Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Vakir]

Dude, are you anti-social/anti-fun? It was just me noticing the coincidence/timing, because just earlier today we were talking about N'Zoth's fish form.

Not everything has a double meaning, Jesus.

It's more in reference to the level of certainty expressed earlier, including pre-announcement. I'm not against your fandom, the earlier fanaticism was annoying to me.

You're right. You do you.

[Chickat]

500 pages in 4 weeks? Come on.

Page 1000 was January 23, page 1500 March 15 - and that was during 9.2 PTR and a ton of expansion speculation already. All that could have been said has been said in the last months. I don't see this thread getting 15-20 new pages per day until the announcement.

Yeah, I could see 5 a day. We might even get to 1800 or so, but I don't see anything above 2000 as even possible. Unless there is some big leak that we all agree is real.

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Surely people here don't expect Murozond and Vexiona to carry an entire expansion right? And who else would be there? Galakrond? A hulking brute beast? Chromatus? A beast whose entire existence revolves around him being a pawn and an experiment?

There is no other way, for a Dragon Isles expansion to be interesting, the deities of the Void will have to be involved. As cunning and mysterious as he is, in the end Murozond (the smartest of the aforementioned) is not Main Villain material, and indeed he was relegated to a mere dungeon boss in Cataclysm.

I wonder is Queen Azshara will play a part in the next expansion. Shes done with Old Gods, so I dont see her playing a big part in a void expansion. Im guessing she wants Azeroth's power.

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Right, but then you have people here complaining that one of the flaws of Cataclysm is that the main villain was a big dumb dragon... but at the same time, they want Galakrond or Chromatus as main villain of 10.0??? Literally Deathwing was smarter than both of them combined since he was at least smart enough to manipulate the Alliance of Lordaeron for some time. So people complain that Deathwing was a bad villain but then they want an even dumber dragon as villain of 10.0

There's a reason why people want N'Zoth to come back, and it's because he had charisma, a quality that 90% of the WoW villains lack.

Eh, I think they would-be bosses, but I see the final boss of a dragon Isles expansion being Moruzond. He's very intellegent.

[Varodoc]

Eh, I think they would-be bosses, but I see the final boss of a dragon Isles expansion being Moruzond. He's very intellegent.

So were many other villains who ended up just having a "support" role, like Xavius, Azshara, Denathrius, Kel'thuzad, Kael'Thas, etc.

The Infinite Dragonflight has a unique role in the Story, because they can affect and alter timelines, which makes them a great asset to the Void/the dark powers they serve. I can imagine a scenario or long questline where the Infinite Dragonflight has to be dismantled, maybe even a mid-expansion raid about dismantling the Infinite Dragonflight, but it simply doesn't give me vibes that they are the "real deal", so to say.

Murozond himself, as a villain, only has ties to Nozdormu, since he is a twisted future version of Nozdormu.

[Runeitude]

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/1504560406957891585

Just tweeted by the official account.

As someone who doesn't really want a Tinker class, does this mean what I think it means?

[huth]

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/1504560406957891585

Just tweeted by the official account.

As someone who doesn't really want a Tinker class, does this mean what I think it means?

Unless you're thinking "goblins go boom", no.

[AngerFork]

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/1504560406957891585

Just tweeted by the official account.

As someone who doesn't really want a Tinker class, does this mean what I think it means?

As someone who does want a Tinker class, probably not. This is probably just a generic Goblins doing explodey stuff image. They aren't in a mech suit or anything like.

[The Stormbringer]

The comment of "Did someone say Goblin Mode?" is a bit of an odd one. Not really sure what they're trying to say there.

[Kryllian]

Probably nothing. "Goblin Mode" is being reference in various articles over the last couple of days to describe work from home employees who have stopped getting dressed for work, showering, etc.

[Revamp Man]

So were many other villains who ended up just having a "support" role, like Xavius, Azshara, Denathrius, Kel'thuzad, Kael'Thas, etc.

The Infinite Dragonflight has a unique role in the Story, because they can affect and alter timelines, which makes them a great asset to the Void/the dark powers they serve. I can imagine a scenario or long questline where the Infinite Dragonflight has to be dismantled, maybe even a mid-expansion raid about dismantling the Infinite Dragonflight, but it simply doesn't give me vibes that they are the "real deal", so to say.

Murozond himself, as a villain, only has ties to Nozdormu, since he is a twisted future version of Nozdormu.

But his abilities technically give him ties to every boss

Imagine if galakrond and chromatus were end bosses of 10.0 and 10.1 then in 10.2 we get moruzond and he uses them as mechanics

[GabrielKnight]

That particular image is from a Hearthstone card tho.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Exactly!! After 9.2 final cinematic I was so dissapointed. Blizzard lore was basically dead. It was so bad, so so bad.

But with this article I regained hope! It is not perfect, but It is certainly very appealing (IMO) and would make lore infinitely better!

It would be an improvement to add another superfluous layer to the preexisting superfluity for the sake of a shocking swerve that ultimately does a little tiny bit to maybe tie things together?

I really don't see this as an improvement. Maybe if it were that the Primus had ulterior motives, I could understand it, but all that making the Primus be the secret puppetmaster behind Zovaal does is do exactly what everyone was already worried about—some other bad guy is manipulating Zovaal and everybody else through him. This kind of shocking swerve is unnecessary and exists only to "gotcha" a bored audience.

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The thing is, it doesn't matter whether or not we're suspicious of a character because the game is linear and we can't do anything about it, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be suspicious in-universe. I didn't trust Ve'nari because I thought she was trustworthy. I "trusted" her because the game is linear and there's no option to not trust her. Players wanted to punish the Archon for her tyrannical ways and knowingly throwing people into the Maw, but we don't because her learning that the way she dealt with the Forsworn was wrong was the direction the plot was planned to go (even if that means she still gets no comeuppance for throwing people into the Maw).

Honestly, I still haven't managed to understand the whole "Kyrestia is bad" narrative—I definitely get that the Kyrian are mind-numbingly stupid beyond any reason because "le pattern le purpose le duty", but as far as I've seen it 100% makes sense to brainwash the Kyrians because otherwise a bunch of independent, possibly-malicious actors would make hasty decisions based on short-term emotional judgements of a person. It frankly would've been a better plotline to instead show what happens when something like that does happen and have people agree to stop trying to hijack nature for the sake of freedom, especially since it's rather hypocritical to be upset about failing a set of trials that are opt-in in a place which is also opt-in.

I think it actually just makes things look even more mind-numbingly dumb when they try to frame the whole Kyrian approach as "yeah, people getting to potentially make judgements about where people go after they die is totally the best system." When can people whose entire deal is their devotion to some lofty, higher ideal possibly ever make an incorrect or skewed judgement about someone who doesn't share that ideal?

[Fahrad Wagner]

"le pattern le purpose le duty"

This might become my new signature.

[Chickat]

The comment of "Did someone say Goblin Mode?" is a bit of an odd one. Not really sure what they're trying to say there.

Undermine expansion confirmed.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

If the Primus was behind it, he already had ample opportunity to sabotage the whole thing. Keeping us in the running for this long and risking us breaking things in a way he can't salvage would make no sense.

So no, that'd be a really stupid storyline.

Essentially, the whole thing is founded on a misconception that convolution = smart. The plot is easy to understand, but not intuitive, which is a common mistake I've seen made—often, people will say that the plot makes no sense and others will mock them because they think it means they consider it too complex or too difficult to understand. In actuality, it's very simple in terms of how it flows, it's just that the way it moves is haphazard and the introduction of moving parts makes it too weighty. Everyone understands full well precisely what's going on (well, save for a few), but instead it simply becomes annoying when the plot is suddenly hijacked by "hah! Gotcha! This is the new baddie!"

The only time the increasingly-nonsensical sequence of shocking swerves actually worked was probably with the Dreadlord retcon, namely because it actually received reasonable foreshadowing and answered more questions than it raised—we went to meet a guy named Denathrius who transparently resembled a Nathrezim and shared many of their traits, and then we find these books and watch the mystery sort of unfold. Of course, the way we solve it is mind-numbingly stupid because it involves the assumption that everyone in Revendreth is a complete moron who can't see past their noses, but the buildup was good and the twist itself is good, even if the characters involved are stupid.

[Revamp Man]

10.0 prepatch: Scarlet Rising
The recent events with Anduin and the other leaders has led to the perfect opportunity for the scarlet crusade to make their move. They have teamed up with a few familiar enemies in order to raise the true heir to lordaeron to the throne but their leader seems….different. Stop their assaults and use the currency from defeating the enemies to buy gear and other rewards

10.0: Launch
The scarlet crusade has revealed secrets that have led to a few changes in the alliance and the return of the black prince. Wrathion leads us to the dragon isles where he needs our assistance in uniting the factions of dragons. The twilight cult and scarlet crusade have made their way to the floating isles as well and we must discover their connection.

10.1: the infinite flight
Nozdormu is missing and Chromie has tracked him here with a message left behind saying “do…rescue…time’s….end…coming…isles” the time fragment has led the bronze flight here under Chromie’s supervision and led us to the time lost wastes. We find Nozdormu and he doesn’t remember sending any message but has found members of the infinite flight and is investigating. Nozdormu finds a time rip and prepares to sacrifice himself to seal it putting an end to the infinite flight by breaking the loop and plans on leaving Chromie as the next leader of the flight. Chromie is then taken hostage by moruzond and Nozdormu decides to save Chromie thus allowing the infinite to remain and now they can harness the rift. When Chromie asks why he did that Nozdormu replies “your future is the future of our flight” and then the rift turns him and multiple bronze dragons into the first of the infinite. The rift is then used to turn other bronze members.

10.2: Twilight Scales
The Twilight cult has succeeded in their goal. The heart of the Isles has given them the resources to revive the greatest dragon to ever be created…Chromatus. Chromatus is back better than ever with two extra heads and new void and death powers. His new form also grants the ability to appear as multiple mortals which must all be defeated in order to be killed and he aims for dominance over the isles by revealing he was the rulers of each faction including the black dragon behind the SCARLET CRUSADE?!?!?! Now we must put an end to him and the cult once and for all.


That’s all I got so far now just take it and remove all creativity and good twists then you’ll get Blizzard’s version of the concept

[huth]

The only time the increasingly-nonsensical sequence of shocking swerves actually worked was probably with the Dreadlord retcon, namely because it actually received reasonable foreshadowing and answered more questions than it raised—we went to meet a guy named Denathrius who transparently resembled a Nathrezim and shared many of their traits, and then we find these books and watch the mystery sort of unfold. Of course, the way we solve it is mind-numbingly stupid because it involves the assumption that everyone in Revendreth is a complete moron who can't see past their noses, but the buildup was good and the twist itself is good, even if the characters involved are stupid.

And, for that matter, it fits with their pre-existing modus operandi.

Though i would argue that the Prince is in fact a moron who can barely even find his nose.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I think it actually just makes things look even more mind-numbingly dumb when they try to frame the whole Kyrian approach as "yeah, people getting to potentially make judgements about where people go after they die is totally the best system." When can people whose entire deal is their devotion to some lofty, higher ideal possibly ever make an incorrect or skewed judgement about someone who doesn't share that ideal?

Actually, I'm going to further add to this because after thinking about it, the whole deal with Bastion makes no fucking sense. Firstly, why are people who would become Forsworn even going to Bastion at all? Wasn't the Arbiter supposed to be an absolutely-impartial and objective moral—well, arbiter? Assuming you have an inherent, absolute understanding of every single person you ever meet from an instantaneous glance, how could you possibly make the mistake of sending someone who wouldn't agree to the whole brainwashing shtick to Bastion?

In fact, drawing from that, why do they need to have trials in Bastion at all? There's already a trial that has determined plenty about if they're worthy to be a Kyrian—life. That's how an afterlife works. You're judged and you're sent to a place you're deemed worthy of—why would you go to Bastion if you aren't worthy of being there in the first place? It would be pretty easy to determine from a person's entire life history if they'd agree to give up their memories and history to become an impartial spiritual deliveryman. Why would the Arbiter send souls to Bastion if her observation didn't already confirm that they're absolutely worthy of being there?

We already see that the Arbiter can determine the value of memory—she sent Mograine to Maldraxxus precisely because his personality made him more suited for it and because his memories and history motivated him, as opposed to his devotion to ideological concepts. He was better suited to it for precisely the reasons that the Forsworn shouldn't have been sent to Bastion. Why did the Arbiter make that call correctly with him, but not with the Forsworn? I suppose it could simply be that they'd be better off without their memories but would simply refuse to have them expunged regardless, but even then that offers up the question of why the Arbiter would send them there when she would, as aforementioned, just know that they'd refuse anyway based on her analysis of their personality? It puts the Arbiter's nominally-perfect judgement far more into question than the function of Bastion or anywhere else.

Perhaps a better motive for the Forsworn could've been that they wanted to be interventionist, not that they wanted to keep their memories. Instead of being passive psychopomps, they want to actively intervene in the world of the living to pursue their agenda—they don't necessarily oppose the brainwashing and may even be more supportive of it to maximize their own impartiality, but instead their misunderstanding of the system comes about because they decide they want to LARP as Maldraxxus. They feel like they have the right to not only ferry people to the afterlife, but also to make judgements about the living, as well—they'd want to invade the living world and start meddling in its affairs to maximize abstract achievements of valor by any given civilization, and that would even tie better in to Uther casting Arthas into the Maw. Rather than simply presenting a motive to maintain his memories, it would instead motivate Uther and co. to intervene more when they come to believe that their passivity is a problem.

Whilst remaining objectively wrong, they would be far more sympathetic than a coterie of sore losers who couldn't pass their trials. They would misunderstand why they were sent to Bastion and confuse service there for service abroad, trying to shift their role from that of a passive bulwark to that of a spearhead, taking the role of Maldraxxus with personalities unsuited to it.

[KainneAbsolute]

I intentionally left my last post to be based on art and models we actually have, but to indulge the speculation a bit more, I want to draw some other conclusions about what I said about the gold and silver cosmetics.

I wonder if the Jailer was always meant to be, well, the Jailer, and not the Arbiter. Something that's never addressed in the version of the story we have is who watched over the Maw before Zovaal was sent there, or why the Maw isn't just a prison or wasteland, but is conspicuously fragmented. My theory is that Zovaal was originally the Eternal One of the Maw, the Jailer of the Damned. He kept the rest of the Shadowlands safe from evil in prisons of golden spires.

At some point, however, he still turned evil. Perhaps it was even more like Sargeras, or the original Sargeras. Being the warden of such absolutely, terrifyingly evil souls destroyed Zovaal existentially, so he sought out the Sepulcher of the First Ones in order to remake reality without the potential for such evil. With the realms of the Eternal Ones reflecting their nature, as Zovaal turned bad, the gold faded and the Maw became desolate.

When his siblings learned about his desperate plan, like the Pantheon they turned against him to stop him. A war broke out, and the Maw was shattered. Ultimately, Zovaal lost and was chained in his own realm, then they sealed the place off and threw away the key.

Or maybe Zovaal tried to create a new Shadowlands. I don't like that Zovaal's original role was the jailer because precisely Sargeras also had a jail (Mardum), and the similarities between Zovaal and Sargeras go too far (unless Blizzard wanted that).

I prefer to look Zovaal and Sargeras as opposites sides of the mirror:
- Sargeras defeated his family///Zovaal defeated by his family
- Sargeras created a jail /// Zovaal sought redemption for the true evils.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

10.0 prepatch: Scarlet Rising
The recent events with Anduin and the other leaders has led to the perfect opportunity for the scarlet crusade to make their move. They have teamed up with a few familiar enemies in order to raise the true heir to lordaeron to the throne but their leader seems….different. Stop their assaults and use the currency from defeating the enemies to buy gear and other rewards

10.0: Launch
The scarlet crusade has revealed secrets that have led to a few changes in the alliance and the return of the black prince. Wrathion leads us to the dragon isles where he needs our assistance in uniting the factions of dragons. The twilight cult and scarlet crusade have made their way to the floating isles as well and we must discover their connection.

10.1: the infinite flight
Nozdormu is missing and Chromie has tracked him here with a message left behind saying “do…rescue…time’s….end…coming…isles” the time fragment has led the bronze flight here under Chromie’s supervision and led us to the time lost wastes. We find Nozdormu and he doesn’t remember sending any message but has found members of the infinite flight and is investigating. Nozdormu finds a time rip and prepares to sacrifice himself to seal it putting an end to the infinite flight by breaking the loop and plans on leaving Chromie as the next leader of the flight. Chromie is then taken hostage by moruzond and Nozdormu decides to save Chromie thus allowing the infinite to remain and now they can harness the rift. When Chromie asks why he did that Nozdormu replies “your future is the future of our flight” and then the rift turns him and multiple bronze dragons into the first of the infinite. The rift is then used to turn other bronze members.

10.2: Twilight Scales
The Twilight cult has succeeded in their goal. The heart of the Isles has given them the resources to revive the greatest dragon to ever be created…Chromatus. Chromatus is back better than ever with two extra heads and new void and death powers. His new form also grants the ability to appear as multiple mortals which must all be defeated in order to be killed and he aims for dominance over the isles by revealing he was the rulers of each faction including the black dragon behind the SCARLET CRUSADE?!?!?! Now we must put an end to him and the cult once and for all.

That makes no sense. Where would Chromatus get the new heads? Why would the Dragons use the Scarlet Crusade (well, save for them just being plain moronic)? Why would Nozdormu become Murozond just from being caught in a rift? Isn't it already established that the Infinites aren't """corrupted""" (in the Blizzard vernacular), but have an actual ideological motive underlying their behavior?

[Shadochi]

Interesting thing crossed my mind, we didn't see any Order or Chaos cosmic forces in Shadowlands, other cosmic forces are represented. I guess you could stretch the Dreadlords as Chaos presence but I don't think it is well since they originate from the Shadowlands and were just on a mission among Chaos forces.

Death is obvious.
Light is present in the form of Naaru in Revendreth.
Void invading Bastion.
Life in the form of Elune's magic.

But no Titan stuff for Order or demonic stuff for Chaos