Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

If you personally don't like the idea of flight, I'm fine with your opinion and we can agree to disagree. But really, Blizzard intentionally designs the content to extend your time investment in game by forcing foot travel and not requiring to expand larger level design that accomodates flight as they did in the past. And that's just the direction they chose and have stuck to since WoD. It doesn't mean that's the only way WoW can be designed, because clearly we've had larger expansion zones before, and there are plenty of competitive MMO's that also have expansive zones with lots of verticality that are intentionally designed with flight in mind. I think there's an argument to make that Blizzard can also take WoW into this direction, especially for an expansion that could be designed around the concept of integrating flight specifically into the new zone through floating islands. You don't have to like the idea, but bringing up your reasons as though stealth and gathering in the open world would be rendered pointless is a pretty bad argument to make, especially if I'm talking about an entire new zone that is intentionally designed around having flight to travel around the world.

I heavily disagree that there was ever a time when flying truly accodomated flying in a way that elevated it in a gameplay sense. You certainly got a whole lot of grand vistas in zones like Twilight Highlands and Uldum, but I don't think this made the zone more engaging to play.

Take Storm Peaks for instance, a zone that required flying. It certainly looks impressive, but in gameplay terms all it really is, is killing a quest mob/picking up a quest item, mounting up, moving to the next one, and repeat. You don't have interesting commutes between quest givers, quests, or other quests, just aim your camera in the direction you need to go and hit autorun.
Compare this for instance to Stormheim in Legion. Which also looks stunning, but also has the ability to make the player experience the game in a way that really lends itself to the zone. Grappling hooks for quick movement adds a spice to that zone that players remember, the quest where you are tasked with scaling a mountain and ending on top looks impressive once you get up and really see the zone.

Or consider the difference a floating hub made in Icecrown, and in Maldraxxus.
In Icecrown it looks cool, but in gameplay terms it's just a platform with somequest givers on it. It doesnt offer any gameplay outside the tiny bit of disorientation you get the first time you land on it.
The Necropolis in Maldraxxus meanwhile offers the player something very simple, a moving platform with a parachute. Without flying this option becomes a landmark feature in the zone that draws attention and offers a unique flavor to the zone in addition to just looking kinda neat.


Lastly, I don't hate flying specifically. What I hate is the version of flying we have. It has no nuance, no weaknesses, no inherent mechanics that are fun to play around with. It's fun the first day you get it in a new zone, and after that it just becomes the new norm.
A better designed version of flying might prompt challenges that require skill, or the ability to finagle the mechanics to do unintended stuff. The most interesting nuance to flying is knowing that you fall faster than you can fly down, and teh trick where you can fly upside down.

Every good mechanic in a game should have easily recognizable weaknesses. Maybe you can't use it all the time, or it has gameplay tradeoffs compared to other modes like what Ground mounts have to Flight Masters.
Flying doesnt have that. Outside not being able to use it inside or in combat you can either use it and it trumps everything else, or you can't use it at all. The closest thing to a legitimate choice the player can make with it that happens in-game is the choice of whether running over to a quest mob is faster than mounting up and flying.

I would absolutely love if flying got a major revamp and actually became something that both required skill, and which had readily apparent weaknesses that leave it with a specific niche it's good at, rather than trumping all others.
I wouldnt necessarily mind if you wanted to use it to cross an entire continent, I just don't want to be the best option if you see a wall and cannot be assed to actually engage with the game to get past it and would rather use godmode.
A mechanic that I can become good at, and which rewards me for being good at it.

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Can you describe for me a zone which is elevated by flying, allows jumping puzzles and treasures, has enviromental obstacles like towers or hills, and which isnt a minefield of no-fly zones?

Because otherwise it just seems to me like you reluctantly agree that flying is detrimental to open world gameplay.

[Triceron]

Can you describe for me a zone which is elevated by flying, allows jumping puzzles and treasures, has enviromental obstacles like towers or hills, and which isnt a minefield of no-fly zones?

Because otherwise it just seems to me like you reluctantly agree that flying is detrimental to open world gameplay.

I could, but it would not be from WoW, and 'game vs game' discussion is against forum rules.

As I said, they've never put the effort into designing it before. It would be something new to WoW. And that's what people want to see? Something new.

Take Storm Peaks for instance, a zone that required flying.

Yes but we're talking about WoW design circa 2008. When was the last time you saw a jumping puzzle in Wrath? Level design has made massive improvements since that time, where they literally had huge pockets of 'nothingness' because they were focused on designing a vast place to explore more than a zone that has interesting content that actually involves flight.

I'm not talking about just designing a zone that is big and allows you to fly. I'm talking about a zone designed with flight in mind.

Lastly, I don't hate flying specifically. What I hate is the version of flying we have

And I think I've been adamantly clear that I'm not talking about what you hate about flying. I'm talking about designing new things that expand on what should have been expanded decades ago.

Blizzard choosing to double down on ground-centric gameplay and raids for end game progression does not mean that this is the only kind of content that can forever be designed for WoW. Otherwise, there's literally no innovation left to discuss since we can always talk about how 'innovative features failed in X expansion' or how 'no other expansion never featured an innovation feature like you're talking about' as a reason to dismiss any discussion.

[Sondrelk]

I could, but it would not be from WoW, and 'game vs game' discussion is against forum rules.

As I said, they've never put the effort into designing it before. It would be something new to WoW. And that's what people want to see? Something new.

Other games don't tend to have the OP flying mechanics WoW has, which is kinda my point.

And Blizzard has made several zones that required flying, and to my mind only a single zone that integrated it into gameplay, that being Vashj'ir.

And even that is beside the point, which is that any gameplay mechanic that can only be balanced by removing it is a shoddily implemented mechanic.
With flying mechanics in WoW being what they are there is no way to have a giant tower filled with enemies and a point of interest on top, and then balance it around flying. If you have it then the "correct" solution will always be to fly directly to the top ignoring all the enemies you can. And if this isn't true then the designers have to intentionally prevent flying from being a viable option at all, for instance by making it fully indoors.

[Pheraz]

Other games don't tend to have the OP flying mechanics WoW has, which is kinda my point.

And Blizzard has made several zones that required flying, and to my mind only a single zone that integrated it into gameplay, that being Vashj'ir.

And even that is beside the point, which is that any gameplay mechanic that can only be balanced by removing it is a shoddily implemented mechanic.
With flying mechanics in WoW being what they are there is no way to have a giant tower filled with enemies and a point of interest on top, and then balance it around flying. If you have it then the "correct" solution will always be to fly directly to the top ignoring all the enemies you can. And if this isn't true then the designers have to intentionally prevent flying from being a viable option at all, for instance by making it fully indoors.

Okay playing those what-if games... couldn't you just make an auto-dismount the moment you get shot by a arrow/frost bolt? Problem solved.

I think flying makes WoW fun and I think they currently have the golden middle with unlock flying but you don't need to cut one of your legs of to get it working like in WoD/Legion.

[Triceron]

And even that is beside the point, which is that any gameplay mechanic that can only be balanced by removing it is a shoddily implemented mechanic.
With flying mechanics in WoW being what they are there is no way to have a giant tower filled with enemies and a point of interest on top, and then balance it around flying. If you have it then the "correct" solution will always be to fly directly to the top ignoring all the enemies you can. And if this isn't true then the designers have to intentionally prevent flying from being a viable option at all, for instance by making it fully indoors.

So you don't remember doing the Joust quests in Molten Front? Or the Shattari Skyguard quests and Netherwing races in TBC? Or what about the Oculus dungeon where you literally are flying 'in a tower to get to the top including an end-boss combat that is balanced around flying'?

I mean we can even included the limited flying available in the Valyssra dream fight in ICC, or the Alysrazor fight where you need to collect stuff in the air. Those are also examples that can be applied on a larger scale with actual outdoor flight.

What are we actually arguing against here? You're finding arbitrary reasons to dismiss what has already been in the game. If you say you don't hate flying specifically, you're being pretty specific to ignoring its existence and relevance in quest and dungeon content.

[Raetary]

The problem with travel in wow is, it's just not fun.
It's a mindless activity that involves holding down a singular button to run at a set speed for 5 minutes in order to reach your destination.
It's not interesting in the slightest so people just want it over and done with quickly.
Steep zone design and daze mechanics don't help either, that just an annoyance that elongates the time you spend doing a mindless activity.

Blizzard either needs to fundamentally change how travel works in wow, or they just do the next best thing and expand on traversal heavily methods.
More and better placed Flight paths (no more fucking Bastions please, thanks very much), return the FP whistle, continue with the transport network idea, etc.

Until then, i'll stick to timegated flying.
Gives me time to traverse a new zone on the ground, and then the ability to skip the slog which it will eventually become after weeks/months of playing in them.

[Revamp Man]

But that's the problem of thinking "He wanted a cosmos United", it's clear he didn't wanted 6 autonomous forces, he wanted to rule them all.

So subversion and weakening of them served his purpose so none of them could come between him and his plans. If there's conflict between them, it only makes his goals easier.

It's just literally divide and conquer.

And again, his logic is about about how a fundamentally divided cosmos wouldn't be able to fight off the thread, so he should rule the cosmos instead. That's his sin, arrogance; I think the point is that sharing what he discovered with the other Pantheons wouldn't have made them a stronger united front because on his mind the only answer was a strong leader for all.

So Wrathion in MoP

[Sondrelk]

The problem with travel in wow is, it's just not fun.
It's a mindless activity that involves holding down a singular button to run at a set speed for 5 minutes in order to reach your destination.
It's not interesting in the slightest so people just want it over and done with quickly.
Steep zone design and daze mechanics don't help either, that just an annoyance that elongates the time you spend doing a mindless activity.

Blizzard either needs to fundamentally change how travel works in wow, or they just do the next best thing and expand on traversal heavily methods.
More and better placed Flight paths (no more fucking Bastions please, thanks very much), return the FP whistle, continue with the transport network idea, etc.

Until then, i'll stick to timegated flying.
Gives me time to traverse a new zone on the ground, and then the ability to skip the slog which it will eventually become after weeks/months of playing in them.

So your solution to boring open world is to make it even less engaging?
Your proposed solutions are not really about making the open world better, but by removing it piece by piece.

[Revamp Man]

The problem with travel in wow is, it's just not fun.
It's a mindless activity that involves holding down a singular button to run at a set speed for 5 minutes in order to reach your destination.
It's not interesting in the slightest so people just want it over and done with quickly.
Steep zone design and daze mechanics don't help either, that just an annoyance that elongates the time you spend doing a mindless activity.

Blizzard either needs to fundamentally change how travel works in wow, or they just do the next best thing and expand on traversal heavily methods.
More and better placed Flight paths (no more fucking Bastions please, thanks very much), return the FP whistle, continue with the transport network idea, etc.

Until then, i'll stick to timegated flying.
Gives me time to traverse a new zone on the ground, and then the ability to skip the slog which it will eventually become after weeks/months of playing in them.

Treasures are fun the first time

Flying let’s me stand getting them again

[Sondrelk]

So you don't remember doing the Joust quests in Molten Front? Or the Shattari Skyguard quests and Netherwing races in TBC? Or what about the Oculus dungeon where you literally are flying 'in a tower to get to the top including an end-boss combat that is balanced around flying'?

I mean we can even included the limited flying available in the Valyssra dream fight in ICC, or the Alysrazor fight where you need to collect stuff in the air. Those are also examples that can be applied on a larger scale with actual outdoor flight.

What are we actually arguing against here? You're finding arbitrary reasons to dismiss what has already been in the game. If you say you don't hate flying specifically, you're being pretty specific to ignoring its existence and relevance in quest and dungeon content.

Alysrazor had mechanics, it required the minimum amount of skill to not fail, so that wasn't much like what we have now at all.

The baseline flight we have in WoW is literally a button that lets you move with full 3D movement at 4 times regular running speed.
There is no mechanic that prevents you from hovering in place indefinitely, nothing to prevent you using pinpoint movement to land on anything your character can stand on, nothing to separate those that are experienced from those that are new.

To compare to a different game quickly. In GTA, flight is difficult to find at any time, requires some skill (not a large amount), and cannot be used for precise movements.
What this does mean however is that it is something you can become good at, and which creates organic moments of gameplay as it can be finagled to fit into other gameplay niches if you are skilled enough.
Maybe you want to fly through a tunnel, or land accurately on top of a mountain.

Flying in WoW does not have this. It does not have anything really except that sometimes you can't use it at all.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a game should not give me an ultimate option and no reason not to use it. No balancing act in choosing when to use it, no challenges i can do with it that give me enjoyment. In short, a badly designed gameplay system.


As I said, I don't hate flying, i just hate this version of it. Give me something that is momentum based. Something where I need to play well to gain height, and which punishes me for playing badly.
I would love a zone that has flying in such a way that I see a faraway island and I need to use my skills I have accrued to somehow keep my momentum and heigh enough to reach it before I fall down, instead of pressing autorun and not nodding off while this riveting gameplay plays out in front of me.

A want a version of flying where flying from the shoreline to the mountaintop without touching the ground is an achievement, not the norm.

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Treasures are fun the first time

Flying let’s me stand getting them again

But this just begs the question of why you need to get it again to begin with. Surely at that point you are done and can stop?

You wouldn't demand the ability to instakill raidbosses just because you have killed them once, would you?

[Triceron]

Alysrazor had mechanics, it required the minimum amount of skill to not fail, so that wasn't much like what we have now at all.

The baseline flight we have in WoW is literally a button that lets you move with full 3D movement at 4 times regular running speed.
There is no mechanic that prevents you from hovering in place indefinitely, nothing to prevent you using pinpoint movement to land on anything your character can stand on, nothing to separate those that are experienced from those that are new.

And you continue to ignore all the examples I gave of mechanics that expand flight beyond that. I mean, again, what are you arguing against here?

You're saying flight currently has no mechanics, and imply that a system with new mechanics wouldn't work because flight doesn't have any mechanics.

It sounds like a bad faith argument to me.

Flying in WoW does not have this. It does not have anything really except that sometimes you can't use it at all.

Nonsense. They have flight through vehicle control mechanics in quest mechanics on numerous occassions. Unfortunately most of them are designed with on-rails experience in mind, I'm sure there can be room to improve on the formula.

Imagine something like in Star Wars when the Millenium Falcon has to navigate through the asteroid field. Let's say there's a tunnel in a large cavern zone that offers an on-rails mini-quest that grants you access to the other side. If you wish to progress through it prompts you to activate the Vehicle-style on rails 'phase' that lets you access whatever is on the other side. To even access this tunnel, you need to have flight to get to it. There's both an exploratory challenge of finding this tunnel, and the challenge of progressing through it as a phased puzzle.

Just because you have access to mounted flight doesn't mean the entire world has to abide by the rules of that type of movement. It's no different than you questing in the open world and coming upon a quirky quest that requires operating some vehicle to achieve, rather than using your traditional abilities. Same can apply here, except we're just adapting it while you're in the air.

As for your regular flight and exploration, I don't think we need to change flight mechanics to play like Battlefield just to make it interesting. What we have works fine for world travel and world exploration. Open world travel isn't meant to be a rivetting experience. I mean, just the same, I would probably never equated mounted ground travel as being a riveting experience like a racing game.

As I said, I don't hate flying, i just hate this version of it. Give me something that is momentum based. Something where I need to play well to gain height, and which punishes me for playing badly.
I would love a zone that has flying in such a way that I see a faraway island and I need to use my skills I have accrued to somehow keep my momentum and heigh enough to reach it before I fall down, instead of pressing autorun and not nodding off while this riveting gameplay plays out in front of me.

Which confuses me why you're arguing against the idea of an expansion designed around having flight.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing against here, since at no point have I ever implied that the concept of an expansion designed around flight would be exactly like how WoW is designed right now except with flight.

[Sondrelk]

And you continue to ignore all the examples I gave of mechanics that expand flight beyond that. I mean, again, what are you arguing against here?

You're saying flight currently has no mechanics, and imply that a system with new mechanics wouldn't work because flight doesn't have any mechanics.

It sounds like a bad faith argument to me.



Which confuses me why you're arguing against the idea of an expansion designed around having flight.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing against here, since at no point have I ever implied that the concept of an expansion designed around flight would be exactly like how WoW is designed right now except with flight.

Probably because I am a pessimist, and WoD showed that any attempt at Blizzard on making the game more like a game usually ends with the players complaining that they have to actually play it now.

If the hypothetical flying based expansion had actual engaging mechanics for flying then I would absolutely be down for that. I just don't think it's going to happen, because some players will always claim that running from the flight path to the raid entrance is literally the worst gameplay moment in history.



Also because when you say flying I assume you mean the version of flying we have, not a new movement mechanic that involves flight, or better yet an actual revamp to flying.

But if that is what you intended then I will absolutely admit I was wrong.

[Raetary]

So your solution to boring open world is to make it even less engaging?

How engaging the open world is, is dependant on the content it contains.
Not by spending 10 minuts running from A coordinates to B coordinates.

Extra traversal methods do not take away from events, quests, puzzles and etc.
They would still be there, you would still need to walk to them, you'd just do it quicker and be less frustrated and/or inconvenienced.

Your proposed solutions are not really about making the open world better, but by removing it piece by piece.

My proposed solution is literally Ardenweald:


Lots of relatively well placed flight paths and an extensive mushroom portal system.
I'd just return the FP whistle and either move around or add some of more Portals/Flight paths. (there is absolutely no need to have a portal just above the Flight master at Glitterfall Basin for example.

Traversing the zone worked perfectly up until flying got introduced and made every travel option irrelevant.
Also helped that, unlike Bastion and Revendreth, it had more likable terrain design.

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You are, of course, free to tell me how shitty Ardenweald really was and how the zone was not engaging at all!
Part of me thinks that i won't believe you tho.

[Sondrelk]

How engaging the open world is, is dependant on the content it contains.
Not by spending 10 minuts running from A coordinates to B coordinates.

Extra traversal methods do not take away from events, quests, puzzles and etc.
They would still be there, you would still need to walk to them, you'd just do it quicker and be less frustrated and/or inconvenienced.




My proposed solution is literally Ardenweald:


Lots of relatively well placed flight paths and an extensive mushroom portal system.
I'd just return the FP whistle and either move around or add some of more Portals/Flight paths. (there is absolutely no need to have a portal just above the Flight master at Glitterfall Basin for example.

Traversing the zone worked perfectly up until flying got introduced and made every travel option irrelevant.
Also helped that, unlike Bastion and Revendreth, it had more likable terrain design.

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You are, of course, free to tell me how shitty Ardenweald really was and how the zone was not engaging at all!
Part of me thinks that i won't believe you tho.

No, i am down for Ardenweald, I just think there is such a thing as too much freedom in movement, Legion was the expansion I was thinking of where it really felt like there was a flight path every ten steps.

Bastion i agree definitely should have had at least one more flight path, probably even twom that zone felt far too dependant on the Kyrian teleportation network.
Maldraxxus I think hit that ideal swett spot where you could get to anywhere easily, and the extra portals didn't feel like they made you spoiled for choice.

[Izalla]

Just throwing in here that I was a massive fan of the Mechagon flight system where you had a limited use object with a rather short duration to use one activated, where if you got too close to an obstacle you had to hit the ground fast to avoid being blasted out of the sky. And you just double jumped to activate it. It was very limited in availability and time and yet extremely freeing while active. I had soooo much fun with it.

[AngerFork]

Which Mechagon flight system was this? I mostly remember Mechagon flight as being regular flight with an occasional minor dip down to reset stacks when they got too high.

[Adoxe]

Which Mechagon flight system was this? I mostly remember Mechagon flight as being regular flight with an occasional minor dip down to reset stacks when they got too high.

The Jetpack

[Civciv]

Apparently, Mal'ganis and Kintessa have been several dungeon and raid bosses.... https://twitter.com/BenGrandblade/st...-c0Uz8dGw&s=19

[Harbour]

WoD was the last time i enjoyed the traveling, including non-flying, or at least could easily tolerate it. Zones were designed old-fashioned, and in a good way.
This moment when i went into Spires of Arak, and run under the trees, listening to quiet ambient, just to see this, was one of the moments that i will remember forever, AND i still visit it occasionally just to run around and embrace the atmosphere and gorgeous landscapes.



Starting with the Legion Blizzard went into vertical and tight zones, focused on rush. You rush because you want to get free from doing ground shit, get rid of annoyingly designed levels. Blizzard does it purposefully to artificially increase the size of the carrot that the ability to fly is.

[Izalla]

Which Mechagon flight system was this? I mostly remember Mechagon flight as being regular flight with an occasional minor dip down to reset stacks when they got too high.

As Adoxe said, the jetpack. I liked that I couldn't always fly all the time, but in exchange I got to fly in an even better way (double jump activated, could interact with objects, it was quicker and more convenient than flight form!). You chose when you use your jetpack and then while it was active you had to go go nuts to get as much use out of it as possible while you still had it. I'm sure other people probably farmed enough mats to have a basically unlimited supply of them but my supply was limited and I enjoyed the trade off.

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WoD was the last time i enjoyed the traveling, including non-flying, or at least could easily tolerate it. Zones were designed old-fashioned, and in a good way.
This moment when i went into Spires of Arak, and run under the trees, listening to quiet ambient, just to see this, was one of the moments that i will remember forever, AND i still visit it occasionally just to run around and embrace the atmosphere and gorgeous landscapes.



Starting with the Legion Blizzard went into vertical and tight zones, focused on rush. You rush because you want to get free from doing ground shit, get rid of annoyingly designed levels. Blizzard does it purposefully to artificially increase the size of the carrot that the ability to fly is.

Dude same (regarding Spires). I had a screenshot of Spires at night as my desktop background for a while after WoD came out and my god I was so happy with that level of darkness and ambience.