after experiencing everything up to that, the environmental storytelling, all the clues, and putting the pieces together, to have that march to the keep, it's a damn MOMENT because it feels so earned and authentic. To connect it to such a major mark of player power, your key to the raid, is some peak implementation to the medium of a damn game.

Breaks my heart there's no strong Horde equivalent, but they made out like bandits in Cata to compensate, especially having the best overall zone in Silverpine.

[Grimbold21]

Another thing that made this work that people underrate is that it unfolded largely in gameplay and not soap opera cutscenes where we're god powered flies on the wall or in a tie-in book that'll be obsolete in 6 months.

You can argue RP walking with Windsor feels like a slow and plodding experience compared to the fast gratification we're used to now, but after experiencing everything up to that, the environmental storytelling, all the clues, and putting the pieces together, to have that march to the keep, it's a damn MOMENT because it feels so earned and authentic.

Breaks my heart there's no strong Horde equivalent, but they made out like bandits in Cata to compensate, especially having the best overall zone in Silverpine.

It's no coincidence that Vanilla's - or some of them - long quest chains are remembered fondly, by some anyway.

[Pheraz]

That's precisely what constitues good storytelling, especially for a videogame medium, in my humble opinion.
I believe we can have that again, and it will make the bigger villains even more interesting... we just need the people in charge of the story (Steve and others, cause let's face it, he clearly isn't alone in this mess) to shift paradigm. One can dream right?

I am pretty sure that they realized it's a nice way to make extra cash via books by hyping people with that "if you only know what I know" cinematics and then leave plot holes as vast as the twisting nether

Money>gameplay>lore

[Varodoc]

I expect to be proven right about a great many things I predicted on April 19.

[Sondrelk]

That's precisely what constitues good storytelling, especially for a videogame medium, in my humble opinion.
I believe we can have that again, and it will make the bigger villains even more interesting... we just need the people in charge of the story (Steve and others, cause let's face it, he clearly isn't alone in this mess) to shift paradigm. One can dream right?

I think we still have some of it, just not in the greater overarching plots. Drustvar had a really solid and engaging (if campy) plot where it took us on an odyssey across the zone until we finally learned that one of the people we were trying to save was the mastermind behind the whole disaster, all ending in a solid dungeon.

I have said before, and I stick by that the writers are at least decent at their work, but that it would take a genius to write epicstorylines on the fly even as random bits gets set in stone and valid criticism is hailing in.
Afterall, it isnt like Blizzard could change the Sepulcher cinematic once it was out, but once it was they were bound to it and likely couldnt change much of the remaining plot of Shadowlands in a natural way as the assets were already made and the work on the next expansion was already ongoing.

What Blizzard needs is to completely disentangle themselves from the overarching plot, and instead focus on smaller zone specific plotlines that require little easing into or out of.
Doing this they can then take the lovely cinematics and general effort that goes into often doomed projects like the Sadfang cinematics, and instead put them into showing a ressurected Ragnaros blow up Blackrock Mountain. Or Feralas being attacked by a giant Botani.
Something that lets the writers really focus on writing solid stuff, and also let the greater development team do what they are the best at without needing to share the baggage of Sylvanas' botched speech about Arthas.