Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Kiivar86]

Just saw OW 2 announcement and remembered this https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...s-of-Galakaros


If You Shift time, he did get Sojourn and OW CBT.

If you have to change or shift things in order for it to be correct, then it isn't correct.

[crusadernero]

Exactly, I just find it so cringe when people nerd over the old god throwaway quotes, they literally never meant anything

I understand that people at one point in time were a bit hung up about old god qoutes/sentences, but at this point everyone should just leave them alone. it leads to nothing and everything people have thought "made sense" is made sense because fans have said so, not Blizzard.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

This is the case. The Jailer talking about system collapse and how having purposefully opposite forces that aim to throw things off balance and will eventually fuck up entirely, in particular as regards Death, which everything has a loophole to, makes sense. It's more natural, interesting and gels with the lore in this very patch establishing the 7th Force as the overlap/intersection of all six and with what Firim describes as his plan. A divided cosmos can't deal with what's to come which is one power going out of balance and destroying everything. A united one can. It also fits with what Denathrius says regarding the only force remaining being Death. Everything points in that direction.

That's what I'm thinking of. It's always simply struck me as though he's supposed to be a control freak who wants to "dominate" the other forces to prevent a cosmic war. Bit of a shame, since that could've been very interesting if it were plainly communicated from the beginning and his personality actually fit with that.

Maybe Yellow.

I'm thinking plain monochrome, since Void is purple.

[Hitei]

Even if that's the case, what exactly is the purpose of having the extraneous rogue force? It seems rather superfluous to the purpose of the conflict and I don't see much in the way of interesting or meaningful conflict to come out of stopping the heat death of the universe. It's rather awkward to imagine that they set up these big, final villains in the way of the Void Lords and then add more villains whose role is just "look! They're bigger and badder!"

"Purpose" in what regard? Like the narrative function of its inclusion?

As current lore stands, we don't (and have never had) a reason for the existence of the cosmic forces. Prior to the Shadowlands, they simply existed, which is an approach that works but still has holes (it's not like fundamental forces and laws in our universe exist for no reason, we just don't understand why they do what they do very well yet). After the Shadowlands, they exist because the First Ones crafted some exceedingly elaborate universal "machine" that consists of a bunch of forces in balance against one another (whether this addition is good or bad comes down to personal preference).

In that new iteration, the question of "Why?" becomes a lot more important, because we have sentient beings making a decision. Why did they make the cosmic forces and this elaborate machine? Well, probably for some purpose. The seventh would answer that purpose. They made the cosmos to do something involving the seventh. Contain it, destroy it, heal it, ward it off, surpass it. Who knows.

All additions are superfluous to this same extent, honestly. You always have a question "where did X come from" and two answers:
1) It just exists, don't think too hard about it
2) It came from Y.

There's no reason that the seventh needs to be introduced if you want to answer "why did the First Ones make the cosmic balancing act?" with 1, but that leaves the question hanging.
There's no reason that the First Ones need to exist if you answer "Where did this cosmic balancing act come from" with 1, but as above, it leaves the question there. There's no reason that the cosmic balancing act needs to exist if you answer "Where did the void come from" with 1, but as above.
There's no reason that the Void needs to exist if you answer "Where did the Old Gods come from" with 1.

All the way down. Whether you like things being answered or not, is as previously mentioned, a personal preference. There is always going to be something bigger, that is just the nature of reality even if you don't explicitly address that nature.

--


Despite what most people think, I very much doubt Blizzard is trying to set up any sort of actually encounterable antagonist here. They view this expansion as a bookend to the previous extended arc, not as a transitional piece. It is unlikely that we will ever encounter, or probably even learn all that much about the Seventh, or the First Ones themselves. I imagine what happened here is that back during the initial writing of Legion, with the Legion's storyline coming to a close, and the foreknowledge that they were going to be offing the remains of the Old God threat, they were forced to grapple with having shown too much of their hand. This isn't a modern writing problem, but something that has been an issue since Vanilla when they allowed C'thun to be a killable raid boss.

Fantasy universes need some threatening or unease-inducing force far off in the distance in a place that is wholly untouchable by characters (your Melkor, your Chaos/Elder/Outer Gods, etc.), But early expansions started the trend of bringing players too close to that. You have mysterious, primordial Old God things but they are killable, you have god-like titan keepers but they are meetable, you have Sargeras the dark Titan, but his avatar is within the scope of a super-empowered human mage. We literally know the Titan pantheon's entire timeline and lore.

With Legion on the drawing board and the Void not far off in narrative preparation, they saw a chance to reset as part of this bookend -> new chapter progression. In an effort to turn back their mistakes, they introduced the First Ones as a mysterious, unknowable group of beings, who unlike the Titans, don't have an appearance, and don't speak our language, and don't have minions who are just big humans. Then they needed, on paper, the slight hint of a motive for these new mysterious god-beings, so they introduced "the Seventh".

That way, when they move into the next chapter, they've effectively reset. We know everything there is to know about the Titans and Legion, and Old Gods, and the Void is simplistic, but in the next era they'll have the First Ones and Seventh to keep far off in the distance as a mysterious thing we don't really know much about. The new version of the Titans and the new version of the Old Gods.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

As current lore stands, we don't (and have never had) a reason for the existence of the cosmic forces. Prior to the Shadowlands, they simply existed, which is an approach that works but still has holes (it's not like fundamental forces and laws in our universe exist for no reason, we just don't understand why they do what they do very well yet). After the Shadowlands, they exist because the First Ones crafted some exceedingly elaborate universal "machine" that consists of a bunch of forces in balance against one another (whether this addition is good or bad comes down to personal preference).

In that new iteration, the question of "Why?" becomes a lot more important, because we have sentient beings making a decision. Why did they make the cosmic forces and this elaborate machine? Well, probably for some purpose. The seventh would answer that purpose. They made the cosmos to do something involving the seventh. Contain it, destroy it, heal it, ward it off, surpass it. Who knows.

All additions are superfluous to this same extent, honestly. You always have a question "where did X come from" and two answers:
1) It just exists, don't think too hard about it
2) It came from Y.

The usual philosophical answer to this is "self-existent being" (since an infinitely recursive cycle backwards is nonsensical, though that's what Blizzard's seemingly setting the stage for from a Doylist perspective), which we used to have with the Light.

Then the First Ones happened because Reasons.

As current lore stands, we don't (and have never had) a reason for the existence of the cosmic forces. Prior to the Shadowlands, they simply existed, which is an approach that works but still has holes (it's not like fundamental forces and laws in our universe exist for no reason, we just don't understand why they do what they do very well yet). After the Shadowlands, they exist because the First Ones crafted some exceedingly elaborate universal "machine" that consists of a bunch of forces in balance against one another (whether this addition is good or bad comes down to personal preference).

But we did. We had the Light, which gradually came to host the Void, which led to the creation of the Twisting Nether (Fel) and the Great Dark (Order), followed by the emergence of Life and consequently Death. Then the First Ones happened and the Cosmic Forces were retroactively "equalized" into a set of ideas that existed simultaneously and on an equal level. We had a good, self-existent being in the Light, which was the default state of things, then it emerged into a set of other forces in a pretty reasonable sequence of events. They never just existed on their own save for the Light, and it made sense for the Light to exist on its own.

There's no reason that the seventh needs to be introduced if you want to answer "why did the First Ones make the cosmic balancing act?" with 1, but that leaves the question hanging.
There's no reason that the First Ones need to exist if you answer "Where did this cosmic balancing act come from" with 1, but as above, it leaves the question there. There's no reason that the cosmic balancing act needs to exist if you answer "Where did the void come from" with 1, but as above.
There's no reason that the Void needs to exist if you answer "Where did the Old Gods come from" with 1.

See previous answer.

Despite what most people think, I very much doubt Blizzard is trying to set up any sort of actually encounterable antagonist here. They view this expansion as a bookend to the previous extended arc, not as a transitional piece. It is unlikely that we will ever encounter, or probably even learn all that much about the Seventh, or the First Ones themselves. I imagine what happened here is that back during the initial writing of Legion, with the Legion's storyline coming to a close, and the foreknowledge that they were going to be offing the remains of the Old God threat, they were forced to grapple with having shown too much of their hand. This isn't a modern writing problem, but something that has been an issue since Vanilla when they allowed C'thun to be a killable raid boss.

If it happened to the Old Gods and the Legion, why would it not happen to this new force? Plus, "what is to come" makes it sound very imminent and physical.

With Legion on the drawing board and the Void not far off in narrative preparation, they saw a chance to reset as part of this bookend -> new chapter progression. In an effort to turn back their mistakes, they introduced the First Ones as a mysterious, unknowable group of beings, who unlike the Titans, don't have an appearance, and don't speak our language, and don't have minions who are just big humans. Then they needed, on paper, the slight hint of a motive for these new mysterious god-beings, so they introduced "the Seventh".

That way, when they move into the next chapter, they've effectively reset. We know everything there is to know about the Titans and Legion, and Old Gods, and the Void is simplistic, but in the next era they'll have the First Ones and Seventh to keep far off in the distance as a mysterious thing we don't really know much about. The new version of the Titans and the new version of the Old Gods.

I do like this idea in many ways, but the way they addressed it was very haphazard. And, again, "what is to come" suggests imminence.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm thinking plain monochrome, since Void is purple.

If this is the route they take I expect it to be the Devourers. They're monochrome, have a unique aesthetic as far as Warcraft villains go and most importantly of all they have 0 (zero) lines.

Past that I agree with @Hitei and have made that point too previously. Chronicle's chief long term failure is solving the Titans and Old Gods which were previously distant powers and in turn, essentially changing the Titans drastically from their previous portrayal as uncaring absentee Gods who operate more on sci-fi than fantasy rules. This demystified the setting and hemmed you in. The First Ones are basically a return to that, if not more so as they aren't human, have no lines, no names and no known members. If the 'Seventh Force' or 'what is to come' isn't system collapse, which would be my preference by an order of magnitude, then it would be the Old God equivalent as an ineffable outside actor we know little of.

[Hitei]

The usual philosophical answer to this is "self-existent being" (since an infinitely recursive cycle backwards is nonsensical, though that's what Blizzard's seemingly setting the stage for from a Doylist perspective), which we used to have with the Light.

But we did. We had the Light, which gradually came to host the Void, which led to the creation of the Twisting Nether (Fel) and the Great Dark (Order), followed by the emergence of Life and consequently Death. Then the First Ones happened and the Cosmic Forces were retroactively "equalized" into a set of ideas that existed simultaneously and on an equal level. We had a good, self-existent being in the Light, which was the default state of things, then it emerged into a set of other forces in a pretty reasonable sequence of events. They never just existed on their own save for the Light, and it made sense for the Light to exist on its own.

Eh.

Like I said, you're just going with option 1 here, answering with "self-existent" is just a sidestep along the lines of "don't think too hard about it". I think it's pretty unreasonable to describe the cyclical approach as "nonsensical" when the self-existent one is just answering "Yeah, but what is the Light, and where did it come from, and why is it doing all the stuff its doing for seemingly no reason at all?" with handwaving, "It just is". It's an approach, but by no means a better one.

You say "it made sense for the Light to exist on its own", but why? Why did the Light exist?

If it happened to the Old Gods and the Legion, why would it not happen to this new force? Plus, "what is to come" makes it sound very imminent and physical.

Because (I assume) the new force was very specifically written to have a background role, and written after they saw the problems play out with those previous examples. Ulduar has stained glass windows depicting the Old Gods--Zereth Mortis, as far as I'm aware, does not have even the slightest hint of what they might look like. Even their minions, the automa are deliberately designed with all sorts of forms that have no coherence, some are orbs with legs and arms, some are humanoid, some are like elementals, some are robot tanks.

If even going to the workshop/microrealm of the First Ones has the design decision to omit any actual representation or indication of them, then they don't plan on involving them anytime soon or at all.

I said this before in the initial cinematic discussion but "what is to come" doesn't really have agency. They could have gone with "what is coming" if they wanted imminence and threat, instead they went with the phrase that indicates something is going to (eventually) play out.

See:
"You will learn in the days to come"
vs
"You will learn in the coming days"

The first one is entirely open-ended, the speaker could be talking about an entire lifetime, or if to group of people, multiple generations. Where the second one probably means relatively soon.

[Teriz]

Just saw OW 2 announcement and remembered this https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...s-of-Galakaros


If You Shift time, he did get Sojourn and OW CBT.

If the announcements simply got pushed back, then the public test would be in May.

Like I said in another thread, it's possible that this leak was legit and the dates got moved around. We'll find out in April.

[Makorus]

Just saw OW 2 announcement and remembered this https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...s-of-Galakaros


If You Shift time, he did get Sojourn and OW CBT.

Sojourn was announced as a character back when OW2 was revealed.

[owequinox]

Sojourn was announced as a character back when OW2 was revealed.

Still though...getting an OW2 Beta date right after Blizz being completely silent about it for months? Kinda impressive.

[KainneAbsolute]

The domination marks over the Jailer persist after he lost his flesh. The Primus created magic that brands you forever.

I cant believe Primus is not the evil guy.

[Makorus]

Still though...getting an OW2 Beta date right after Blizz being completely silent about it for months? Kinda impressive.

https://twitter.com/FireTheGull/stat...98456811581441

https://twitter.com/Helba_The_AI/sta...17640653189121

https://twitter.com/OverwatchCaval/s...15407455277060

The Overwatch Beta happening soon was an open secret. This leak means nothing and is probably fake.

- - - Updated - - -

The domination marks over the Jailer persist after he lost his flesh. The Primus created magic that brands you forever.

I cant believe Primus is not the evil guy.

No one calling out the Primus is kinda fucked up tbh. Really weird.

[Hitei]

No one calling out the Primus is kinda fucked up tbh. Really weird.

Because he imprisoned Zovaal with magic? Most magic in-universe has a lasting, permanent effect if strong enough in scale.

[Makorus]

Because he imprisoned Zovaal with magic? Most magic in-universe has a lasting, permanent effect if strong enough in scale.

I mean, him inventing Domination magic as a whole. That whole school of magic is kinda fucked up, and the game kinda forgets that the Primus invented and created that entire school of magic.

[Hitei]

I mean, him inventing Domination magic as a whole. That whole school of magic is kinda fucked up, and the game kinda forgets that the Primus invented and created that entire school of magic.

That's fair.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

I mean, him inventing Domination magic as a whole. That whole school of magic is kinda fucked up, and the game kinda forgets that the Primus invented and created that entire school of magic.

I'd argue the final cinematic at least finally paints the Primus in the light we ought to see him, because you're absolutely right.
The game doesn't forget, it just doesn't emphasize that- because it's one of the narratives of Shadowlands:

History is written by the victors.

In this case, The Primus and the Eternals being the victors, have entirely painted Zovaal as the "big bag jailer" of the Shadowlands, all that's wrong with it, when THEY are his jailers, the makers of the Jailer.

The First Ones, who created The Primus, (and to a lesser extent on this, Denathrius) are the ones responsible for "The Jailer" because it's implied they either-

A: Ordered Domination magic into their pattern, and authorized The Primus to be it's primary wielder?
B: CREATED Domination Magic as well, and bestowed it upon The Primus.
or C: They indirectly created Domination through creating The Primus.

[Valysar]

What about Vol'jin ? We still have to wait another xpac to see the end of his story ? Iirc he's in Ardenweald, with the Spirit of Rezan and ... that's it.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

I'd argue the final cinematic at least finally paints the Primus in the light we ought to see him, because you're absolutely right.
The game doesn't forget, it just doesn't emphasize that- because it's one of the narratives of Shadowlands:

History is written by the victors.

In this case, The Primus and the Eternals being the victors, have entirely painted Zovaal as the "big bag jailer" of the Shadowlands, all that's wrong with it, when THEY are his jailers, the makers of the Jailer.

The First Ones, who created The Primus, (and to a lesser extent on this, Denathrius) are the ones responsible for "The Jailer" because it's implied they either-

A: Ordered Domination magic into their pattern, and authorized The Primus to be it's primary wielder?
B: CREATED Domination Magic as well, and bestowed it upon The Primus.
or C: They indirectly created Domination through creating The Primus.

People shocked that Zovaal has/had 'good intentions' just might not have gotten the point of his character, or perhaps that's me, but I feel it's been clear since before launch, at least going back as far as beta, he was a "framed character" shall we say.


It's like the story of the garden of Eden:

The claim is this 'Serpent' is the deceiver, tricking Eve to eat of the Fruit of Knowledge. Meanwhile when you read, it's written plain as day that the Serpent revealed to them that God's commands were a lie, to keep Adam and Eve subservient. That they would -not- die if they ate from the fruit, as told by God.

Strangely, there are millions who gloss over these simple hooks of the story, and think the secretive, punitive-of-truth-seeking Yahweh is still the good guy in that tale.


edit: my bad.. I meant to edit my last post not quote.

[Gloriandus]

People shocked that Zovaal has/had 'good intentions' just might not have gotten the point of his character, or perhaps that's me, but I feel it's been clear since before launch, at least going back as far as beta, he was a "framed character" shall we say.


It's like the story of the garden of Eden:

The claim is this 'Serpent' is the deceiver, tricking Eve to eat of the Fruit of Knowledge. Meanwhile when you read, it's written plain as day that the Serpent revealed to them that God's commands were a lie, to keep Adam and Eve subservient. That they would -not- die if they ate from the fruit, as told by God.

Strangely, there are millions who gloss over these simple hooks of the story, and think the secretive, punitive-of-truth-seeking Yahweh is still the good guy in that tale.


edit: my bad.. I meant to edit my last post not quote.

That's the theosophical interpretation of the fall, of course. It's actually far plainer: the serpent deceives them with "the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16) by the lie that they will becoming "like" God, and they bring not just physical death upon themselves, but spiritual separation from God. You're the one with the left-field interpretation here.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

That's the theosophical interpretation of the fall, of course. It's actually far plainer: the serpent deceives them with "the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16) by the lie that they will becoming "like" God, and they bring not just physical death upon themselves, but spiritual separation from God. You're the one with the left-field interpretation here.

What you've said is "what's told" by the Cult of The Primus, to use SL terms.

My "left-field interpretation" is through the lens that what you're being told by them is actively trying to push their 'truth', not the whole truth or real truth.

Yahweh/Yaldabaoth being "The World" and not the "The Father", using that John quote. 'spiritual separation from God' being scare-tactics.

becoming 'Like' 'God' being the act of expanding consciousness beyond the desired limitations of an Archon.