Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

I guess that's possible but I wouldn't assume that because WoW has a long history of underdramaticizing everything. They didn't re-record Jaina or Tyrande's lines in that short amount of time, so I don't think...

Jaina: I don't trust Sylvanas
Uther: I trust Sylvanas
Jaina: Than I also trust Sylvanas

...is a rewrite. That's just on par with their typical quality of dialog.

I am talking more specifically about how Bolvar talks about not trusting Sylvanas, Uther then states that he stakes his honour on Sylvanas cooperation, then we go and do a questline for someone completely different with no relation to Bolvar, Uther, or more importantly Sylvanas. At least until the very end when Sylvanas is suddenly standing next to the teleporter with everyone else.

It absolutely could be a coincidence, but given how lore dense the weekly questlines are it seems weird that we spent one of those with a random broker who isn't important again.

[Ersula]

I am talking more specifically about how Bolvar talks about not trusting Sylvanas, Uther then states that he stakes his honour on Sylvanas cooperation, then we go and do a questline for someone completely different with no relation to Bolvar, Uther, or more importantly Sylvanas. At least until the very end when Sylvanas is suddenly standing next to the teleporter with everyone else.

WoW's dialogue issues weren't really becoming an issue until this expansion.

Thrall speaks about 3 lines to his parents in WoD. Same goes for Taelia. Same goes for Darion. The epitome of under-dramatization. This is par for the course. None of this feel like a rewrite.

[Vakir]

WoW's dialogue issues weren't really becoming an issue until this expansion. The dialogue in WoW has always been extremely painful and lacking compared to how big and expensive the franchise is. But given the whole 8 month waiting periods and the campaign system showcasing how it is currently failing completely at satisfying either party (Lore fans and Gameplay First fans).

What really throws me is how consistently so little is said despite there being the opening for expanding their concepts and characters with the same time.

Everything has these heavy ellipses at every point like it's an 11 year old that just learned the concept of suspense or anticipation, but just as quickly it's rushed into a 1-2.5 minute time frame and nothing of value is said. It's bizarrely "hurry up and wait" or "wait and hurry up." The polar opposite of 14 making me legitimately, powerfully emotional but needing a god damn editor at times.

[The Stormbringer]

Yes, lets defend the guy who wanted to use High elves as human shields.

They used the New Blight to fight the Scourge. Even after Wrathgate.

If Sylvanas was pure evil, she could have just used the original Blight: It only kills the living & the forsaken are immune to it, making it the perfect weapon for an undead megalomaniac.

Anytime I engage with Arthas stans it feels like explaining the basic events of the game to a child.

I'm not defending Garithos, I'm defending the idea of making an agreement and keeping it, something she broke. Also, you know, killing Garithos' men who may or may not have been as bad as him.

They used the New Blight to fight MULTIPLE enemies, including living humans, Vrykul, Gilneas, and so on.

Also, who the hell mentioned Arthas? I never said a damn thing about Arthas.

EDIT: And I never said she was "pure evil", I said she was a villain. You do understand that there are various shades of good and bad, right?

[Vakir]

Also, who the hell mentioned Arthas? I never said a damn thing about Arthas.

Yep, and I had never said anything about killing Sylvanas.

Us vs. Them derangement is a thing. :/

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I'm 100% of the opinion Murozond has enough personality to carry an expansion, and may give us something of a break from the sequence of increasingly-deep voiced hulking douchebags reading off of "baby's first villain script" and following a motivation that changes at a moment's notice.

- - - Updated - - -

Odyn is the one who really had it all figured out. He knew that empowering the Dragons would completely fuck up because they're untrustworthy and that people were unreliable morons who'd doom the universe, which is why he cut the Curse of Flesh out of the equation by making everyone a golden robot bodybuilder. Being constantly proven right over the millennia must weigh on him.

Chad Odyn Chad Odyn

Maybe he'll get an opportunity to show up later and rub it in all our faces.

[Super Dickmann]

I am personally of the opinion that the fact that the Narrative Team believes it themselves is a problem. I still don't think the whole Devourer arc is going to be fun or engaging for the audiences beyond it being a simple big bad that eats the Pattern which I mean cool but again it is not very engaging and again I just think it will be silly as hell once we're actually in the middle of it.

(I still stand by that Galactus is not interesting and seeing him in Warcraft is not going to be a fun experience for anyone. Unless they make it a monstrous being akin to what they've teased with the white snake and amp up the cosmic horror aspect to 1000%. Otherwise, I can't imagine another humanoid creature that consumes being characterized in any way shape or form that is interesting.)

I don't mean ditching what passes for the Bald Man's characterization, I mean quite literally making him mute. Have his tongue ripped out or whatever, keep everything around him as is, with things like Firim's journal and the others explaining his motive and his goons as collective Mouths of Sauron communicating his intent, but don't have him speak a single line of dialogue. The Bald Man has 0 memorable lines. His script consists entirely of rote threats that could be swapped out with any 5-man boss without anyone being the wiser or narrating the activity he's in the process of doing at this moment like he has Alzheimer's.

"The Sepulcher's secrets will be mine." The Jailer intones, as we watch him teleport to the Sepulcher.
"Mawsworn, come." He tells his army of torture robots as they follow him.
"At last, the final key." He informs us as we see him shove that key into his chest.

Even his raid fight consists of him saying shit like "Break!" "Die!" "Cease to be!" "Expire!" as he hits with you his flail thing with the intent to kill. His dialogue is perfunctory dross. It's useless in providing any insight to the character and in fact actively diminishes him by making him into some boring asshole instead of the Godhead to whom everyone he interacts with is either a slave or will vanish when he resets the universe anyway. He has nothing to say and no reason to say it in the first place.

[Ersula]

They used the New Blight to fight MULTIPLE enemies, including living humans, Vrykul, Gilneas, and so on.

The "They" I was referring to was the Alliance & Horde, during wotlk. Despite a dreadlord's attempted coup, the New Blight was a force of good at that time. Saying that's indicative of Sylvanas being intended to be a villain before Teldrassil is revisionism.

[Vakir]

I'm 100% of the opinion Murozond has enough personality to carry an expansion, and may give us something of a break from the sequence of increasingly-deep voiced hulking douchebags reading off of "baby's first villain script" and following a motivation that changes at a moment's notice.

Also he's Martin Sheen. Ride that Illusive Man iconicness baby.

[Raetary]

N'zoths charisma was sucked out of him the moment he stopped being a fish in the Azshara Warbringer.
When he revealed himself to Azshara, they turned him immediately into a shitty 1D villain with a *deep imposing voice* and who's entire personality revolves around yelling how great he is.

Which is such a damn shame, because fish N'zoth was absolutely the best portrayal of an Old God to date imo.


Bring back the Fish!

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I don't mean ditching what passes for the Bald Man's characterization, I mean quite literally making him mute. Have his tongue ripped out or whatever, keep everything around him as is, with things like Firim's journal and the others explaining his motive and his goons as collective Mouths of Sauron communicating his intent, but don't have him speak a single line of dialogue. The Bald Man has 0 memorable lines. His script consists entirely of rote threats that could be swapped out with any 5-man boss without anyone being the wiser or narrating the activity he's in the process of doing at this moment like he has Alzheimer's.

"The Sepulcher's secrets will be mine." The Jailer intones, as we watch him teleport to the Sepulcher.
"Mawsworn, come." He tells his army of torture robots as they follow him.
"At last, the final key." He informs us as we see him shove that key into his chest.

Even his raid fight consists of him saying shit like "Break!" "Die!" "Cease to be!" "Expire!" as he hits with you his flail thing with the intent to kill. His dialogue is perfunctory dross. It's useless in providing any insight to the character and in fact actively diminishes him by making him into some boring asshole instead of the Godhead to whom everyone he interacts with is either a slave or will vanish when he resets the universe anyway. He has nothing to say and no reason to say it in the first place.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I think they just internally got chills over him being so 5D Chess'd and they then attributed the goofy dialogue to him because he was such a 5D Chess head even if again it doesn't work when you don't build up the character and introduce him first as a shadow in the background and then expand on him going forward into multiple expansions. But, again they never do that. They just showcase a new villain and then bumrush him until he's dead and then throw in a new one for good measure without even recognizing the amount of problems in the canon that were established with the previous villain.

Absolutely I would prefer that if we are zooming ot further on the cosmic chart and we fight bigger bad individuals that they are more of the Cosmic Horror type that do not respond to you rather than all the tomfoolery where they think 1 line dialogue about "scary spooky boo I am death boo" is somehow good enough.

[Super Dickmann]

N'zoths charisma was sucked out of him the moment he stopped being a fish in the Azshara Warbringer.
When he revealed himself to Azshara, they turned him immediately into a shitty 1D villain with a *deep imposing voice* and who's entire personality revolves around yelling how great he is.

Which is such a damn shame, because fish N'zoth was absolutely the best portrayal of an Old God to date imo.

Bring back the Fish!

This is an extremely correct opinion. Other opinions need not apply.

[Vakir]

N'zoths charisma was sucked out of him the moment he stopped being a fish in the Azshara Warbringer.
When he revealed himself to Azshara, they turned him immediately into a shitty 1D villain who speaks a *deep loud voice* and who's entire personality revolves around yelling how great he is.

I'd add one caveat - the sound design of that entire cinematic, paint by numbers dialogue aside, was legit fucking terrifying.

They did screaming one dimensional bullshit about as good as they could which is still not very.

The presentation on all three of the BFA shorts were absolutely next level, even if the storytelling of Teldrassil was a joke.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I don't mean ditching what passes for the Bald Man's characterization, I mean quite literally making him mute. Have his tongue ripped out or whatever, keep everything around him as is, with things like Firim's journal and the others explaining his motive and his goons as collective Mouths of Sauron communicating his intent, but don't have him speak a single line of dialogue. The Bald Man has 0 memorable lines. His script consists entirely of rote threats that could be swapped out with any 5-man boss without anyone being the wiser or narrating the activity he's in the process of doing at this moment like he has Alzheimer's.

"The Sepulcher's secrets will be mine." The Jailer intones, as we watch him teleport to the Sepulcher.
"Mawsworn, come." He tells his army of torture robots as they follow him.
"At last, the final key." He informs us as we see him shove that key into his chest.

Even his raid fight consists of him saying shit like "Break!" "Die!" "Cease to be!" "Expire!" as he hits with you his flail thing with the intent to kill. His dialogue is perfunctory dross. It's useless in providing any insight to the character and in fact actively diminishes him by making him into some boring asshole instead of the Godhead to whom everyone he interacts with is either a slave or will vanish when he resets the universe anyway. He has nothing to say and no reason to say it in the first place.

Remember when we could get functionally the same sentiment communicated through far more interesting dialogue?

"With a whisper etc. etc." from N'Zoth sounds considerably less intimidating than "A thousand deaths, or one murder?"—it's nominally similar sentiment, but one possesses more character, even if the actual depth is fairly shallow. It is rather hollow to hear statements explicitly communicating what are better as undertones.

If Zovaal just had the most minute character, I'm certain that it would be worth hearing some of his dialogue—then again, it could also highlighted how irrelevant he has been thus far plotwise, so giving him more character might not even do any good. I really think the character is simply conceptually-flawed.

[Sondrelk]

N'zoths charisma was sucked out of him the moment he stopped being a fish in the Azshara Warbringer.
When he revealed himself to Azshara, they turned him immediately into a shitty 1D villain with a *deep imposing voice* and who's entire personality revolves around yelling how great he is.

Which is such a damn shame, because fish N'zoth was absolutely the best portrayal of an Old God to date imo.

Couldn't agree more here. His softer voice combined with that eerie red eyed fish just absolutely killed it in making him seem Lovecraftian.

His more booming voice is kinda neat, but really just lowers his presence from something godlike to just another monster.

And while it might be because of my phobia, the whole floating in darkness image absolutely terrified me.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I mean the entire team who does the painting style animations have been killing it since WoD tbh.

Nothing bad to say about them, it's all been great.

I would've preferred the audio dramas continued but obviously much harder and expensive to keep going and it made sense for Legion to go "all out".

[Sondrelk]

I'd add one caveat - the sound design of that entire cinematic, paint by numbers dialogue aside, was legit fucking terrifying.

They did screaming one dimensional bullshit about as good as they could which is still not very.

The presentation on all three of the BFA shorts were absolutely next level, even if the storytelling of Teldrassil was a joke.

The sound design is damn great in that cinematic. From the screaming if the Night Elves being abruptly stopped by that eerie silence of being underwater. And then you hear that absolutely stellar voice, just so damn perfect in being a voice you almost feel like you can trust saying vaguely sinister stuff.
Just the way he says "only I can sustain you" absolutely sentcchills down my spine when I first saw it.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

This is an extremely correct opinion. Other opinions need not apply.

It is almost as though cosmic horror is conceptually about subtlety and buildup, which is why Ulduar and Ahn'Qiraj are remembered fondly but N'Zoth isn't. I think what little potential N'Zoth had as a villain evaporated as soon as he became overexposed. A cosmic horror villain is entirely meant to remain completely unseen until the denouement—if they can be defeated at all, it should be desperately and at great cost. The end of Call of Cthulhu is a great example—by the end, the good guys have nominally won. They plunged their boat into Cthulhu and he's asleep again, and mankind lives to see another day. This is at the cost of several of the expedition's members and the sanity of anyone who survives.

The last time anything was allowed to be a desperate, skin-of-the-teeth battle for survival was in Broken Shore, and after that we've mostly been steamrolling every baddie we came across save for the Jailer, whose effects are hardly actually felt by the time he reaches the Sepulcher. Instead, we went around fighting a bunch of Cosmic Horror monsters who were explicitly and glaringly visible even from the very beginning of the expansion. Azshara's entire relationship with N'Zoth was played very well, and if she were front-and-center with N'Zoth pulling the strings behind her, it could've made for a more interesting dynamic and help to build up the final reveal of N'Zoth at the end of 8.2.

Instead, we were immediately delving straight into part of the body of an Old God and doing so perfectly unscathed as soon as we were raiding in BfA.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I'll be dissapointed in a bard class unless I can send projectile orgasms to space elves by rocking out so hard you can hear it through vacuum.

I considered myself somewhat knoweldge about anime, but you've shown me the error of my ways. Lol. Never seen that one before..

[Varodoc]

Lol.

N'Zoth's charisma doesn't come from disguising himself as a fish. It comes from his nature. He was the weakest Old God, he was imprisoned by beings who could squash him like a bug, he was an underdog essentially. But in the end, he managed to outlast both his stronger siblings and the Titans, by truly manipulating, deceiving, and taking advantage of people.

The reason why N'Zoth consistently features at the top of people's favourite WoW villains is precisely because he's an intriguing antagonist. Someone who is not unhinged like Yogg-Saron, but also not "in your face!" like Sargeras. He's someone who is cunning, elusive, secretive, deceptive, which is a villain archetype that, we can all obviously agree, is lacking in WoW.

That's why people are mad that N'Zoth got that treatment in BfA. The most manipulative and cunning Old God, defeated like it was a cheap episode of DBZ? Just No.

I do not like N'Zoth, but I do respect him as an antagonist. He is a very good villain. And this quote from Xal'atath solidifies this to me:

It is ironic that the weakest of us may be the ultimate victor. C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, Y'Shaarj, and... well. Only one would remain to consume the world, that was always meant to be.

^ This right here is why people love N'Zoth, he's an underdog amongst villains. He was the weakest, he was imprisoned, but against all odds, he came the closest to corrupting the World Soul for the Void.