Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Vakir]

Um he wasn't slapped on a box, SL was actually the first one that didn't have any character at all (not even generic) on the box. But I understand what you mean, going into the expansion people assumed he would have a Magni/Khadgar role, but seems like they stepped down from having one character like that.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wor...s_Base_Edition
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/3dr0dE

Nobody, NOBODY bought this physical, so it's possible he wasn't on it afterall, but it was intended to be so.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I believe this is way more of an issue (the Sylvi part) than him just being shown as an Anima Orb. Doing anything further with him in SL would just be another "Break Glass" scenario, but feels bad having her take all the spotlight when more important figures in his life were there (Jaina and Uther).

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Um he wasn't slapped on a box, SL was actually the first one that didn't have any character at all (not even generic) on the box. But I understand what you mean, going into the expansion people assumed he would have a Magni/Khadgar role, but seems like they stepped down from having one character like that.

I think this is because Sylvanas was the last one who still needed to have peace over Arthas though. Jaina made her peace over him during the BfA questline, Uther in SL... out of the three, I think she was the one who deserved closure the more, especially when acknowleding she had become the monster he was once.

I disliked many things about SL storytelling... but that cinematic I liked!

[Hyrja]

The primus actually is the jailer isnt he? What a plot twist lol.

[Baedril]

Why would that alienate the playerbase? I am not being sassy here, just asking to understand your full thought.

I am obviously not that guy, but my personal gripe with is the merging of classes. As much as I can see why they might want to do it, I definitely feel like that would alienate a lot of people. People don't want to be a retribution warrior, or priest, they want to be and *are* a paladin and I can't really imagine any mergers that would not leave people from the original class upset.

[TheFirstOnes]

*Writes poorly.*

"Actual human garbage. Serious disgrace. My priorities are not skewed in the slightest."

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Anything that isn't literally first alpha build no changes is going to alienate the playerbase, if my reading of MMO-Champion posts is correct and informed.

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Some of us are still coping and trying to pretend this story won't be entirely built on oneupsmanshp and retcons.

Considering Marvel, DC, and Dragon Ball do this on the daily almost...

I'm not shocked WoW's doing this too.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I am obviously not that guy, but my personal gripe with is the merging of classes. As much as I can see why they might want to do it, I definitely feel like that would alienate a lot of people. People don't want to be a retribution warrior, or priest, they want to be and *are* a paladin and I can't really imagine any mergers that would not leave people from the original class upset.

Ah, in that sense. I thought he was referring to a world revamp alienating players, hence my confusion. Merging classes would be a terrible decision, and it would definitely upset people, on that we agree!

[Kiria]

I think this is because Sylvanas was the last one who still needed to have peace over Arthas though. Jaina made her peace over him during the BfA questline, Uther in SL... out of the three, I think she was the one who deserved closure the more, especially when acknowleding she had become the monster he was once.

I disliked many things about SL storytelling... but that cinematic I liked!

You have hit the nail on the head, Uther and Jaina have gotten over what Arthas did them and they have found peace, Sylvanas was the only character who hadn't had the chance too.

[DiscipleofCazicThule]

10.0 is a soft reboot called Lightbound. Lordaeron is the main setting with a new leveling experience. It is its own continent so old Lordaeron still exists. New Lordaeron has a different shape since the zones aren’t 1:1. The New Lordaeron has been built up in a way that mixes both the Cataclysm revamp and the way Draenor was built off of Outland. The foundation for 10.0 has been worked on since after Legion, which is why people have datamined so many human related architecture over the years. It was originally going to be 9.0 with Shadowlands being the following expansion but some delays when working on Lordaeron in 2017 led to Shadowlands being made first. Lightbound was originally supposed to help build up the Jailor, the Shadowlands, and the mystery of the First Ones. Exile’s Reach originally was going to be about Lightbound ogres from Highmaul invading Azeroth rather than necromancers.

No other zones offer experience anymore. There is a leveling phase and a max level phase. Level 60 characters have things to do in all zones except for Exile’s Reach which was added in Shadowlands. Player cities in brackets.

01-10: Exile’s Reach
01-10: Arathor (Stormgarde)
01-10: Ebon Enclave (New Avalon)
10-20: Hillsbrad Foothills
10-20: The Channel Islands
20-30: Silverpine Forest
20-30: Zul’Dare
30-40: Alterac Mountains (Alterac)
30-40: Eastern Highlands (Hammerfall)
40-45: The Hinterlands (Aerie Peak)
40-45: Scarlet Coast
45-50: Gilneas (Gilneas)
45-50: Crushridge
50-53: Eastweald (Stratholme)
52-55: Tol Barad
54-57: The Ghostlands
56-59: Sunwell Isle
58-60: Zul’Aman
60-60: The Dragon Isles
60-60: Lordaeron
60-60: Quel’thalas

Level squish to 50. The original goal was to squish the levels back to 10 so even old players would have to level through all of Lordaeron's story, but now that Shadowlands brought in a squish already it's believed there would be a very negative response to going even further next time. The total level squishing and Chromie time was never intended to be a permanent change but instead a temporary band-aid while the new leveling system was worked on. Similarly old profession recipes and their related resources are becoming cosmetic only, making Lordaeron the only viable place for gameplay-enhancing profession work.

There are new dungeons from 15-60 (all with heroic and mythic level 60 versions). It's not yet decided whether old dungeons will be available to new players yet or if only the new dungeons will reward experience and gear.

Main story is focused on the Lightbound; a coalition of Yrel’s orc and draenei forces, Calia Menethil’s ‘new’ forsaken, Turalyon’s Alliance (which has conquered Silvermoon with the help of Liadrin), and the Scarlet Brotherhood. They are all working to drain Azeroth’s world soul to empower Xe’ra. The first raid is in a rebuilt holy Lordaeron City.

3 new neutral races; Dracona, Amani Trolls, Alteracis.

Classes and professions getting completely reworked. There are now no limits on how many professions you can have per character and progress is shared across all characters. Some classes are being merged making 5-6 spec classes with some shared traits and abilities. The number is being lowered from 12 to 8 classes. A few new specs for the classes that were not merged with another.

Cross faction guilds and grouping. No city, town, or quest in Lordaeron is faction locked. Previous expansion content is still faction locked.

New battleground set in Kul Tiras. Sides are auto-balanced and not Horde vs. Alliance. Previous battlegrounds are so far unchanged.

This has got to have some of the dumbest ideas I have ever seen in a leak. Instead of a new class, they will remove classes? A new level squish after the last one. Alteracis? What even is that, besides a play on Alterac? Just so much bad in one "leak."

[Sondrelk]

You have hit the nail on the head, Uther and Jaina have gotten over what Arthas did them and they have found peace, Sylvanas was the only character who hadn't had the chance too.

Problem is that we don't really get Sylvanas accepting she became worse than Arthas, instead seemingly deciding to take a place of moral superiority when her character is already heavily disliked for her horrible morality in the game.

[Khaza-R]

I think Arthas send off was good. What else should happen? A ghost of him appear and go like "lol forgive me"? Or more Garrosh style "I regret nothing"? Get him send to Arbiter again for some happy lil redemption? A battered, amorphous soul remnant dissipating to a moody melody was great and did not ruin his ending from the past. Now, if it only was not Sylvi who did the send off...

I think people disliked that it was predominately about Sylvanas with Jaina and Uther present. I think it just exacerbated people's concerns the story this expansion is entirely too focused on Sylvanas. You could argue Uther had closure of sorts when he dropped him in the Maw but not for his repentance after. And Jaina never had any closure I am aware of. While Sylvanas closure was detailed in the Edge of Night. We really didn't need more of her dialogue on the situation.

I know there are people who probably wanted to see Arthas actually speak or do something himself, but I agree his original story had a perfect ending. The less they touched on it the better in the end.

[Revamp Man]

The way people latch on to any mediocre white male character in warcraft is inspiring, honestly

Or the fact the Lich King who was shown in legion and BfA to be a heavy hitter was reduced to a magni role

Then Arthas who you could argue was important to every character there got relegated to a little orb while Sylvanas goes “you hurt me so I committed genocide and only now do I get closure despite that being a thing over a decade ago because I’m a deep and complex character”

[Kiria]

Problem is that we don't really get Sylvanas accepting she became worse than Arthas, instead seemingly deciding to take a place of moral superiority when her character is already heavily disliked for her horrible morality in the game.

I don't know, I kinda disagree as she admits herself she became a monster.

[Shadochi]

I think this is because Sylvanas was the last one who still needed to have peace over Arthas though. Jaina made her peace over him during the BfA questline, Uther in SL... out of the three, I think she was the one who deserved closure the more, especially when acknowleding she had become the monster he was once.

I disliked many things about SL storytelling... but that cinematic I liked!

That makes sense. As a cinematic that one is great imo (first half being better than second, but second still good), my issue was just the timing of it when we already have her in the spotlight in every cinematic.

But I agree on Jaina and Uther points, for Jaina he was a love interest at most and its been over 11 years. She ended most of her story with him with Wrath and the rest in BfA as you said.

[Fahrad Wagner]

That makes sense. As a cinematic that one is great imo (first half being better than second, but second still good), my issue was just the timing of it when we already have her in the spotlight in every cinematic.

But I agree on Jaina and Uther points, for Jaina he was a love interest at most and its been over 11 years. She ended most of her story with him with Wrath and the rest in BfA as you said.

Plus, she's into dragons now... right? :x

[Sondrelk]

I don't know, I kinda disagree as she admits herself she became a monster.

It's how it comes across in general. A problem that kinda begins with the whole Sylvanas soul split giving her plausible deniablity she really shouldnt have. The writers essentially cheated Sylvanas into not being fully responsible for her horrendous actions by using the soul split to give us a version of Sylvanas who has quite literally not done anything.
It comes across as very cheap.

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That makes sense. As a cinematic that one is great imo (first half being better than second, but second still good), my issue was just the timing of it when we already have her in the spotlight in every cinematic.

But I agree on Jaina and Uther points, for Jaina he was a love interest at most and its been over 11 years. She ended most of her story with him with Wrath and the rest in BfA as you said.

Really I would have just had Arthas fade without saying much of anything.
We see the soul, Jaina remarks how weak it is, Uther says there isnt enough of a soul to save at all, then it just fades in silence.
None of the Sylvanas grandstanding, and instead we just get Arthas fading from the story completely in a way that doesnt leave any loose ends for the player, and lets us interpret how much culpability he really had without ever needing to actually take a firm stance on it.

Sylvanas being there really undercuts the impact when she is so horribly written. You can't really get anything resembling pathos from her when you are constantly reminded how schizophrenic the character is.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Then Arthas who you could argue was important to every character there got relegated to a little orb while Sylvanas goes “you hurt me so I committed genocide and only now do I get closure despite that being a thing over a decade ago because I’m a deep and complex character”

It's chiefly based on the mistaken belief that being more of a prick makes a character more complex. Curiously, it only makes her appear frustrating when her choices are entirely based on something which much of what is functionally an entire race and fully-functional nation has gotten over and learned to move past. Unfortunately, "tinpot dictator" doesn't work for some people even though it would quite frankly make her far more fun and interesting of a character if she were simply allowed to be a cunning and effective despot rather than a perpetually-moping edgelord.

I don't see Ersula's comment about "mediocre white male" characters making any sense when Sylvanas is made into the single most stereotypical, banal female villain ever by blaming all of her evil behaviors on a more-malicious male. Back in Warcraft III, we had a very good characterization for Sylvanas, and we got a pretty good, consistent motive for her well into Cataclysm. Unfortunately, "despot wants to avoid dying" isn't enough of a hook for Blizzard's writers because it involves having to write a character with actual depth or nuance based on a very simple premise, so they instead have to obfuscate horrendously superfluous and redundant characterization under "lol she's sad and angry at the universe". It could even be more interesting if there was some emphasis on what people who blame the inherent function of the universe for their own bad decisions are actually like—there are plenty of people in real life who decide that because people act immorally, they therefore have an excuse to act immorally, consequently inspiring more people to do the same etc. without any willingness to acknowledge the irony.

Essentially, the top-tier generic anti-hero we've gotten out of Sylvanas is a waste of several potentially good motives that were brought up and promptly discarded. Not every tinpot dictator needs to want to destroy the entire function of the universe—sometimes a tinpot dictator can simply sit in her dictatorship being the North Korea of WoW. The Forsaken were always a very interesting race when they had some diversity of interests but were generally united under Sylvanas' charismatic dictatorship—she was arguably the first quasi-modern personalistic dictator on Azeroth, and there was plenty to do with that. Her Cataclysm arc, for instance, showed plenty that could be done to put Sylvanas in the spotlight—Silverpine was a great questline and showed the Forsaken had plenty of potential other than moping over the now-dead Arthas' malignant actions for the rest of their eternal unlives.

Sylvanas being there really undercuts the impact when she is so horribly written. You can't really get anything resembling pathos from her when you are constantly reminded how schizophrenic the character is.

Agreed. She had plenty of potential to be a very good character post-Arthas, and it would've been very fun to see her do something on a smaller scale.

Really I would have just had Arthas fade without saying much of anything.
We see the soul, Jaina remarks how weak it is, Uther says there isnt enough of a soul to save at all, then it just fades in silence.
None of the Sylvanas grandstanding, and instead we just get Arthas fading from the story completely in a way that doesnt leave any loose ends for the player, and lets us interpret how much culpability he really had without ever needing to actually take a firm stance on it.

I much prefer this thought. Sometimes less is more—instead of melancholy music and a soliloquy from a character everyone's already fucking sick of, we could get plenty more pathos and satisfaction from a scene that quietly wraps up Arthas forever.

[Fahrad Wagner]

It's how it comes across in general. A problem that kinda begins with the whole Sylvanas soul split giving her plausible deniablity she really shouldnt have. The writers essentially cheated Sylvanas into not being fully responsible for her horrendous actions by using the soul split to give us a version of Sylvanas who has quite literally not done anything.
It comes across as very cheap.

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Really I would have just had Arthas fade without saying much of anything.
We see the soul, Jaina remarks how weak it is, Uther says there isnt enough of a soul to save at all, then it just fades in silence.
None of the Sylvanas grandstanding, and instead we just get Arthas fading from the story completely in a way that doesnt leave any loose ends for the player, and lets us interpret how much culpability he really had without ever needing to actually take a firm stance on it.

Sylvanas being there really undercuts the impact when she is so horribly written. You can't really get anything resembling pathos from her when you are constantly reminded how schizophrenic the character is.

That's the thing though, she isn't exactly the same Sylvanas as the one who committed those atrocities. Her soul is full now, former ranger general... and Teldrassil butcher. If the absolute psychopath that she was in previous expansions deserves no compassion from us... I feel for her former self, now merged with the monster that she has become. Even if that part of herself is only a fragment of her whole self... I think this part of her deserved closure. And now I'm gonna stop saying self, cause I said that a lot haha!

[Shadochi]

Problem is that we don't really get Sylvanas accepting she became worse than Arthas, instead seemingly deciding to take a place of moral superiority when her character is already heavily disliked for her horrible morality in the game.

I dont really think she is worse than Arthas. Yes she did Teldrassil, but still I think Arthas did way worse things and more suffered because of him (both before and after officially becoming the LK). Both did terrible things but Arthas did worse IMO. If you look the end goals of each character then sure her was worse (she was consciously working for reality while Arthas probably didn't know or didn't have control), but that was never accomplished.

This brings me to something else about the Jailer that people have been bashing how he planned all of this and knew it would go perfectly to bring him to this point. I am more under the impression as that he set off a lot of stuff in hopes that something would lead to this. If you look at the individual stuff he took credit for you can see that those could also lead in different ways to his goal. For example setting up a lich king, his goal was probably to get rid of life on Azeroth so that he could complete his goal without an issue and have an army of the material plane. Probably have the LK destroy the helm to open the veil after all of Azeroth is under the scourge.

----

To add to this, if the Primus Jailer theory is true, this also makes sense since we know the Primus became a master strategist and tactician because he had someone show him into the infinite timeways to train him. So he could've also see the events possible to lead him to where we are in order to get to this point, reaching the Sepulcher for some knowledge (Zovaal didn't really seek knowledge, just power), finalizing the domination rune language with the language of the first ones and having the Arbiter under his control. Also the other Eternal Ones thinking the threat is dealt with.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

To add to this, if the Primus Jailer theory is true, this also makes sense since we know the Primus became a master strategist and tactician because he had someone show him into the infinite timeways to train him. So he could've also see the events possible to lead him to where we are in order to get to this point, reaching the Sepulcher for some knowledge (Zovaal didn't really seek knowledge, just power), finalizing the domination rune language with the language of the first ones and having the Arbiter under his control. Also the other Eternal Ones thinking the threat is dealt with.

I seriously don't understand the fascination with this theory. All it does is add an extraneous level of convolution that really doesn't make the plot any better. All it does is add another layer of scheming villainy to the layers of scheming villainy, and this villain is only moderately more interesting than the others. It is also very contingent on all sorts of presumptions and stretches of the imagination. Why not just let a bad plot be a bad plot rather than accidentally make it even more nonsensical by trying to fix it?

[Sondrelk]

That's the thing though, she isn't exactly the same Sylvanas as the one who committed those atrocities. Her soul is full now, former ranger general... and Teldrassil butcher. If the absolute psychopath that she was in previous expansions deserves no compassion from us... I feel for her former self, now merged with the monster that she has become. Even if that part of herself is a fragment of her whole self... I think this part of her deserved closure. And now I'm gonna stop saying self, cause I said that a lot haha!

That is the part of the story I really despise. Because of course Ranger-General Sylvanas hasnt done anything, that's the point. What this does however is cheat us out on seeing the actual Sylvanas get her comeuppance.

The story hasnt done anything to really earn Sylvanas' redemption. Her actions in BfA are horrendous, and with the added explanations given in Shadowlands they become beyond monstrous, far worse than close to any villain we have had before. So seeing the writers essentially cheat some sympathy onto Sylvanas just makes it feel like they slammed the handbrake on the story for a quick redemption the story really doesnt need.

The writers are simultaenously asking us to believe this is the Sylvanas we know from before, while also telling us the Sylvanas we see is not the same character at all.