Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Super Dickmann]

Kiljaeden should have been the end boss of Legion. Sargeras should have remained a mystery, and we never should have fought a titan. Kiljaeden could have been on Argus. Guldan would then be the final boss of Tomb of Sargeras.

This is true. The Tomb of Sargeras story even built up to it by introducing us to Kil'jaeden's palace in Argus which is described in some detail as a decadent golden loft only to never feature in game and for KJ to get one of the worst send-offs out there. It essentially pigeonholed them to make all of Argus consist of new characters. It didn't affect much because Sargeras worked as a distant force of nature villain, but it really showed in Antorus consisting of C-list villains.

As for the 'all just a dream' thing, it's retarded. If you're going to retcon things, axing SL but keeping BFA is like curing yourself of a severe flu when you've got multiple sclerosis. If you're going to retcon, you cut everything after either WC3 or at latest Vanilla and split from there.

[Lady Atia]

This is true. The Tomb of Sargeras story even built up to it by introducing us to Kil'jaeden's palace in Argus which is described in some detail as a decadent golden loft only to never feature in game and for KJ to get one of the worst send-offs out there. It essentially pigeonholed them to make all of Argus consist of new characters. It didn't affect much because Sargeras worked as a distant force of nature villain, but it really showed in Antorus consisting of C-list villains.

That's why they should have gone with Argus as a (this time planned as) mini Expansion ala WoD instead of a Patch. First Tier could have been KJ's palace (maybe even with our timeline Yrel as his corrupted Eredar daughter) and second Tier Antorus.

[delphiskye]

Baby, you're pretty high on that cloud, it's always been like this.

this xpac has seen alotta changes the gnolls in the top of wetlands got eaten by ooze and went moldy the dwarf camps in one area got sent up in flames by rampart fire elementals the alexon farm in westfall has lost a chunk to the strange swirly thing. Some times you loose track of whats new and whats not i do know they have also added back a bunch of gear they took out in cata too from classic dungeons and raids the past week or so higher rez models of some no cloud this a speculation thread i figured i would throw that i had found out and let others speculate

[Chickat]

You really have horrible ideas and I'm glad you aren't a writer for WoW. Reboots are the worst thing ever invented by humanity and "it was all just a dream" is the weakest type of reboot on top. And we already had Kil'jaeden as an end-of-expansion boss during TBC. Argus was fine as an endboss although they did the same mistake as with the whole Shadowlands - instead of building up the lore throughout a few expansions they just dropped him as a "surprise". Also we don't need "mysteries" that last forever - the strength of the World of Warcraft was always to show and explore these "mysteries", not have them unanswered. In that regards Shadowlands was actually awesome - it showed us the Afterlife. Sadly not in enough detail, we actually need a propper chronicle style book that tells us it's history instead of the weak "mysteries" you cry for.

At least it was all a dream salvages 25 years of lore.

- - - Updated - - -

Bfa really only ruins sylvanas. Shadowlands ruins everything.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

This is true. The Tomb of Sargeras story even built up to it by introducing us to Kil'jaeden's palace in Argus which is described in some detail as a decadent golden loft only to never feature in game and for KJ to get one of the worst send-offs out there. It essentially pigeonholed them to make all of Argus consist of new characters. It didn't affect much because Sargeras worked as a distant force of nature villain, but it really showed in Antorus consisting of C-list villains.

As for the 'all just a dream' thing, it's retarded. If you're going to retcon things, axing SL but keeping BFA is like curing yourself of a severe flu when you've got multiple sclerosis. If you're going to retcon, you cut everything after either WC3 or at latest Vanilla and split from there.

I think retconning at all may be an issue. It would involve axing an entire nearly-two-decades of lore from the game, and possibly from reality in general, which would probably not be taken kindly by some lore people. I can see the use of it, but I'm honestly not sure if it could ever happy in history.

As for Argus, I'd say that it could've been much better—a massive, sprawling temple-city to Sargeras, culminating in us fighting a renewed avatar or Kil'Jaeden (possibly both Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde, if they'd have been willing to skim over Mythic Archimonde) at the peak of the tallest tower or near the very depths of Argus, depending on which way they want to go with it. A massive cityscape could sprawl beneath it, permitting for a fittingly grandiose sendoff to the Legion. Perhaps Antorus should've been more of a proper "Very Definitely Final Level" kind of zone, situated in the middle of now-Eredath.

[Revamp Man]

So all the leaks have led to people saying “historically blizzard does this with that” and it has me thinking about something extremely unlikely

SL skipped races and classes
BfA skipped classes
Legion had both technically

WoD skipped races and classes
MoP had both
Cata skipped classes


By the power of extreme optimism and wanting them to explore the side of draconic lore and magics I use this totally loose pattern to say we are getting a dragonkin race and Dragonsworn class

With all the extra stuff they’ve been doing for dragons recently you could squeeze a raid and 8 dungeons out of different enemies

[Fahrad Wagner]

So all the leaks have led to people saying “historically blizzard does this with that” and it has me thinking about something extremely unlikely

SL skipped races and classes
BfA skipped classes
Legion had both technically

WoD skipped races and classes
MoP had both
Cata skipped classes


By the power of extreme optimism and wanting them to explore the side of draconic lore and magics I use this totally loose pattern to say we are getting a dragonkin race and Dragonsworn class

With all the extra stuff they’ve been doing for dragons recently you could squeeze a raid and 8 dungeons out of different enemies

That would be most welcome. A Pandaria situation of some sorts

[Super Dickmann]

I think retconning at all may be an issue. It would involve axing an entire nearly-two-decades of lore from the game, and possibly from reality in general, which would probably not be taken kindly by some lore people. I can see the use of it, but I'm honestly not sure if it could ever happy in history.

As for Argus, I'd say that it could've been much better—a massive, sprawling temple-city to Sargeras, culminating in us fighting a renewed avatar or Kil'Jaeden (possibly both Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde, if they'd have been willing to skim over Mythic Archimonde) at the peak of the tallest tower or near the very depths of Argus, depending on which way they want to go with it. A massive cityscape could sprawl beneath it, permitting for a fittingly grandiose sendoff to the Legion. Perhaps Antorus should've been more of a proper "Very Definitely Final Level" kind of zone, situated in the middle of now-Eredath.

Personally I'm against whole of expansion retcons especially ones that cut off at such a point that it leaves most of the worst elements still there and only target the topical issue de jour. Retcons are part and parcel of Warcraft, but targeted retcons to fix the viability of the races long-term for storytelling are what's worthwhile, not chopping out expansions. With the exception of Mac'aree and the ending parts of the raid you could really feel the asset reuse stinging in Argus, especially after the Broken Chore was already just a bigger version of the Legion incursion areas across the Broken Isles. Argus communicated scale extremely well, that is the thing I appreciate the most about it. The Mac'aree skybox is probably my favorite in the entire game for that reason. Where it failed is in communicating that this is the heart of the Legion. Torghast's interiors better sell being inside some vast, uncaring machine, while the need to include the requisite rebellious race and reuse as many assets as possible meant that you never get the impression that Argus was the Legion's true crowning jewel, totally controlled from top to bottom, not helped by it not having its own aesthetic identity.

[Revamp Man]

That would be most welcome. A Pandaria situation of some sorts

I miss MoP’s feeling if that makes sense

The Dino island
The unique rep mounts
The zandalari rares
The strangely dark stories hidden among goofy jokes (jade witch and the depressed panda)
Rares being rare
Treasures with cool weapons that were boa

The awesome raids

[Raetary]

here is the water from the loch and the part of wetlands beside it https://imgur.com/W6Rg5Uk https://imgur.com/HazF7bT the former cultists in Stonecore https://imgur.com/3EEafnJ the orcs someone corrected me they were Dragonmaw

Again, none of this is new.
Its exaclty how it looked like since the cataclysm.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Personally I'm against whole of expansion retcons especially ones that cut off at such a point that it leaves most of the worst elements still there and only target the topical issue de jour. Retcons are part and parcel of Warcraft, but targeted retcons to fix the viability of the races long-term for storytelling are what's worthwhile, not chopping out expansions. With the exception of Mac'aree and the ending parts of the raid you could really feel the asset reuse stinging in Argus, especially after the Broken Chore was already just a bigger version of the Legion incursion areas across the Broken Isles. Argus communicated scale extremely well, that is the thing I appreciate the most about it. The Mac'aree skybox is probably my favorite in the entire game for that reason. Where it failed is in communicating that this is the heart of the Legion. Torghast's interiors better sell being inside some vast, uncaring machine, while the need to include the requisite rebellious race and reuse as many assets as possible meant that you never get the impression that Argus was the Legion's true crowning jewel, totally controlled from top to bottom, not helped by it not having its own aesthetic identity.

One interesting way I think they could've gone for Argus, if they really didn't want to actually make it a functional city, could've perhaps been to make it crumbling—instead of the Army of the Light being a small fringe group that is barely surviving, it could've been interesting if they were heading a simultaneous spearhead into Argus from the other side and some Legion cities were already in disrepair from bombardment. It could've felt almost like Fallout, seeing a massive Eredar city broken into pieces as spears of light rain down every so often—perhaps even the bombardments from Legion vessels could've been two-pronged, with both the Army of the Light and Legion firing them off to make Argus really feel like an urban warzone.

Conversely, I would've preferred the idea of Argus being a living civilization. Now-Eredath could've been – if they really had to reuse resources like they did – a city made from WoD's Shattrath resources, with the addition of the aforementioned skyboxes to demonstrate the scale of the Legion's cities. This would've been where the Legion's elite would live, full of Warlocks and other sorcerers. Not to say the Void plot couldn't have been used—we'd come upon the Void striking back at the Legion, potentially even aiding the Shadowguard instead of fighting them to help decimate the Legion and through Eredath into chaos, or we could fight both simultaneously and see Eredath consumed by the Void in real-time (to also give us reason to fear it).

Krokun, to fit with this, would've been an industrial slum inhabited entirely by slaves and the lower castes of the Legion. The brutish Demons, such as Felguards and Mo'arg, would patrol run-down slums filled with industrial smog (perhaps the smog could've been an impediment to vision as a random event?) and choking gasses emerging at random points. This would have been the closest to the Argus we got, and would be a place that's constantly in disrepair, keeping the lava and rocks we've grown so used to now. It would have featured the random bombardments we got in Antoran Wastes, as to demonstrate the Legion's willingness to fire on its own people. Its skybox would be filled with factories and chimneys therefrom. The aesthetic would be akin to Mordor.

Antoran Wastes, finally, would be what it is in the current game—the military heart of Argus. Rather than just being a rock with a few bridges and one big fortress in the middle, the whole thing would've been built around a big military heart of the Legion, full of every kind of Demon and under bombardment from the Army of the Light. It would have a skybox that would be full of ships (somewhat like the one we got) and the towers of distant fortresses. The mob density, I think, was something they did very well and served as a very good way to make Argus feel like the heart of the Legion. If Krokun is Mordor, Antoran would be Mount Doom itself.

I figured that if Argus were to feel more like a mechanical nexus, it ought to have all the different functions of the Legion, not just Slave Place, Big Evil Fortress Place, and The Place That The Legion Isn't Even There. Argus isn't supposed to be like the Broken Shore—it's not an invasion point, but a true, sprawling city-planet full of incomprehensible depravity. I could definitely picture greed, lust, gluttony etc. being prominent there and being demonstrated by its inhabitants. With Suramar already laying the groundwork for a city invasion in the same expansion, I'm not sure why they didn't go all the way with it. Then, this would of course be a far more aggressive assault without any of the sneaking around and with more active military involvement.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I honestly think that the best Final Boss for Legion would've been an Avatar of Sargeras. It would be something defeatable (in the spirit of Aegwynn), but still give us a confrontation with Sargeras.

- - - Updated - - -



We're all on a lot of Hopium right now, so everyone's looking for anything to confirm their biases. Anyone who wants a certain expansion is going to be digging for anything that confirms it and ignoring everything to the contrary, and possibly making things up for their argument. Everyone has been doing such thus far.

Except there is a difference between speculating on HD models datamined in the files and currently not used in game and... this absolute nonsense brought up about changes in the old world? I mean no offence to you @delphiskye, but I'm pretty sure all the changes you have listed are not real, and you just made them up/confused yourself into thinking those were real. If I am wrong, please provide me with concrete proof and I will be happy to admit I was wrong, but I am pretty sure that aside from the D&D reference in Elwynn, nothing was changed in the old world.

I miss MoP’s feeling if that makes sense

The Dino island
The unique rep mounts
The zandalari rares
The strangely dark stories hidden among goofy jokes (jade witch and the depressed panda)
Rares being rare
Treasures with cool weapons that were boa

The awesome raids

I know exactly what you mean. MoP was awesome.

[Dracullus]

Nah, Argus fits better as endgame zone that is (almost) 100% enemy territory. With Argus expac they would have to make lot zones that just don't fit there, otherwise world would be to gloom. And their goal is completely opposite, look how every single zone is SL different, there is perfect balance between Bastion/Ardenweald/Zereth to Maldraxxus/Revendreth/Maw+Korthia.

Problem is Blizzard don't really care or had resources to put proper story in patches. Some things we just need to guess. Like: how pantheon end up or Argus? where the hell was Sargeras all the time? what he want to do with Azeroth? or how bad is situation on Azeroth during our invasion? Tomb was sealed lot of spaceships were crossing Argus portal other way.

[Chickat]

hey anyone notice the new buildings in eastern kingdoms? all emtpy of npcs but have names in files. Elwyn forest Westfall and Duskwood all have at least one

The new building models, or actual in game buildings?

[Syegfryed]

Nah, Argus fits better as endgame zone that is (almost) 100% enemy territory. With Argus expac they would have to make lot zones that just don't fit there, otherwise world would be to gloom. And their goal is completely opposite, look how every single zone is SL different, there is perfect balance between Bastion/Ardenweald/Zereth to Maldraxxus/Revendreth/Maw+Korthia.

the way argus was designed, it does not work as endgame zone, because it literally, isn't 100% enemy territory.

Having wildlife, races, and even void invasion does there make the place more of an expansion material since the planet isn't completely legion controlled.

Realistic, we could have legion invasion ->BfA(maybe another one)-> then a proper invasion of argus with sargeras showdown in another planet, so things were not rushed, so we could have know why the titans were there and other story bits

[huth]

the way argus was designed, it does not work as endgame zone, because it literally, isn't 100% enemy territory.

That's quite the non-sequitur. How many endgame zones have we had that were actually 100% enemy territory? I can't even think of one.

[Varodoc]

Why haven't people here mentioned that the Void Naaru L'ura was so terrifying and powerful that even the Legion dared not tread near the Seat of the Triumvirate? Kil'jaeden literally had it sealed out of terror for the being that is L'ura. Why aren't people here talking about the fact that a single Void Naaru was enough to terrify the Legion in their own homeworld?

Now that power has been absorbed by Alleria Windrunner of the Ren'dorei... I am scared for the Void Lords expansion, this is all I'm going to say.

[huth]

Why haven't people here mentioned that the Void Naaru L'ura was so terrifying and powerful that even the Legion dared not tread near the Seat of the Triumvirate? Kil'jaeden literally had it sealed out of terror for the being that is L'ura. Why aren't people here talking about the fact that a single Void Naaru was enough to terrify the Legion in their own homeworld?

Now that power has been absorbed by Alleria Windrunner of the Ren'dorei... I am scared for the Void Lords expansion, this is all I'm going to say.

I don't think that's super-notable. The Void was the big enemy of the Legion that Sargeras build the whole thing for in the first place.

[Edward Wu]

why haven't people here mentioned that the void naaru l'ura was so terrifying and powerful that even the legion dared not tread near the seat of the triumvirate? Kil'jaeden literally had it sealed out of terror for the being that is l'ura. Why aren't people here talking about the fact that a single void naaru was enough to terrify the legion in their own homeworld?

now that power has been absorbed by alleria windrunner of the ren'dorei... I am scared for the void lords expansion, this is all i'm going to say.

yaaaaaaassssss queeeeeeen slaaayyyy

[Raetary]

Why haven't people here mentioned that the Void Naaru L'ura was so terrifying and powerful that even the Legion dared not tread near the Seat of the Triumvirate? Kil'jaeden literally had it sealed out of terror for the being that is L'ura. Why aren't people here talking about the fact that a single Void Naaru was enough to terrify the Legion in their own homeworld?

Now that power has been absorbed by Alleria Windrunner of the Ren'dorei... I am scared for the Void Lords expansion, this is all I'm going to say.

Probably because none of that is true and you made all of it up?

The seat, and the rest of Eredath, was abandoned when the Eredar joined the legion because Kil'jaeden demeed the place a symbol of an irrelevant past.
Lu'ra became a void god only in the eons AFTER being imprisoned and the place being abandoned.