Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Revamp Man]

I don't think players will like being squished back down to 50 and having to level to 60 every single expansion. It's a psychological thing, but it doesn't feel good.

They’ll give us up to 100 then squish again

They finally admitted that it doesn’t feel good to feel weaker at the beginning of an expansion

They actually did a decent job on the power gaps this time around so we probably won’t see a number squish next expansion either

[Sondrelk]

They’ll give us up to 100 then squish again

They finally admitted that it doesn’t feel good to feel weaker at the beginning of an expansion

They actually did a decent job on the power gaps this time around so we probably won’t see a number squish next expansion either

But what is the point if needing more levels to begin with? All it really does is dilute power gains on each level, and the only real benefit is that players can close their eyes and pretend like their level actually matters at endgame.

The current levelling works as well as one could expect.
1-10 for tutorial. 10-50 for acclimatizing the player. And 50-60 for easing players into current endgame.
Add 10 more levels and all you are really doing is either adding 10 levels to the middle section, which is pointless. Or making SL required levelling after the 10-50 stretch, which is even worse.

[Makorus]

But what is the point if needing more levels to begin with? All it really does is dilute power gains on each level, and the only real benefit is that players can close their eyes and pretend like their level actually matters at endgame.

The current levelling works as well as one could expect.
1-10 for tutorial. 10-50 for acclimatizing the player. And 50-60 for easing players into current endgame.
Add 10 more levels and all you are really doing is either adding 10 levels to the middle section, which is pointless. Or making SL required levelling after the 10-50 stretch, which is even worse.

Because squishing is more hassle than its worth, and I don't trust Blizzard to do a squish every single expansion considering there's always heaps of problems.

I would imagine it's easier if they just give 25% extra experience to the 10-50 quests to compensate them being turned to 10-60, and have the new expansion be 60-70.

At the end of the day, the only reason the level squish happened is because of all the ability culling, you would go 10-20 levels without anything, which obviously felt like shit.

[Sondrelk]

Because squishing is more hassle than its worth, and I don't trust Blizzard to do a squish every single expansion considering there's always heaps of problems.

I would imagine it's easier if they just give 25% extra experience to the 10-50 quests to compensate them being turned to 10-60, and have the new expansion be 60-70.

At the end of the day, the only reason the level squish happened is because of all the ability culling, you would go 10-20 levels without anything, which obviously felt like shit.

You say right there at the end why a level squish was down to begin with.
Why is it acceptable to push the dirty laundry into a giant pile instead of just getting into a good habit?

A level squish for every expansion works perfectly well, is easy to comprehend for returning players, doesn't lead to the same problems it was trying to avoid, and generally just works as a mechanic.

And as I said. The only real benefit I can see to not squishing is to have more levels, which as we all know is a meaningless metric anyways. You will still gain 10 levels in the new expansion, whether this is 50-60 or 60-70 is a completely arbitrary distinction.
Squishing at least makes it clear that 50-60 will always be endgame.

[Varodoc]

Why do you keep calling them Ren'dorei? The race is called Void Elf.

It is very simple actually.

"Ren'dorei" as a term means "Chidlren of the Void" in Thalassian; as such, it can refer to the biological Void elves, but also to the Blood and High elves scholars or to Locus-Walker (whom I consider part of the group). Therefore, by using that term instead of simply "Void elves", I am advocating for all to get more spotlight, not just the biological Void elves.

It's the same reason why people say "Oh I hope Forsaken get more developments" rather than "Oh I hope Undead Humans (the playable ones) get more developments", so that they include Forsaken who are NOT playable (and will likely never be...), like the Undead Elves. Which they will have more development btw, since Blizzard has been favouring the Forsaken, their pet race, since Classic.

So as you can see I never say things randomly, never. I always have key reasons backed by the source material for every word I say, which by the way I am not bragging about since I consider myself overall modest.

[Kokolums]

I would like to share my very own bit of head-canon. To be completely upfront and honest, these ideas are my own and created based on a few questions asked by the community.

What if:
1). Steve Danuser has said, many times, the words “wait and see.” When Blizzard announced the roadmap for the Warcraft universe, someone commented that they would like to be excited; however, they are worried because of how the Sepulcher (Shadowlands ending) concluded. His response was basically something along the lines of “Well, I say this because I can’t provide specificity without giving away potential spoilers. As for the ending of Shadowlands, it will have a conclusion (The Jailer cinematic was not it).”

Analysis:
1). Many think that the “Epilogue: Judgement” chapter of the 9.2 story has been omitted and put into a 9.2.5 patch. However, I don’t believe this. In an interview posted on Wowhead (I linked it yesterday), Danuser says that the chapter was purposely removed from the PTR not to spoil Sylvanas’ story and how the campaign ends in 9.2. He said that he was excited for players to see what happens. Now, the 7/8 chapter releases on LIVE next week, March 22, 2022. IF I am correct, the 8/8 chapter would release on March 29, 2022 (the following week since each week is a new chapter), to conclude the campaign and Sylvanas’ story. What else releases on March 29, 2022? The Sylvanas Book.

Yes, you may be asking “Well, if the 8/8 chapter releases on the 29th, why is it hidden from the achievements/campaign section of our quest journal?”

You would be correct; however, I think this is intentional to build HYPE/suspense for when it finally does go LIVE. Furthermore, depending on what is said in the Sylvanas book, there could be a connection with the 8/8 chapter.

To conclude my crazy head-canon, Danuser’s “wait and see” comments would make a lot more sense. Of course, I could be incredibly wrong; however, I strongly believe in my justification. Time will tell.

thats it! the name of 10.0 is World of Warcraft: Wait and See

[Lady Atia]

You say right there at the end why a level squish was down to begin with.
Why is it acceptable to push the dirty laundry into a giant pile instead of just getting into a good habit?

A level squish for every expansion works perfectly well, is easy to comprehend for returning players, doesn't lead to the same problems it was trying to avoid, and generally just works as a mechanic.

And as I said. The only real benefit I can see to not squishing is to have more levels, which as we all know is a meaningless metric anyways. You will still gain 10 levels in the new expansion, whether this is 50-60 or 60-70 is a completely arbitrary distinction.
Squishing at least makes it clear that 50-60 will always be endgame.

Because it just feels bad to always being leveled down at the end of an expansion? Same goes for the removing of borrowed power btw. It always leaves a sour taste to work for something knowing that you will loose it at the start of 10.0. They really have to move away from that and make WoW a RPG again where you grow exponential in power. An ilvl / dmg numbers squish is fine as these are basically just trimming of zeros but atleast last time the level squish fucked up tuning for legacy content.

[Makorus]

You say right there at the end why a level squish was down to begin with.
Why is it acceptable to push the dirty laundry into a giant pile instead of just getting into a good habit?

A level squish for every expansion works perfectly well, is easy to comprehend for returning players, doesn't lead to the same problems it was trying to avoid, and generally just works as a mechanic.

And as I said. The only real benefit I can see to not squishing is to have more levels, which as we all know is a meaningless metric anyways. You will still gain 10 levels in the new expansion, whether this is 50-60 or 60-70 is a completely arbitrary distinction.
Squishing at least makes it clear that 50-60 will always be endgame.

The problem with a level squish, or any squish for that matter, is that scaling is completely fucked every single time without fail, and I'd rather just have another 10 levels than not be able to do any content post Wrath again until they decide to fix it 6 months into the expansion.

[Dracullus]

The problem with a level squish, or any squish for that matter, is that scaling is completely fucked every single time without fail, and I'd rather just have another 10 levels than not be able to do any content post Wrath again until they decide to fix it 6 months into the expansion.

Was SL "completely fucked with fail" during pre-patch? Honestly, I don't remember problems similar to BfA, but I may be wrong. And during BfA TBC/Wrath was bad long time, not "content post Wrath". Starting Cata/MoP was sigh of relief, starting WoD was entering highway.

As for potential 10.0 squish, this time they don't have to squish everything, only 2 or 3 expansions:

1) Squish SL content to BfA current level (10-50)
2) Squish BfA to Legion level (10-45)
3) Enable legacy buff to Legion raids or squish Legion to WoD level (10-40) - point is, make Legion content one-shot for 60 characters

Rest expansions can be left untouched forever.

[huth]

You say right there at the end why a level squish was down to begin with.
Why is it acceptable to push the dirty laundry into a giant pile instead of just getting into a good habit?

Because there is no "good" habit. Each of them comes with a set of downsides.

[therumblings]

Soloing old dungeons and raids shouldn't even be a level squish issue, once an expansion is two expansions old then you should be able to solo it, not sure why they did what they did with Legion soloing.

[Super Dickmann]

The damage boost should apply to all pre-current expansion raids. That BFA raids still aren't consistently farmable without group is retarded.

[therumblings]

The damage boost should apply to all pre-current expansion raids. That BFA raids still aren't consistently farmable without group is retarded.

They didn't even want Legion raids to be soloable in SL until the later patches so it seems like they're making it take longer, not less. Sucks.

[Lady Atia]

The damage boost should apply to all pre-current expansion raids. That BFA raids still aren't consistently farmable without group is retarded.

I think it's ok to need a small group of lets say 5-10 people for raids from the last expansion. But you need like 20 people for N'Zoth Mythic rn, that's far too overtuned. Also Legion raids should be easily solo-able in ilvl 226, which Antorus Mythic isn't.

[Sondrelk]

The damage boost should apply to all pre-current expansion raids. That BFA raids still aren't consistently farmable without group is retarded.

Isn't that at least partially to do with all the damage buffs gained by Azerite, Essences, and Corrupted gear?
Last I checked the problem with farming the BfA raids is that you don't do that much more damage compared to previous expansions. And while I agree that is annoying it doesn't seem like a problem that occured because of the levelling squish, but rather the lack of noticeably power increases going from BfA to SL.

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I think it's ok to need a small group of lets say 5-10 people for raids from the last expansion. But you need like 20 people for N'Zoth Mythic rn, that's far too overtuned. Also Legion raids should be easily solo-able in ilvl 226, which Antorus Mythic isn't.

I just don't see why this is a problem because of levelling. Rather being a problem with SL being very conservative with large power increases, rather than the usual of making the player a good 10x stronger by the time they reach endgame.

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The problem with a level squish, or any squish for that matter, is that scaling is completely fucked every single time without fail, and I'd rather just have another 10 levels than not be able to do any content post Wrath again until they decide to fix it 6 months into the expansion.

Surely then the solution should be to fix scaling, rather than skirting around the issue until it becomes a problem again.
Surely a 100% damage buff for each deprecated expansion in succession is just as elegant as a 25% EXP increase to 10-60 levelling?

[Dracullus]

-2 expansion: soloable
-1 expansion: casual content for groups.

That should be model, I understand they maybe want to avoid artificial stuff like legacy buff, but it sucks that farming something was easier in 8.3 than 9.1 (haven't tried with new gear).

[Makorus]

Isn't that at least partially to do with all the damage buffs gained by Azerite, Essences, and Corrupted gear?
Last I checked the problem with farming the BfA raids is that you don't do that much more damage compared to previous expansions. And while I agree that is annoying it doesn't seem like a problem that occured because of the levelling squish, but rather the lack of noticeably power increases going from BfA to SL.

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I just don't see why this is a problem because of levelling. Rather being a problem with SL being very conservative with large power increases, rather than the usual of making the player a good 10x stronger by the time they reach endgame.

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Surely then the solution should be to fix scaling, rather than skirting around the issue until it becomes a problem again.
Surely a 100% damage buff for each deprecated expansion in succession is just as elegant as a 25% EXP increase to 10-60 levelling?

But you are trying to fix an issue that doesn't exist to begin with.

Damage squish happened because they had to.

SL Level Squish happened because it didn't feel satisfying to level because you went 10 levels at a time without gaining anything.

What would a level squish for the next expansion accomplish?

There's enough spells (and upgrades) between 50-60 where it doesn't feel unrewarding, and just because 70 is the new cap doesnt mean that 50-60 has to be Shadowlands only. It also helps with not making old content like guides etc. insanely confusing.

It's like wanting a damage squish to happen now because damage numbers could be 1k dps instead of 10k DPS. I mean, yeah, sure, but why?

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-2 expansion: soloable
-1 expansion: casual content for groups.

That should be model, I understand they maybe want to avoid artificial stuff like legacy buff, but it sucks that farming something was easier in 8.3 than 9.1 (haven't tried with new gear).

The problem with that is that it's not that simple anymore.

They actually have to put effort into making stuff soloable, because of certain mechanics. Eonar, for example, still is more annoying than it has to be to solo. Nzoth is gonna be unsoloable for a long long time because of mechanics. And it's just gonna get worse as time goes on and bosses get more complicated. And for some reason, they don't think it's worth their time to make that happen, even though a huge chunk of players is really into transmog farming.

[Sondrelk]

But you are trying to fix an issue that doesn't exist to begin with.

Damage squish happened because they had to.

SL Level Squish happened because it didn't feel satisfying to level because you went 10 levels at a time without gaining anything.

What would a level squish for the next expansion accomplish?

There's enough spells (and upgrades) between 50-60 where it doesn't feel unrewarding, and just because 70 is the new cap doesnt mean that 50-60 has to be Shadowlands only. It also helps with not making old content like guides etc. insanely confusing.

It's like wanting a damage squish to happen now because damage numbers could be 1k dps instead of 10k DPS. I mean, yeah, sure, but why?

10 levels is still 10 that would need to have something attached to them that they likely won't get though. It's certainly not 60 superfluous levels, but it's still something we shouldn't have.

The extra stuff added is certainly nice, and I am certainly not going to argue for ability bloat, but you are forgetting the part where classes get changed between each expansion no matter how perfect they seem.

Some abilities will get changed, some will get removed, and some will be added. So the argument that we can jusr add on what we have doesn't really work. You need to imagine that every ability will potentially be changed, and then that you want 10 extra levels on top that need to be filled with stuff, even though the 60 we have already have gaps in them where nothing significant happens.

[Velerios]

But you are trying to fix an issue that doesn't exist to begin with.

Damage squish happened because they had to.

SL Level Squish happened because it didn't feel satisfying to level because you went 10 levels at a time without gaining anything.

What would a level squish for the next expansion accomplish?

There's enough spells (and upgrades) between 50-60 where it doesn't feel unrewarding, and just because 70 is the new cap doesnt mean that 50-60 has to be Shadowlands only. It also helps with not making old content like guides etc. insanely confusing.

It's like wanting a damage squish to happen now because damage numbers could be 1k dps instead of 10k DPS. I mean, yeah, sure, but why?

WoW needed a damage Squish after MoP, because the numbers got out of control, and a big reason is that damage in wow is calculated in a 32bit signed integer number (not sure if this is still the case). So it's 2,147,483,647 damage and health that anyone could have; this number is ridiculous, but just see how high the damage end of MoP was; because of this, Garrosh had a phase where he healed himself to full health, because the damage would not allow a different mechanic.

So they had only 3 different ways to deal with it: either change the number to an 64 bit integer, but this does not change the issue, that calculating ridiculous high numbers does only makes things harder in the long run; also with this high health numbers people can't deal with; Megadamage where blizzard would cut out the last 6 numbers, but this would probably get ridiculous, since people would deal only a few megadamage (dealing 4-5 damage, maybe 20-22 later is simply a bad design) or simply do a stat squish, the best of the 3 options.

One other reason is that gear scales exponentially, and that always get ridiculous in the long run; it is neccessary because of gearing, but: i think that the curve needs to be toned down.

I personally doubt that we right now need either a stat squish nor a gearing squish or not making the next expansion people level to 70; the problem is that levels need to be impactful and meaningful and an upgrade, not a way to make people feel unhappy about it: for example when you can one shot an enemy at level 60 in the starting zone of the expansion, and when you go to 68, return there, you might deal with it or even get killed, because you became so weak. Shadowlands was a step in the right direction, but even if we get an expansion where we can decide again, blizzard could still improve on it.

Instead of making everything level with us, change it back to an older design, either you level like in shadowlands in a fixed way, but personally i'm not so fond of it, OR you could make it like in legion/BfA where you could decide where you want to start first, and then the enemys there get scaled in a progressive way, that means yes, you can outlevel them; your choice of order of the zones decide what level the enemys will have there. After reaching max level and finishing of the zones, you unlock your dailies (or crappy WQs) and everything gets leveled up to 70.

Seems to be quite off-topic, but this is actually and important issue: leveling needs to feel rewarding (you level up and feel stronger), but this is not the case right now: every time you level up, the enemys does too, and this is unrewarding, and frustrating; so instead of making it unrewarding, you actually get stronger and be able to defeat an enemy easier when you leveled up. And that's something blizzard urgently need to address; because leveling is the most important time in the game, especially after the expansion hit; and blizz really needs to pay more attention to it; not everyone want's to be max level as fast as possible.

And yes, i think that blizzard will simply change the leveling in the old zones from 1-50 to 1-60. And i really hope that blizzard might consider making raids a way to level up; just put a LFR-Version in the leveling-list and voila, a new way to level up. (and yes, torghast should also be a way to level up, but then we need gear from it)

[Valysar]

Yeah I don't understand Blizzard in terms of old content.

In Legion/BfA, I could solo VERY EASILY Hellfire Citadel in mythic, why in SL I can't solo VERY EASILY Antorus Mythic ?
(by very easily I mean taking no damage, and killing bosses in less than 10sec)