Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Vakir]

I bet that fucker had this "epic tearjerker" scene planned where she has this "glorious" speech about the renewal of her heroism and from rags dons the old Ranger General armor to the delight of like, 3 people.

I've rarely been happy when art falls victim to deadlines and pipelines, but...

[Futhark]

At this point, it would be really interesting if the Aspects have reflected on the Age of Mortals and realized it was a huge mistake. Deathwing might have been an oopsie, but other than that, they held things together for Azeroth for thousands of years. Since they gave up their powers, we've resurrected two Old Golds, merged with an alternate timeline, brought another Legion invasion and almost got reality destroyed by the realm of Death. In, like, a 10 year timespan!

Maybe they have had enough. Why wouldn't they view us Mortals(death elementals, really) as the bad guys and try to stop us? How neat would an expansion be where we are viewed as the antagonists, maybe not just of the Aspects, but Azeroth herself?

[Super Dickmann]

I bet that fucker had this "epic tearjerker" scene planned where she has this "glorious" speech about the renewal of her heroism and from rags dons the old Ranger General armor to the delight of like, 3 people.

I've rarely been happy when art falls victim to deadlines and pipelines, but...

One extreme benefit of SL getting cut short is that we didn't get a full high definition multimillion dollar Sylvanas cinematic series like BFA's Sadfang Chronicles.

[Vakir]

@Futhark

Perhaps from that they shall seek to form an...Empire?

Oh, right. >_>

I mean, it makes sense. I wouldn't trust us with the keys at this point. BFA confirmed that both world superpowers are immensely stupid and fickle, and then SL proceeded to confirm we are too with bringing the last Sigil to the Jailer's mancave.

One extreme benefit of SL getting cut short is that we didn't get a full high definition multimillion dollar Sylvanas cinematic series like BFA's Sadfang Chronicles.

What is this emotion I'm feeling? I almost want to see it. Just to see if someone can topple Neil Breen, satirical or not.

[Sondrelk]

There were strings with "Sylvanas Orgrimmar" in the PTR and she has that prisoner model. Danuser also said we'd 'explore' how she got to that point. But it looks like all of this got cut since she only ever uses her ranger outfit in the game, which convinces me that we're doing a speedrun of this arc so we can be done with it. Now don't interrupt me, I need another barrel of copium, my supplies are running dangerously low.

Don't forget how we are not actually given any explanation for why Sylvanas is in the raid, or what she expects to be avle to do. Bolvar talks big about how "it's a bad idea to trust her", and Uther replies that he stakes his honour on it working, and then nothing really happens.
Seems to me like this was originally intended to be the beginning to a more Bluevanas-centric plotline where we maybe do some quests with her, but nothing, the quest just does something else and suddenly Bluevanas is in the raid.

If I were to guess I would say that Blizzard had started making the Anduin cinematic, and couldn't really excise Bluevanas from the raid without creating plotholes, so they just had to cram her in despite it not really being set up at all.



Or maybe it will be a part of a later questline. The whole epilogue questline wasn't shown on the PTR, and while I have been burned on this before with the Sanctum epilogue, I could see the quest being a bit more elaborate.

[Super Dickmann]

At this point, it would be really interesting if the Aspects have reflected on the Age of Mortals and realized it was a huge mistake. Deathwing might have been an oopsie, but other than that, they held things together for Azeroth for thousands of years. Since they gave up their powers, we've resurrected two Old Golds, merged with an alternate timeline, brought another Legion invasion and almost got reality destroyed by the realm of Death. In, like, a 10 year timespan!

Maybe they have had enough. Why wouldn't they view us Mortals(death elementals, really) as the bad guys and try to stop us? How neat would an expansion be where we are viewed as the antagonists, maybe not just of the Aspects, but Azeroth herself?

Odyn is the one who really had it all figured out. He knew that empowering the Dragons would completely fuck up because they're untrustworthy and that people were unreliable morons who'd doom the universe, which is why he cut the Curse of Flesh out of the equation by making everyone a golden robot bodybuilder. Being constantly proven right over the millennia must weigh on him.

@Sondrelk

I remain 100% convinced there was an extra patch and that the gap after Anduin is an extremely cut down version of whatever would have happened over that patch's storyline character-wise. The entire bit with Sylvanas being there to 'activate' Anduin and help him break free and Anduin knowing how to counteract domination magic except not really are the results of the writers hastily stitching it back together enough for it to ship. It's why such a big deal is made out of how we must save Anduin so he can help us figure out the rest, only for Anduin to quite reasonably know absolutely fuck all and us asking the Primus instead.

I suspect there'll be a short questline before Tyrande punts Sylvanas into the Maw, but at best as many quests as a standard questline. It could also just be the intro and then hell.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

The only glue holding the remains of this dumb storyline together is finality. Once it's done, it's done and we don't have to bother with this bullshit again. Wrapping up this character arc and shelving the character in something that's basically indefinite prison until she cools off and can be used again. To build up towards this, go through with it and then backtrack five minutes later wouldn't be surprising for Blizzard but I can't think of timing that would be worse for them. The Bald Man storytelling screams trying to wrap this crap up as soon as possible, as is cutting the datamined bits about Orgrimmar and even any use of Sylvanas's prisoner model.

Of course, ideally you never would have come to this position and you'd first not have written Sylvanas as a prop for all of BFA and then not have based her entire war crime of a character arc on the basis of the blandest villain imaginable and on her characterization from ten lines in three missions of Warcraft III. The absolute best route going off of BFA would be to make her the only villain or be using the Bald Man, have her be genuine and plausible in achieving her aim, which would be based on the Edge of Night status quo of herself and the undead being damned by default and then have her be the end boss because whatever means she uses to solve this problem aren't worth the cost.

I mean it still contradicts the whole "GALACTUS IS COMING BTW" hint hint nudge nudge that the Narrative Team has been playing up. Obviously, I was expecting Bald Man to actually do something and or at least showcase the damage that Bald Man did aka showcasing the "Fracture" in the Pattern. But, none of it happened beyond a really confusing scene where Bald Man evaporates before our eyes without any context as to why he does beyond beaten by some adventurers from Azeroth redoing the whole shtick about us always winning.

It just seems like they realized they could have some room to play with the Sylvanas storyline due to everyone telling them to do a epilogue chapter and now they seem to've established that there are going to be epilogue chapters in the final patch of the expansion moving forward. As always, I think the whole situation is goofy but I think the Narrative Team really wants to make sure she's safe and sound no matter what as it currently stands.

Don't forget how we are not actually given any explanation for why Sylvanas is in the raid, or what she expects to be avle to do. Bolvar talks big about how "it's a bad idea to trust her", and Uther replies that he stakes his honour on it working, and then nothing really happens.
Seems to me like this was originally intended to be the beginning to a more Bluevanas-centric plotline where we maybe do some quests with her, but nothing, the quest just does something else and suddenly Bluevanas is in the raid.

If I were to guess I would say that Blizzard had started making the Anduin cinematic, and couldn't really excise Bluevanas from the raid without creating plotholes, so they just had to cram her in despite it not really being set up at all.



Or maybe it will be a part of a later questline. The whole epilogue questline wasn't shown on the PTR, and while I have been burned on this before with the Sanctum epilogue, I could see the quest being a bit more elaborate.

I feel like things got out of hand internally around the time this would've been in production. Also again, it is pretty obvious that the Zovaal Cinematic being shorter than N'zoth cinematic by 13 seconds that something was amiss with the entire raid.

Obviously, they've never been good at adding lore characters to the mix of dungeons and raids and especially once they've started using them in cinematics for the raid as they always seem comedically like puppets for the maestro to play rather than actual characters.

It could be that they intended for her to sacrifice herself but realized that would be a bad idea. But, at the same time I don't really believe in that theory at all. Considering they always planned for her to be spared by Tyrande Whisperwind and nothing on the PTR seemed to indicate she wouldn't survive the raid.

[Sondrelk]

I bet that fucker had this "epic tearjerker" scene planned where she has this "glorious" speech about the renewal of her heroism and from rags dons the old Ranger General armor to the delight of like, 3 people.

I've rarely been happy when art falls victim to deadlines and pipelines, but...

Or maybe they realized they were about to crash horribly and decided to course correct to the best of their abilities by removing all Sylvanas stuff that wasn't strictly necessary to the assets already made.

Imagine for instance they saw the absolutely horrendous backlash to the whole Bluevanas cinematic, realized a redemption arc would just make things worse, but couldn't completely remove her as that would just leave massive gals in the story, not to mention they wouldn't have had anything to replace it with. So as a compromise solution they just removed all quests with her in it.

[ercarp]

Here's a fun recompilation of therewillbedragons's 'leaks'. I do find these ones kind of interesting, they're keeping up their claim lol

The continent/landmass/islands seems fun!

Thanks for compiling them.

Even if this is fake, which it probably is, it's kind of funny (or sad, depending on your perspective) that the fans always seem to put way more thought and creativity into making these leaks than Blizzard puts into the actual story. I've seen so many good leaks over the years that make sense, and then when the actual expansion comes out, it's just filled with retcons, plot holes, wasted potential, and a story written by a 6-year-old.

So if one wanted to make a BELIEVABLE leak, they would have to channel the inner stupidity of Danuser's writing and Hazzikostas's anti-fun game design philosophy to come up with something mediocre.

[Shadochi]

At this point, it would be really interesting if the Aspects have reflected on the Age of Mortals and realized it was a huge mistake. Deathwing might have been an oopsie, but other than that, they held things together for Azeroth for thousands of years. Since they gave up their powers, we've resurrected two Old Golds, merged with an alternate timeline, brought another Legion invasion and almost got reality destroyed by the realm of Death. In, like, a 10 year timespan!

Maybe they have had enough. Why wouldn't they view us Mortals(death elementals, really) as the bad guys and try to stop us? How neat would an expansion be where we are viewed as the antagonists, maybe not just of the Aspects, but Azeroth herself?

And to be honest since then mortals caused to death of one of the former Aspects (Ysera).
But I was also thinking this morning that an expansion where we are viewed as antagonists would be interesting. But this feels more like something for a Singleplayer game story than for an MMO since im not sure how that would work for launch and 2-3 patches besides us or the getting cleansed from whatever mystery corruption in .1 or .2

[Sondrelk]

One extreme benefit of SL getting cut short is that we didn't get a full high definition multimillion dollar Sylvanas cinematic series like BFA's Sadfang Chronicles.

I already feel bad for the cinematic team having to create the Sadfang stuff just to prop up such a doomed project. Demanding they try to redeem someone as unredeemable as Sylvanas would just be sad.

[Vakir]

Or maybe they realized they were about to crash horribly and decided to course correct to the best of their abilities by removing all Sylvanas stuff that wasn't strictly necessary to the assets already made.

If they have even passing awareness of fandom and more importantly the self, maybe there's a hope for 10.0 from a story POV.

I still want a lore reboot at some point though.

[Shadochi]

Thanks for compiling them.

Even if this is fake, which it probably is, it's kind of funny (or sad, depending on your perspective) that the fans always seem to put way more thought and creativity into making these leaks than Blizzard puts into the actual story. I've seen so many good leaks over the years that make sense, and then when the actual expansion comes out, it's just filled with retcons, plot holes, wasted potential, and a story written by a 6-year-old.

I don't think that is necessarily true.
What we see here on forums from people is mostly just a couple paragraphs of the main plot of the launch of the expansion. We mostly don't get the story of why we are going to this land, what are the individual story stories, overarching stories, in detail character stories. We mostly just get broad plot points. And this is way easier to keep without plot holes than an in detailed playable story. Also the fact that here there is a fairly smaller number people analyzing and exploring the fanmade lore (and put less effort) than there are people that analyze the actual current story.
Also creating new various races for the new zones if needed (not just humanoid). And a bunch of other stuff that goes into worldbuilding besides just the main plot.

There is definitely some people that put way more work into their ideas, but these are generally known as fan expansion ideas (Twofold light if that is the name) and not "leaks".

[Super Dickmann]

I mean it still contradicts the whole "GALACTUS IS COMING BTW" hint hint nudge nudge that the Narrative Team has been playing up. Obviously, I was expecting Bald Man to actually do something and or at least showcase the damage that Bald Man did aka showcasing the "Fracture" in the Pattern. But, none of it happened beyond a really confusing scene where Bald Man evaporates before our eyes without any context as to why he does beyond beaten by some adventurers from Azeroth redoing the whole shtick about us always winning.

It just seems like they realized they could have some room to play with the Sylvanas storyline due to everyone telling them to do a epilogue chapter and now they seem to've established that there are going to be epilogue chapters in the final patch of the expansion moving forward. As always, I think the whole situation is goofy but I think the Narrative Team really wants to make sure she's safe and sound no matter what as it currently stands.

As soon as Sylvanas went from her cartoonish BFA version who was destined to be Gul'dan 2.0 to first making sad eyes at Anduin the chances of her dying sank rapidly to 0. The ending of her being thrown into the Maw to save souls seems like something that was decided very early into SL and fits in well with the Edge of Night. All the connective tissue though is put together with string and the seams show foremost in 9.2 proper. She'll definitely be used later but I doubt they're rushing through her story as hard as they are because they intend to use her in the next expansion.

As regards the Bald Man I'm inclined to believe in @Jokubas 'version that he was intended to be the culmination of a bunch of foreshadowing and that his death state is them hastily ditching that to offload it to someone else. It has no massive bearing on the cosmic stuff because that part of 9.2 is actually the best put together in terms of internal logic and follows through from what we've seen of it in 9.0 and 9.1.

[Ersula]

I already feel bad for the cinematic team having to create the Sadfang stuff just to prop up such a doomed project. Demanding they try to redeem someone as unredeemable as Sylvanas would just be sad.

Who feels more punked in this situation? Blizzard or the cinematic director who made Arcane in the time between making the Shadowlands & whatever we see on April 19th? Cause its the same guy.

[Sondrelk]

If they have even passing awareness of fandom and more importantly the self, maybe there's a hope for 10.0.

I still want a reboot at some point though.

I don't think their problem is a disconnect from the fandom, but as I said, being unable to correct course because of deadlines.

By the time we start raiding Sanctum the ending is already set in stone. The cinematic team has either already started work on a Sylvanas redemption cinematic and story, or starts in response to the backlash. The cinematic does not get the intended response, but work has already begun on 9.2 and it's accompanying cinematics so they can't really do anything, especially seeing as they have already more or less promised Sylvanas will be in it.

I wouldn't be shocked if the reason the epilogue is no longer available on the PTR, and in this case seemingly not even on live, is that Blizzard wants as much time as possible to make a somewhat palatable ending to what they have made, rather than crashing at the finish line because of deadlines.

Players often forget that WoW is not a book, and worse than that is a live service with many moving parts. Story has to be dictated not just by what is best, but what can work and by what is already being worked on.
They likely can't scrap the Anduin cinematic without simultaneously scrapping having a cinematic at all, and it's probably impossible to cut just Sylvanas from it without it looking butchered, so the writers just have to make do with what they got and hope they can eventually just out it behind them.

[Raetary]

In, like, a 10 year timespan!

Actually, with the exception of cataclysm each expansion takes place roughly in a period of 1 year.
So, unless Blizzard means to change their timeline its only been a short 5 years since the cataclysm.

[Celement]

I legit thought until this week reading the subtitles the jailers last words were " who is to'kall " finding out it was " what is to come" isn't any better tbh.

[Pheraz]

...Players often forget that WoW is not a book, and worse than that is a live service with many moving parts. Story has to be dictated not just by what is best, but what can work and by what is already being worked on.
They likely can't scrap the Anduin cinematic without simultaneously scrapping having a cinematic at all, and it's probably impossible to cut just Sylvanas from it without it looking butchered, so the writers just have to make do with what they got and hope they can eventually just out it behind them.

As much as I hate public shaming of people like this waifu talk about danuser, the problem (for me) with the story arc are not necessarily the details (like sylvanas being IN the cinematic), but the general direction and the permanent omni presence of sylvanas (like half of the cinematic is about sylvanas). They or he? are/is literally rubbing the Sylvanas story in our faces and I really don't understand why, apart from what the consensus of all the hate-trains on twitter are, that danuser has some kind of addiction for this character (fictional character, by the way). I find it frustrating that this world is so awesome with so many awesome characters and it looks (to me) like one person is able to dictate this storyline no matter how negative the response is. I mean, being the leader of the team is one thing, but the team not being able to somehow have their leader think about feedback is the other thing.

[Ersula]

There were strings with "Sylvanas Orgrimmar" in the PTR and she has that prisoner model. Danuser also said we'd 'explore' how she got to that point. But it looks like all of this got cut since she only ever uses her ranger outfit in the game, which convinces me that we're doing a speedrun of this arc so we can be done with it. Now don't interrupt me, I need another barrel of copium, my supplies are running dangerously low.

She was using the Prisoner Model in the Zerem Mortis preview, now replaced with her new new armor model. Probably because it felt a little weird to insist she help fight the Jailer but not allow her to have any armor. The Prisoner Model was explicitly (and apparently, only) used for the magical realism cinematic where she's in a coma & Uther is watching over her. I believe the "Sylvanas Orgrimmar" model is her Warchief model, which appears again as a hologram in the reforging the helm campagin quest. (Although canonically it should be the model before that because it was the pre-wow version of sylvanas)

If that's the case, which it won't be, doesn't that imply it's not a significant enough penance?

Why give a karmic consequence in the first place if it turns out to be the most lukewarm shit?

The idea is that she's also going to become a force for good from now on. Redeption is a road, not a destination.

You can just as easily argue that death is too easy for Sylvanas.