Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Izalla]

This seems likely as in the Beta there was text about what the Maw was before being the Maw, which are absent from the release version where the Maw is explicitly put together by the Jailer through a mixture of yanking parts of other afterlives and the residue of the soul that the Maw processes. That said I don't think that's exclusive with Zovaal being meant to be the Arbiter. Rather that Oribos, like the attendants and the artificial Arbiter are all substitutes for what was already there. Torghast was the original center of the Shadowlands, which is why all souls default to it.

I really like this idea.

[TheFirstOnes]

So did N'zoth's defeat mean nothing?

SL is so bad, people somehow like to think N'Zoth trapped us in a vision or some shit, despite 8.3's entire purpose making sure we DIDN'T succumb to something like that to fucking begin with...

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"The Jailer is afraid of the Void Lords" even tho the Void Lords have all but been showcased to not trust nor like Death whatsoever, even as to outright call them the "Enemy of ALL", despite there APPARENTLY being a bigger bad beyond even them...

Which btw, I think was prolly going to be the case regardless, as well as heard of "the seventh" and whatnot.

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I'm always just reminded of how in Diablo II the only time Diablo talks to you is when you summon him to fight him and then all he says is "not even death can save you from me." Until then you are so unimportant to him he doesn't give a shit that you're following him. The obstacles he placed in your path are not for you, they are for anyone who would attempt to follow him just so that he doesn't have to be bothered by your interference. The one time you think you've caught him he just casually strolls away from you and then poofs into a bunch of those flesh beasts. He is just utterly unconcerned by you.

And then in Diablo III he taunts you constantly and you reply telling him how much you are gonna beat his ass and then you beat his ass and it isn't satisfying and he wasn't scary.

All fun and games till I get so fucking annoyed by this "bigger baddie" shit, that this theme starts to play in the background during every raid I step into:

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The Kratos Theme finna be every WoW Player when we either get a quest telling us to kill a Cosmic Pantheon member, or a whole Cosmic Pantheon cause the quest gives us any type of loot, and they give upgrades to the players. Or it's just gonna be us to the Devs and every NPC in the game whenever we see one more fucking "BIGGER BAD" narrative...

[KainneAbsolute]

I agree with this overall.

I know a lot of people take the idea and run with it, and treat her like she's maliciously and proudly evil just because they don't agree with her actions. I don't think she's evil, and I don't think she was meant to be seen as such, but what you called mind-numbingly stupid I could argue as evil in a 'good does evil-through-inaction or evil-through-enabling' sort of way. The whole knowingly throwing people into the Maw is one of the worst actions done in the expansion, especially since it's a major contributor to the main villain's plan (well, ambiguously at least, since it theoretically should be causing or heavily contributing to the drought, but the story treats the drought as something Denathrius exclusively caused just by hoarding).

I always thought that Kyrestia cleansed the memories of the souls to have obedient soldiers, who Zovaal does not tempt. So at the start, I theorized that maybe a part of Bastion joined the Jailer because their mortal memories helped to understand Zovaal's point of view. I theorized this when Devos had a lot of empathy with Uther. The Devos situation was 1000% worse with Kyrians with full memories.

It never happened so it was speculation on my part.

[Zankai27]

I think the Devourers are a solid candidate for the threat Zovaal was talking about, or if not that, a secondary major threat. They seem like a feral group of beasts with the ability to show up wherever their hunger leads them, and their unknown and unpredictable nature makes them both appreciable and interesting. Though they're also the kind of thing where I think learning too much would ruin them, they do succeed at feeling more alien than anything in a game with literal playable aliens.

Though being real, I bet you Zovaal's dropping more hints about the Cosmic War spurned on by something outside the Cosmic Forces. Currently brainstorming about a "Progenitor" First Ones-themed class that could debut in such a thing with the purpose of ending it.

[huth]

I think the Devourers are a solid candidate for the threat Zovaal was talking about, or if not that, a secondary major threat. They seem like a feral group of beasts with the ability to show up wherever their hunger leads them, and their unknown and unpredictable nature makes them both appreciable and interesting. Though they're also the kind of thing where I think learning too much would ruin them, they do succeed at feeling more alien than anything in a game with literal playable aliens.

Actually, the Oracle says they're there by design during this weeks Campaign. Probably a garbage collection mechanism.

[Revamp Man]

Actually, the Oracle says they're there by design during this weeks Campaign. Probably a garbage collection mechanism.

It’s like introducing a form of population control

[Hitei]

Actually, the Oracle says they're there by design during this weeks Campaign. Probably a garbage collection mechanism.

It's not inconsistent with what we know of the seventh, which is unclear on if they are or are not originally purposed by the First Ones. If there role was to act as an eraser to the six's pencil, but they've veered off their original course and are intent on erasing everything, that would check out with both what the Oracle says and what we know of the seventh.

[Vakir]

I'm always just reminded of how in Diablo II the only time Diablo talks to you is when you summon him to fight him and then all he says is "not even death can save you from me." Until then you are so unimportant to him he doesn't give a shit that you're following him. The obstacles he placed in your path are not for you, they are for anyone who would attempt to follow him just so that he doesn't have to be bothered by your interference. The one time you think you've caught him he just casually strolls away from you and then poofs into a bunch of those flesh beasts. He is just utterly unconcerned by you.

And then in Diablo III he taunts you constantly and you reply telling him how much you are gonna beat his ass and then you beat his ass and it isn't satisfying and he wasn't scary.

GRAHAHA...YOU ARE TOO LATE, NEPHALEM. YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THIS TORMENT.

Man, people give Azmodan shit for telling us his life story, but at least he's not the big bad and has an interesting design. Fuck Diablo in that game.

[huth]

It's not inconsistent with what we know of the seventh, which is unclear on if they are or are not originally purposed by the First Ones. If there role was to act as an eraser to the six's pencil, but they've veered off their original course and are intent on erasing everything, that would check out with both what the Oracle says and what we know of the seventh.

Disagree. What's been said about the seventh suggests it's outside the First Ones design. The Devourers are stated to be a necessary part of it.

[Vakir]

"Nonexistence," then, maybe? I sure hope they're not visually/thematically indicative of the bigger representative of said force - I hate the Devourer aesthetic.

...yeah, that's really shallow sounding but art style and sound design is the main thing I have to look forward to in the present narrative style.

[Ersula]

Disagree. What's been said about the seventh suggests it's outside the First Ones design. The Devourers are stated to be a necessary part of it.

Where does it say that? The necessary carnivores they're talking about are just beasts & monsters: The Devourerers specifically are so incompatible with the First Ones' technology that, as we see in ZM, consuming it causes them to corrupt & slowly die. That sounds like "outside the system" to me.

[Hitei]

Disagree. What's been said about the seventh suggests it's outside the First Ones design. The Devourers are stated to be a necessary part of it.

That's not what was stated though. What was stated is that they had a purpose. Not that they were part of the specific pattern formed by the six. Since an oracle considers the best path their total elimination--they obviously aren't "a necessary part of it".

If their original purpose was, as above, to Ctrl+Z things that the First ones made but weren't happy with, then they had a purpose, but are not a part of the current design/pattern involving the six. If the First Ones were happy with how the six and one turned out, then there'd be no more need for that removal system--leaving them potentially purposeless and redundant. If they began trying to delete everything of their own accord, they would be "disharmonious" and need to be destroyed.

[jzhbee]

That's not what was stated though. What was stated is that they had a purpose. Not that they were part of the specific pattern formed by the six. Since an oracle considers the best path their total elimination--they obviously aren't "a necessary part of it".

If their original purpose was, as above, to Ctrl+Z things that the First ones made but weren't happy with, then they had a purpose, but are not a part of the current design/pattern involving the six. If the First Ones were happy with how the six and one turned out, then there'd be no more need for that removal system--leaving them potentially purposeless and redundant. If they began trying to delete everything of their own accord, they would be "disharmonious" and need to be destroyed.

Actually, if you think about it in that lens: Devourers (outside of Zereth Mortis) are attracted to only one thing: Anima. And as far as we know, the predominant or in fact only way of producing anima comes from mortal souls when they arrive in Shadowlands. So Devourers don't appear to be antagonistic to all cosmic forces. Specifically, they seem to wish to devour LIFE.

[Dracullus]

They just announced ZA for TBC Classic a few minutes ago

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New Classic SoM AND TBC Classic news tonight. Retail INC??

It's pretty fast, imo it points even more on Wrath Classic this year and 10.0 at least in Q1 2023. Only Sunwell is left and they can release it June/July.

Hopefully 9.2.5 PTR soon, it's not like it would clash with some big race hype this week, they still have final 4 bosses to go.

[Lady Atia]

The entirety of the Shadowlands we visited are Ordered, and concept art shows the makings of "Order" and "Chaos" zones that turned into Bastion and Maldraxxus respectively.


Bastion orders righteous/just souls.
Revendreth orders twisted/sinful souls.
Ardenweald orders the Cycle of Death into Life.
Maldraxxus orders the defense and offense of the Shadowlands as a whole.

The Arbiter of course at the helm of all of this ordering. The First Ones are being pitched as beings who Order things.. If it sounds familiar to the Titans, it's simply intended. Either they are the Titans (thankgod), or the Titans are truly just underlings to their cause. (plsgodno)


And honestly if Zereth Mortis isn't the most Order-based zone ingame, I can't immediately think what else would be.

Now I really want that "Halls of Purification" Dungeon.



Imagine if they had actually explored Spirit Healers in detail this Expansion.

[Sondrelk]

Disagree. What's been said about the seventh suggests it's outside the First Ones design. The Devourers are stated to be a necessary part of it.

I still stand by my theory that reality is the seventh force, as represented by Azeroth. Something to which the six cosmic forces are both a part of, and opposed to simultaneously. Something which grew organically from the framework of the six forces, and which doesn't seem to have been made according to any First Ones plan.

It has light affiliated zealots, necromancers, adherents of the void, druids, warlocks and mages. Every cosmic force capable of being combined into one to oppose any other cosmic force. And which is vast enough to contain anything.

It would fit pretty much perfectly to Firim talking about how the seventh force was both created and not. Both a seventh force alongside the others, and simultaneously one opposite the six others combined.

[Nyel]

It's pretty fast, imo it points even more on Wrath Classic this year and 10.0 at least in Q1 2023. Only Sunwell is left and they can release it June/July.

Yeah, I agree here. I think they'll release WotLK Classic on its 14th anniversary this November. I don't see the new WoW expansion launch this year anymore.

[Skildar]

GRAHAHA...YOU ARE TOO LATE, NEPHALEM. YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THIS TORMENT.

Man, people give Azmodan shit for telling us his life story, but at least he's not the big bad and has an interesting design. Fuck Diablo in that game.

Azmodan was a cartoon character that reminded me of crash bandicoot 3 cortex popping up before a loading screen.

[huth]

That's not what was stated though. What was stated is that they had a purpose. Not that they were part of the specific pattern formed by the six. Since an oracle considers the best path their total elimination--they obviously aren't "a necessary part of it".

They aren't supposed to be in Zereth Mortis, as evidenced by the Jiro questline in the northwest. Which means the First Ones did have means to control them, Zovaal just disrupted those. They're still stated to be a required part of the whole construct.

[looney troons]