Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Super Dickmann]

Not more than Anduin, Jaina & Thrall: She'll be one of the omnipresent background characters: Always present for major wow moments from now on but never actually doing anything.

Those characters are also a narrative blight, especially Jaina, Thrall and Baine. Useless filler that sucks up oxygen and contributes nothing. Adding another extraneous appendage to them in the form of Sylvanas would only make them worse.

I mean Zovaal could've been great if he was built up over several expansions and he actually told his story or we found some form of characterization of his character. But, again we wouldn't be here where we have to deal with people stating the obvious that "we would hate Zovaal anyways" as an equalizer for why Zovaal went poorly when there's a plethora of obvious responses against it.

Not to speak of the fact he was basically just evaporated in front of our eyes without any explanation of how that occured and narratively contradicted himself with his final message showcasing that the narrative team are going to do a Zovaal type villain later on except this time he can't be characterized because all the villain will do is consume.

I've said it since the beta I'll say it again. Cut every line the Bald Man has and he leaps in quality to a disposable but basically functional villain.

[Vakir]

Sure it's not the same universe, but themes aren't limited to setting. Especially when its the same writers. Heart of the Swarm wasn't all that long ago. If they wanted to "correct" any of the ideas they could have fixed them in the third Starcraft expansion, or say, not repeat the same idea again with Illidan in Legion.

No matter how you slice it, "Illidan may have *had* to kill innocents to save the universe" and "but he has to go to prison for an extended amount of time for doing the things he needed to do to save the universe" don't make sense together. You see what I mean when I was suggesting the narrative was probably justifying Sylvanas' actions because Blizzard had a long history of murder being justified if you overturn an unjust system?

The big difference is that people were asking for Illidan to return after a five expansion absence and he was done dirty from the onset. His actions in TBC were as nonsensical and exaggerated as Sylvanas' in BFA. And when they teased the idea of him doing the very same thing as Kerrigan, they immediately course corrected when everyone shit all over it and instead spawned some prime scar memes and put him on an interdimensional bus rather than suffer us being saddled with a dead end of fanservice.

Kerrigan's entire trashfire story was also, at least, the resolution of something self contained as a single player story and not part of a long form MMO that people have a lot of personal investment in that fundamentally alters their perception of events and the overall reaction of the long term impact.

Not more than Anduin, Jaina & Thrall: She'll be one of the omnipresent background characters: Always present for major wow moments from now on but never actually doing anything.

Is it not enough to ask for them to leave, too? Is this what we've become? Assuming this Bland-vengers shit must persist no matter what and not asking for a better story?

I see Sylvanas as a shoe-in for being a big, cosmic level figure to bring in for cosmic-level fanservice threats. The Death to Illidan's Disorder or Turalyon's Light or Alleria's Void. They are tired and inconvenient when they dick about.

[Ersula]

Kerrigan's entire trashfire story was also, at least, the resolution of something self contained as a single player story and not part of a long form MMO that people have a lot of personal investment in that fundamentally alters their perception of events and the overall reaction of the long term impact.

You keep saying there was & is still this negative reaction to Illidan & Kerrigan's storyline. But I don't remember the fandom reacting that way at all. I just see that idea now from Sylvanas haters because they realize her treatment is hypocritical, thematically speaking.

When I say removed I mean before we got to see it.
The cinematic for the Anduin fight was already made, same with the Sylvanas model, but because of the backlash from the Sylvanas cinematic released before the PTR they decided to preemptively replace them with something else to prevent further outrage.

So this is purely speculative, yeah? You say they intended the players to be present for that cinematic, even though its implemented in game the same way the Anduin-attacks-Archon cinematic was, a cinematic the players were not present for, also released publicly before that PTR build.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I've said it since the beta I'll say it again. Cut every line the Bald Man has and he leaps in quality to a disposable but basically functional villain.

I am personally of the opinion that the fact that the Narrative Team believes it themselves is a problem. I still don't think the whole Devourer arc is going to be fun or engaging for the audiences beyond it being a simple big bad that eats the Pattern which I mean cool but again it is not very engaging and again I just think it will be silly as hell once we're actually in the middle of it.

(I still stand by that Galactus is not interesting and seeing him in Warcraft is not going to be a fun experience for anyone. Unless they make it a monstrous being akin to what they've teased with the white snake and amp up the cosmic horror aspect to 1000%. Otherwise, I can't imagine another humanoid creature that consumes being characterized in any way shape or form that is interesting.)

The Curse of Flesh is the only reason our characters have free will.

Also, theres the whole r*pe of Helya thing...... that the writers really don't know how to portray well.

As it currently stands CoF is only applicable to
Alliance: Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Worgen, Mechagnomes, Kul'tiran, Dark Iron Dwarves.
Horde: Undead, Goblins (Pygmy connection if uncertain about status it would be tied to Life though unlikely).

Void interference that lead to Free Will (Y'shaarj removal from Planet):
Alliance: Night Elves, Void Elves.
Horde: Trolls, Blood Elves, Zandalari Trolls.

Life/Primal Life:
Neutral: Pandaren. (Life)
Horde: Orcs (Primal Life), Mag'har Orcs (Primal Life), Tauren (Life), Vulpera (Life), Highmountain Tauren (Life)

Unknown:
Alliance: Draenei, Lightforged Draenei (Ata'mai Crystals = Civilization booster from the Light)

But yeah, you're not wrong from the perspective of free will on Azeroth mostly being tied to the Void. It is very curious how Life/Primal Life and Void is so far what we've noticed to be the only ones actively giving sentience to species (In this case Playable Races). Obviously there's some kinks in this armor too but yeah.

Obviously once you go down the rabbit hole of Free Will being granted by the Void to Azerothian denizens. It becomes questionable as to how the whole "Prophecy" thing makes sense as the Void would have to have known The First Ones entire plan of us being sent to kill Zovaal being a part of the "design".

N'zoth played us, basically but also again it creates this weird question of how we actually do not have "Free Will" even if we do have "Free Will". Again, this whole storyline was scrapped in Shadowlands and it basically might only become relevant again in the Epilogue or in the Sylvanas book. But we'll see. Obviously I think this stuff is overheating the noggin' so yeah.

[Sondrelk]

You keep saying there was & is still this negative reaction to Illidan & Kerrigan's storyline. But I don't remember the fandom reacting that way at all. I just see that idea now from Sylvanas haters because they realize her treatment is hypocritical, thematically speaking.
So this is purely speculative, yeah? You say they intended the players to be present for that cinematic, even though its implemented in game the same way the Anduin-attacks-Archon cinematic was, a cinematic the players were not present for, also released publicly before that PTR build.

You have two cinematics. The one released before the PTR, and the one that shows after you defeat Anduin.
First one is shown, gets a terrible reaction. But since the second cinematic is already made Blizzard has to keep her in the raid if they want to keep the cinematic.
What they don't need however is a hypothetical Sylvanas questline that follows Uther's talk about learning to trust Sylvanas.

If you think back to the questline you might realize it hardly matters in the grand scheme. The questline is literally about fixing the teleporter to the raid instead of the more logical Sylvanas centric questline that Uther seems to allude to.

So the theory is that Blizzard had a questline for Sylvanas planned for the second week of 9.2. But they scrapped it after the backlash to the Uther and Sylvanas cinematic, only leaving Sylvanas in the actual raid because the Anduin cinematic would be nonsensical without her.

[The Stormbringer]

Sylvanas wasn't unredeemable, Alex Afrasiaby just shit on her story and the current team had to fix that crap. Which they did. I'm glad the "Sylvanas is suddenly a villain" storyline is done and over.

Sylvanas has been a villain since Warcraft 3 when she decided to murder Garithos and his men. Yes, he was a racist asshole, but she made an accord with him and then promptly broke it. Rather than seeking what might've been a difficult alternative, she chose the easy method of murder and betrayal. She then continued this villainous arc by getting the Forsaken to develop the new Plague, and all the horrible, awful things they did there. Oh, and let's not forget about all the shit she did in Gilneas and Silverpine.

Face it, Sylvanas has been villainous for a long, long time. The only difference is she was a good villain before, and BfA and Shadowlands turned her into a stupid joke of a villain.

[Vakir]

You keep saying there was & is still this negative reaction to Illidan & Kerrigan's storyline. But I don't remember the fandom reacting that way at all. I just see that idea now from Sylvanas haters because they realize her treatment is hypocritical.

Then you were living in a bubble. People cried foul the moment Jim walked away with a nude Sarah at the end of Wings of Liberty.

Unpopular opinion, but I liked her in Heart of the Swarm minus her Jim overdependence, since she felt like she still had a bit of a dark edge and still had her connection with the Zerg as the primary focus - albeit the Primal Zerg was itself a retread of the Orcs with her playing Thrall, which sucked. But flaming angel goddess was a bridge too far. Go check the Amon death cutscenes for dislike bombs for at least some metric.

Illidan was said to be done dirty back in TBC almost unilaterally and was a casualty of the then-Blizzard fallback of "insanity." I was there.

If you mean his bit in Legion, Xe'ra was generally characterized as pretentious and condescending to the player to criticize us to kill a despot that communicated fucking nothing. Nobody wanted a Chosen One narrative so it was quite literally laser beamed into debris. Illidan remains a fucking douchebag as he should be and was lambasted by characters we're meant to agree with (even though really fuck Tyrande and Malf) but he's our extremist anti-heroic douchebag you can bring out in VERY specific circumstances.

We can't miss someone if they don't go away and also if the writers fail on every conceivable level to understand what made those characters work. Sylvanas is presently the victim of both.

[Ersula]

So the theory is that Blizzard had a questline for Sylvanas planned for the second week of 9.2. But they scrapped it after the backlash to the Uther and Sylvanas cinematic, only leaving Sylvanas in the actual raid because the Anduin cinematic would be nonsensical without her.

I guess that's possible but I wouldn't assume that because WoW has a long history of underdramaticizing everything. They didn't re-record Jaina or Tyrande's lines in that short amount of time, so I don't think...

Jaina: I don't trust Sylvanas
Uther: I trust Sylvanas
Jaina: Than I also trust Sylvanas

...is a rewrite. That's just on par with their typical quality of dialog.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I am also firmly in the camp that believes they do not pre-plan or do anything of the sorts anymore. There's just no way beyond completely incomprehensible disagreements with the Development Team and the Narrative Team that it just does not make sense.

Yeah, I think they look at fan reaction and adjust accordingly and I think that's a really bad thing for the story. Obviously sometimes it works out, but as we've seen recently it doesn't work out at all and I'd rather they focus on preparing accordingly for an expansion with an actual game plan and executing on it. But, alas we're kind of stuck with the whole 2 Year Cycle rushjobs that don't really let us have that narrative breathing room where things can change for the better.

I guess that's possible but I wouldn't assume that because WoW has a long history of underdramaticizing everything. They didn't re-record Jaina or Tyrande's lines in that short amount of time, so I don't think...

Jaina: I don't trust Sylvanas
Uther: I trust Sylvanas
Jaina: Than I also trust Sylvanas

...is a rewrite. That's just on par with their typical quality of dialog.

WoW's dialogue issues weren't really becoming an issue until this expansion. The dialogue in WoW has always been extremely painful and lacking compared to how big and expensive the franchise is. But given the whole 8 month waiting periods and the campaign system showcasing how it is currently failing completely at satisfying either party (Lore fans and Gameplay First fans).

It is disappointing that the story isn't being given the attention it deserves and has to appeal to the common denominator which is truly a shame because we got a new system with Renown that could cut the story out of the main progression for those who don't care.

But yeah, this only started becoming highlighted because things were already bad enough that the issues of the writing actually could get a spotlight shone on it.

Obviously, I think things could get better in this department by a mile.

[Ersula]

Sylvanas has been a villain since Warcraft 3 when she decided to murder Garithos and his men. Yes, he was a racist asshole, but she made an accord with him and then promptly broke it. Rather than seeking what might've been a difficult alternative, she chose the easy method of murder and betrayal. She then continued this villainous arc by getting the Forsaken to develop the new Plague, and all the horrible, awful things they did there. Oh, and let's not forget about all the shit she did in Gilneas and Silverpine.

Yes, lets defend the guy who wanted to use High elves as human shields.

They used the New Blight to fight the Scourge. Even after Wrathgate.

If Sylvanas was pure evil, she could have just used the original Blight: It only kills the living & the forsaken are immune to it, making it the perfect weapon for an undead megalomaniac.

Anytime I engage with Arthas stans it feels like explaining the basic events of the game to a child.

[Sondrelk]

I guess that's possible but I wouldn't assume that because WoW has a long history of underdramaticizing everything. They didn't re-record Jaina or Tyrande's lines in that short amount of time, so I don't think...

Jaina: I don't trust Sylvanas
Uther: I trust Sylvanas
Jaina: Than I also trust Sylvanas

...is a rewrite. That's just on par with their typical quality of dialog.

I am talking more specifically about how Bolvar talks about not trusting Sylvanas, Uther then states that he stakes his honour on Sylvanas cooperation, then we go and do a questline for someone completely different with no relation to Bolvar, Uther, or more importantly Sylvanas. At least until the very end when Sylvanas is suddenly standing next to the teleporter with everyone else.

It absolutely could be a coincidence, but given how lore dense the weekly questlines are it seems weird that we spent one of those with a random broker who isn't important again.

[Ersula]

I am talking more specifically about how Bolvar talks about not trusting Sylvanas, Uther then states that he stakes his honour on Sylvanas cooperation, then we go and do a questline for someone completely different with no relation to Bolvar, Uther, or more importantly Sylvanas. At least until the very end when Sylvanas is suddenly standing next to the teleporter with everyone else.

WoW's dialogue issues weren't really becoming an issue until this expansion.

Thrall speaks about 3 lines to his parents in WoD. Same goes for Taelia. Same goes for Darion. The epitome of under-dramatization. This is par for the course. None of this feel like a rewrite.

[Vakir]

WoW's dialogue issues weren't really becoming an issue until this expansion. The dialogue in WoW has always been extremely painful and lacking compared to how big and expensive the franchise is. But given the whole 8 month waiting periods and the campaign system showcasing how it is currently failing completely at satisfying either party (Lore fans and Gameplay First fans).

What really throws me is how consistently so little is said despite there being the opening for expanding their concepts and characters with the same time.

Everything has these heavy ellipses at every point like it's an 11 year old that just learned the concept of suspense or anticipation, but just as quickly it's rushed into a 1-2.5 minute time frame and nothing of value is said. It's bizarrely "hurry up and wait" or "wait and hurry up." The polar opposite of 14 making me legitimately, powerfully emotional but needing a god damn editor at times.

[The Stormbringer]

Yes, lets defend the guy who wanted to use High elves as human shields.

They used the New Blight to fight the Scourge. Even after Wrathgate.

If Sylvanas was pure evil, she could have just used the original Blight: It only kills the living & the forsaken are immune to it, making it the perfect weapon for an undead megalomaniac.

Anytime I engage with Arthas stans it feels like explaining the basic events of the game to a child.

I'm not defending Garithos, I'm defending the idea of making an agreement and keeping it, something she broke. Also, you know, killing Garithos' men who may or may not have been as bad as him.

They used the New Blight to fight MULTIPLE enemies, including living humans, Vrykul, Gilneas, and so on.

Also, who the hell mentioned Arthas? I never said a damn thing about Arthas.

EDIT: And I never said she was "pure evil", I said she was a villain. You do understand that there are various shades of good and bad, right?

[Vakir]

Also, who the hell mentioned Arthas? I never said a damn thing about Arthas.

Yep, and I had never said anything about killing Sylvanas.

Us vs. Them derangement is a thing. :/

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I'm 100% of the opinion Murozond has enough personality to carry an expansion, and may give us something of a break from the sequence of increasingly-deep voiced hulking douchebags reading off of "baby's first villain script" and following a motivation that changes at a moment's notice.

- - - Updated - - -

Odyn is the one who really had it all figured out. He knew that empowering the Dragons would completely fuck up because they're untrustworthy and that people were unreliable morons who'd doom the universe, which is why he cut the Curse of Flesh out of the equation by making everyone a golden robot bodybuilder. Being constantly proven right over the millennia must weigh on him.

Chad Odyn Chad Odyn

Maybe he'll get an opportunity to show up later and rub it in all our faces.

[Super Dickmann]

I am personally of the opinion that the fact that the Narrative Team believes it themselves is a problem. I still don't think the whole Devourer arc is going to be fun or engaging for the audiences beyond it being a simple big bad that eats the Pattern which I mean cool but again it is not very engaging and again I just think it will be silly as hell once we're actually in the middle of it.

(I still stand by that Galactus is not interesting and seeing him in Warcraft is not going to be a fun experience for anyone. Unless they make it a monstrous being akin to what they've teased with the white snake and amp up the cosmic horror aspect to 1000%. Otherwise, I can't imagine another humanoid creature that consumes being characterized in any way shape or form that is interesting.)

I don't mean ditching what passes for the Bald Man's characterization, I mean quite literally making him mute. Have his tongue ripped out or whatever, keep everything around him as is, with things like Firim's journal and the others explaining his motive and his goons as collective Mouths of Sauron communicating his intent, but don't have him speak a single line of dialogue. The Bald Man has 0 memorable lines. His script consists entirely of rote threats that could be swapped out with any 5-man boss without anyone being the wiser or narrating the activity he's in the process of doing at this moment like he has Alzheimer's.

"The Sepulcher's secrets will be mine." The Jailer intones, as we watch him teleport to the Sepulcher.
"Mawsworn, come." He tells his army of torture robots as they follow him.
"At last, the final key." He informs us as we see him shove that key into his chest.

Even his raid fight consists of him saying shit like "Break!" "Die!" "Cease to be!" "Expire!" as he hits with you his flail thing with the intent to kill. His dialogue is perfunctory dross. It's useless in providing any insight to the character and in fact actively diminishes him by making him into some boring asshole instead of the Godhead to whom everyone he interacts with is either a slave or will vanish when he resets the universe anyway. He has nothing to say and no reason to say it in the first place.

[Ersula]

They used the New Blight to fight MULTIPLE enemies, including living humans, Vrykul, Gilneas, and so on.

The "They" I was referring to was the Alliance & Horde, during wotlk. Despite a dreadlord's attempted coup, the New Blight was a force of good at that time. Saying that's indicative of Sylvanas being intended to be a villain before Teldrassil is revisionism.

[Vakir]

I'm 100% of the opinion Murozond has enough personality to carry an expansion, and may give us something of a break from the sequence of increasingly-deep voiced hulking douchebags reading off of "baby's first villain script" and following a motivation that changes at a moment's notice.

Also he's Martin Sheen. Ride that Illusive Man iconicness baby.

[Raetary]

N'zoths charisma was sucked out of him the moment he stopped being a fish in the Azshara Warbringer.
When he revealed himself to Azshara, they turned him immediately into a shitty 1D villain with a *deep imposing voice* and who's entire personality revolves around yelling how great he is.

Which is such a damn shame, because fish N'zoth was absolutely the best portrayal of an Old God to date imo.


Bring back the Fish!