Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Triceron]

Alysrazor had mechanics, it required the minimum amount of skill to not fail, so that wasn't much like what we have now at all.

The baseline flight we have in WoW is literally a button that lets you move with full 3D movement at 4 times regular running speed.
There is no mechanic that prevents you from hovering in place indefinitely, nothing to prevent you using pinpoint movement to land on anything your character can stand on, nothing to separate those that are experienced from those that are new.

And you continue to ignore all the examples I gave of mechanics that expand flight beyond that. I mean, again, what are you arguing against here?

You're saying flight currently has no mechanics, and imply that a system with new mechanics wouldn't work because flight doesn't have any mechanics.

It sounds like a bad faith argument to me.

Flying in WoW does not have this. It does not have anything really except that sometimes you can't use it at all.

Nonsense. They have flight through vehicle control mechanics in quest mechanics on numerous occassions. Unfortunately most of them are designed with on-rails experience in mind, I'm sure there can be room to improve on the formula.

Imagine something like in Star Wars when the Millenium Falcon has to navigate through the asteroid field. Let's say there's a tunnel in a large cavern zone that offers an on-rails mini-quest that grants you access to the other side. If you wish to progress through it prompts you to activate the Vehicle-style on rails 'phase' that lets you access whatever is on the other side. To even access this tunnel, you need to have flight to get to it. There's both an exploratory challenge of finding this tunnel, and the challenge of progressing through it as a phased puzzle.

Just because you have access to mounted flight doesn't mean the entire world has to abide by the rules of that type of movement. It's no different than you questing in the open world and coming upon a quirky quest that requires operating some vehicle to achieve, rather than using your traditional abilities. Same can apply here, except we're just adapting it while you're in the air.

As for your regular flight and exploration, I don't think we need to change flight mechanics to play like Battlefield just to make it interesting. What we have works fine for world travel and world exploration. Open world travel isn't meant to be a rivetting experience. I mean, just the same, I would probably never equated mounted ground travel as being a riveting experience like a racing game.

As I said, I don't hate flying, i just hate this version of it. Give me something that is momentum based. Something where I need to play well to gain height, and which punishes me for playing badly.
I would love a zone that has flying in such a way that I see a faraway island and I need to use my skills I have accrued to somehow keep my momentum and heigh enough to reach it before I fall down, instead of pressing autorun and not nodding off while this riveting gameplay plays out in front of me.

Which confuses me why you're arguing against the idea of an expansion designed around having flight.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing against here, since at no point have I ever implied that the concept of an expansion designed around flight would be exactly like how WoW is designed right now except with flight.

[Sondrelk]

And you continue to ignore all the examples I gave of mechanics that expand flight beyond that. I mean, again, what are you arguing against here?

You're saying flight currently has no mechanics, and imply that a system with new mechanics wouldn't work because flight doesn't have any mechanics.

It sounds like a bad faith argument to me.



Which confuses me why you're arguing against the idea of an expansion designed around having flight.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing against here, since at no point have I ever implied that the concept of an expansion designed around flight would be exactly like how WoW is designed right now except with flight.

Probably because I am a pessimist, and WoD showed that any attempt at Blizzard on making the game more like a game usually ends with the players complaining that they have to actually play it now.

If the hypothetical flying based expansion had actual engaging mechanics for flying then I would absolutely be down for that. I just don't think it's going to happen, because some players will always claim that running from the flight path to the raid entrance is literally the worst gameplay moment in history.



Also because when you say flying I assume you mean the version of flying we have, not a new movement mechanic that involves flight, or better yet an actual revamp to flying.

But if that is what you intended then I will absolutely admit I was wrong.

[Raetary]

So your solution to boring open world is to make it even less engaging?

How engaging the open world is, is dependant on the content it contains.
Not by spending 10 minuts running from A coordinates to B coordinates.

Extra traversal methods do not take away from events, quests, puzzles and etc.
They would still be there, you would still need to walk to them, you'd just do it quicker and be less frustrated and/or inconvenienced.

Your proposed solutions are not really about making the open world better, but by removing it piece by piece.

My proposed solution is literally Ardenweald:


Lots of relatively well placed flight paths and an extensive mushroom portal system.
I'd just return the FP whistle and either move around or add some of more Portals/Flight paths. (there is absolutely no need to have a portal just above the Flight master at Glitterfall Basin for example.

Traversing the zone worked perfectly up until flying got introduced and made every travel option irrelevant.
Also helped that, unlike Bastion and Revendreth, it had more likable terrain design.

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You are, of course, free to tell me how shitty Ardenweald really was and how the zone was not engaging at all!
Part of me thinks that i won't believe you tho.

[Sondrelk]

How engaging the open world is, is dependant on the content it contains.
Not by spending 10 minuts running from A coordinates to B coordinates.

Extra traversal methods do not take away from events, quests, puzzles and etc.
They would still be there, you would still need to walk to them, you'd just do it quicker and be less frustrated and/or inconvenienced.




My proposed solution is literally Ardenweald:


Lots of relatively well placed flight paths and an extensive mushroom portal system.
I'd just return the FP whistle and either move around or add some of more Portals/Flight paths. (there is absolutely no need to have a portal just above the Flight master at Glitterfall Basin for example.

Traversing the zone worked perfectly up until flying got introduced and made every travel option irrelevant.
Also helped that, unlike Bastion and Revendreth, it had more likable terrain design.

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You are, of course, free to tell me how shitty Ardenweald really was and how the zone was not engaging at all!
Part of me thinks that i won't believe you tho.

No, i am down for Ardenweald, I just think there is such a thing as too much freedom in movement, Legion was the expansion I was thinking of where it really felt like there was a flight path every ten steps.

Bastion i agree definitely should have had at least one more flight path, probably even twom that zone felt far too dependant on the Kyrian teleportation network.
Maldraxxus I think hit that ideal swett spot where you could get to anywhere easily, and the extra portals didn't feel like they made you spoiled for choice.

[Izalla]

Just throwing in here that I was a massive fan of the Mechagon flight system where you had a limited use object with a rather short duration to use one activated, where if you got too close to an obstacle you had to hit the ground fast to avoid being blasted out of the sky. And you just double jumped to activate it. It was very limited in availability and time and yet extremely freeing while active. I had soooo much fun with it.

[AngerFork]

Which Mechagon flight system was this? I mostly remember Mechagon flight as being regular flight with an occasional minor dip down to reset stacks when they got too high.

[Adoxe]

Which Mechagon flight system was this? I mostly remember Mechagon flight as being regular flight with an occasional minor dip down to reset stacks when they got too high.

The Jetpack

[Civciv]

Apparently, Mal'ganis and Kintessa have been several dungeon and raid bosses.... https://twitter.com/BenGrandblade/st...-c0Uz8dGw&s=19

[Harbour]

WoD was the last time i enjoyed the traveling, including non-flying, or at least could easily tolerate it. Zones were designed old-fashioned, and in a good way.
This moment when i went into Spires of Arak, and run under the trees, listening to quiet ambient, just to see this, was one of the moments that i will remember forever, AND i still visit it occasionally just to run around and embrace the atmosphere and gorgeous landscapes.



Starting with the Legion Blizzard went into vertical and tight zones, focused on rush. You rush because you want to get free from doing ground shit, get rid of annoyingly designed levels. Blizzard does it purposefully to artificially increase the size of the carrot that the ability to fly is.

[Izalla]

Which Mechagon flight system was this? I mostly remember Mechagon flight as being regular flight with an occasional minor dip down to reset stacks when they got too high.

As Adoxe said, the jetpack. I liked that I couldn't always fly all the time, but in exchange I got to fly in an even better way (double jump activated, could interact with objects, it was quicker and more convenient than flight form!). You chose when you use your jetpack and then while it was active you had to go go nuts to get as much use out of it as possible while you still had it. I'm sure other people probably farmed enough mats to have a basically unlimited supply of them but my supply was limited and I enjoyed the trade off.

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WoD was the last time i enjoyed the traveling, including non-flying, or at least could easily tolerate it. Zones were designed old-fashioned, and in a good way.
This moment when i went into Spires of Arak, and run under the trees, listening to quiet ambient, just to see this, was one of the moments that i will remember forever, AND i still visit it occasionally just to run around and embrace the atmosphere and gorgeous landscapes.



Starting with the Legion Blizzard went into vertical and tight zones, focused on rush. You rush because you want to get free from doing ground shit, get rid of annoyingly designed levels. Blizzard does it purposefully to artificially increase the size of the carrot that the ability to fly is.

Dude same (regarding Spires). I had a screenshot of Spires at night as my desktop background for a while after WoD came out and my god I was so happy with that level of darkness and ambience.

[Kiivar86]

Apparently, Mal'ganis and Kintessa have been several dungeon and raid bosses.... https://twitter.com/BenGrandblade/st...-c0Uz8dGw&s=19

That's a bit odd. I mean I know that's their thing usually but this feels like "see, see? They were around all this time" thing like they tried with the Jailer being behind everything.

edit: The tweeter guy says it pretty well how this makes Zovaal behind so much. Feels dumb. Why even infiltrate and imitate other demons when you're part of the Legion?

[Catastrophy349]

That's a bit odd. I mean I know that's their thing usually but this feels like "see, see? They were around all this time" thing like they tried with the Jailer being behind everything.

edit: The tweeter guy says it pretty well how this makes Zovaal behind so much. Feels dumb. Why even infiltrate and imitate other demons when you're part of the Legion?

This fixes everything! Lore is saved. Thanks for sharing this!

[Revamp Man]

Alysrazor had mechanics, it required the minimum amount of skill to not fail, so that wasn't much like what we have now at all.

The baseline flight we have in WoW is literally a button that lets you move with full 3D movement at 4 times regular running speed.
There is no mechanic that prevents you from hovering in place indefinitely, nothing to prevent you using pinpoint movement to land on anything your character can stand on, nothing to separate those that are experienced from those that are new.

To compare to a different game quickly. In GTA, flight is difficult to find at any time, requires some skill (not a large amount), and cannot be used for precise movements.
What this does mean however is that it is something you can become good at, and which creates organic moments of gameplay as it can be finagled to fit into other gameplay niches if you are skilled enough.
Maybe you want to fly through a tunnel, or land accurately on top of a mountain.

Flying in WoW does not have this. It does not have anything really except that sometimes you can't use it at all.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a game should not give me an ultimate option and no reason not to use it. No balancing act in choosing when to use it, no challenges i can do with it that give me enjoyment. In short, a badly designed gameplay system.


As I said, I don't hate flying, i just hate this version of it. Give me something that is momentum based. Something where I need to play well to gain height, and which punishes me for playing badly.
I would love a zone that has flying in such a way that I see a faraway island and I need to use my skills I have accrued to somehow keep my momentum and heigh enough to reach it before I fall down, instead of pressing autorun and not nodding off while this riveting gameplay plays out in front of me.

A want a version of flying where flying from the shoreline to the mountaintop without touching the ground is an achievement, not the norm.

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But this just begs the question of why you need to get it again to begin with. Surely at that point you are done and can stop?

You wouldn't demand the ability to instakill raidbosses just because you have killed them once, would you?

Respawning treasures with rare drops

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How engaging the open world is, is dependant on the content it contains.
Not by spending 10 minuts running from A coordinates to B coordinates.

Extra traversal methods do not take away from events, quests, puzzles and etc.
They would still be there, you would still need to walk to them, you'd just do it quicker and be less frustrated and/or inconvenienced.




My proposed solution is literally Ardenweald:


Lots of relatively well placed flight paths and an extensive mushroom portal system.
I'd just return the FP whistle and either move around or add some of more Portals/Flight paths. (there is absolutely no need to have a portal just above the Flight master at Glitterfall Basin for example.

Traversing the zone worked perfectly up until flying got introduced and made every travel option irrelevant.
Also helped that, unlike Bastion and Revendreth, it had more likable terrain design.

- - - Updated - - -

You are, of course, free to tell me how shitty Ardenweald really was and how the zone was not engaging at all!
Part of me thinks that i won't believe you tho.

Kyrian in bastion is insane for travel
Multiple teleports and your personal beacon

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Apparently, Mal'ganis and Kintessa have been several dungeon and raid bosses.... https://twitter.com/BenGrandblade/st...-c0Uz8dGw&s=19

So who wants to beat the writers with soap and a sock?

[DiscipleofCazicThule]

Apparently, Mal'ganis and Kintessa have been several dungeon and raid bosses.... https://twitter.com/BenGrandblade/st...-c0Uz8dGw&s=19

That just screams Reverse Flash shenanigans to me. "It was me, Barr...I mean, Mawwalker!"

[Ersula]

Apparently, Mal'ganis and Kintessa have been several dungeon and raid bosses.... https://twitter.com/BenGrandblade/st...-c0Uz8dGw&s=19

That just screams Reverse Flash shenanigans to me. "It was me, Barr...I mean, Mawwalker!"

WoW RP Twitter is somehow the worst headcanoneers the community has: Especially Ben "Bad Faith Actor" Grandblade.

Mal'Ganis & Kintessa turning into past bosses does not imply they were these people all along. They're just turning into them because they can turn into anybody. Occam's Razor: Don't buy into the worst possible interpretation of something just so you can complain about plot holes created by you being a bad faith actor.

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So Wrathion in MoP

I wonder if they will do a scene like Sylvanas vs Saurfang again because most players don't experience these big storyline endings when they're at the end of expansions: Most people missed the scene where Wrathion freaks out, turns into a little baby dragon, having a fit about one faction not destroying the other like he wanted. Or The Hidden need, where they establish Brill has already been rebuilt before Shadowlands.

[delphiskye]

the dragon theory just got another point new inactive portal in the dream-way between Feralas and Moonglade. They are doing somthing.. old items are getting put in new houses completely empty in 3 zones, in eastern kingdoms the water has turned toxic green in Loch Modan and wetlands has golden glowy eyed orcs in the hills and most of the Twilight cultists are gone or renamed

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Just to add onto this, this isn't a Sargeras scenario where he thinks the world and people living in it are basically okay in principle and when everything is clean they can start doing that again but without the bug that made him want to kill everyone. The Bald Man's end state is a cosmos-wide Maw where the only person who exists is him and everything else runs on factory settings. If there's anyone else present at all it's Torghast trash mobs.

Indeed. It is WILD how WoW managed to skirt any theology in the expansion about the Afterlife (?????) But he basically wants to be God in this new universe.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Apparently, Mal'ganis and Kintessa have been several dungeon and raid bosses.... https://twitter.com/BenGrandblade/st...-c0Uz8dGw&s=19

Dread lords return to there original form on death so there’s no way they were these bosses when we downed them, it’s possible they could have pretending to be them at some point before death or after there deaths to gather info pretend there still Alice ect, but there mostly nobody’s so that tells us nothin.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

So Wrathion in MoP

See, that's an interesting comparison, because Wrathion never positions himself as the head of this new order. Wrathion is actually the altruistic, yet ruthless, "for the greater good" approach to this scenario, while Zovaal comes across as self serving.

The fact that Zovaal comes across as a more self-centered Wrathion, AND in a Cosmic level, shows how thin his character actually is.

[Super Dickmann]

Apparently, Mal'ganis and Kintessa have been several dungeon and raid bosses.... https://twitter.com/BenGrandblade/st...-c0Uz8dGw&s=19

No, it's a) chiefly a reference b) irrelevant to the status of those bosses all of which left bodies. Dreadlords can imitate you without you being dead and revert to their original form on death. Mal'ganis does it to you in this very patch. In as much as this has any lore relevance, the only thing that can be gleamed is that the pair imitated these bosses for a time. But in reality, it's just an in-joke because the whole boss is based on pretending to be other people. Lore twitter are once again hyperventilating ninnies exposure to which will rot your brain.

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Indeed. It is WILD how WoW managed to skirt any theology in the expansion about the Afterlife (?????) But he basically wants to be God in this new universe.

Shadowlands has some vague interest in fleshing out its own rules and discussing shit like fate, determinism, personhood, whatever. It does so almost entirely in side documents however. What it has significant interest in is its turgid soap opera plot. What it has zero interest in is societies and theology hence why the game doesn't care one iota about having absolutely anyone react to their belief system being proven wrong or the implications of knowing objectively that anyone you kill or even granny passing away in her sleep will end up burning in the pits of hell.