1. #29881
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Forget Stratholme. You know everything you need to in Arthas' first mission: He's immediately established as "I get to kill orcs? When I kill them everyone will know how great I am" And his character does not get any deeper after that point.
    "Here's an example of why you're wrong."

    "No. Forget that example. You know everything you need to from this example, which I will infer to mean whatever I want it to. You should infer that to mean the same thing."

  2. #29882
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    The culling is literally his turning point from lawful good to evil. The point of no return after which he is no longer a Paladin, ripped straight from the D&D handbook.
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    "Here's an example of why you're wrong."

    "No. Forget that example. You know everything you need to from this example, which I will infer to mean whatever I want it to. You should infer that to mean the same thing."
    You're both dealing with someone who jumped straight to identify politics. It's a lost cause. To

    Also Bolvar is boring BECAUSE they rode Sylvanas' ass so Le Conceptuel's pivot to her made sense.

  3. #29883
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    Stratholme wasn't one-dimensional. What he did was still wrong but containing the problem, separating the healthy from unhealthy, isn't simple. Esp. a fast acting plague.
    I'd say that people are probably wrong to look at it as something which couldn't be avoided, which only makes it even better in my opinion—it shows how good intentions will condemn you if you follow them the wrong way, and how your first approach may not always be the best. Given Stratholme's layout, isolation was possible, but Arthas could only do what he did in a moment of desperation.

    It was a mix, in my mind, of both sincerity and hubris, and that makes it a very good moment—combination is one of the hallmarks of good writing, I think, and that combination of those two motives made it all the better to see Arthas as the person he was and precisely why he was corruptible.

    I think that, unfortunately, people's perspective on the character is somewhat warped by his WotLK portrayal, which is one-dimensional everywhere but his death scene. His behavior is pretty consistently generic evil overlord gloating until that point. I think Arthas would be more fondly acknowledged by younger players (I say this, likely younger than most young players but as someone who ardently played Warcraft III in his childhood) if he were more akin to his original portrayal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Also Bolvar is boring BECAUSE they rode Sylvanas' ass so Le Conceptuel's pivot to her made sense.
    This is where I lose all respect from anyone, but I honestly think it would've been very cool and interesting if Bolvar remained the Lich King through the whole expansion and our foray into the Shadowlands was at his behest. It would be interesting to add the element of an allied Villain Protagonist we aren't wholly sure we can trust, and Legion!Bolvar is the best portrayal in WoW of any Lich King, I think.

  4. #29884
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    "Here's an example of why you're wrong."

    "No. Forget that example. You know everything you need to from this example, which I will infer to mean whatever I want it to. You should infer that to mean the same thing."
    You're arguing Stratholme is an example of his good qualities?

  5. #29885
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    You're arguing Stratholme is an example of his good qualities?
    It's an interesting and not one dimensional character beat, ffs.

    Character quality has nothing to do with how likeable a character is.

  6. #29886
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    You're arguing Stratholme is an example of his good qualities?
    It's an example of multidimensional qualities. It would be single-dimensional if it weren't for the combination of hubris and sincerity. If he went in sobbing all the while and apologizing to every dead peasant (assuming that non-hubristic Arthas could even make the decision to purge Stratholme) it would be one-dimensional, as would it be one-dimensional if he, say, decided to destroy Stratholme after an hour-long debate in which every option had been laid out and rejected by him despite being feasible.

    Making a bad decision on the fly with good reasoning is multi-dimensional.

  7. #29887
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    It's an interesting and not one dimensional character beat, ffs.

    Character quality has nothing to do with how likeable a character is.
    An established dickbag making a dickbag decision is still a flat character. It's a one-dimensional beat. No change in character happened.

  8. #29888
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    An established dickbag making a dickbag decision is still a flat character. It's a one-dimensional beat. No change in character happened.
    But was it under the circumstance where it was explicitly to be a dick with the intent of being a dick?

    I mean. I know the answer, but do you?

  9. #29889
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    A problem of adding more elves in the game or giving then spotlight are things like this, the fanabase just can't get a break, they keep wanting more and more until the story/game is ruined.
    Honestly, I'd say the only Elves I like the portrayal of thus far are the Horde ones. The Void Elves could've been very interesting to me if they went the Abd-Al Hazred approach instead of making them completely surmount the whole "whispers" shtick. I do have to admit the image I have in my head of an emaciated, slightly paler High Elf with dark circles under its eyes and a twitchy, bipolar personality is far more interesting than the Void Elves we got in canon.

    I think that the idea of a Lovecraft-inspired race could've been very cool, they just executed it the wrong way.

    I would also come to the defense of one of the Elven races in particular—I honestly think that the Blood Elves have a pretty good arc. It's a little haphazard and spotty, but the actual storyline itself is conceptually very good, and the execution isn't the worst.

  10. #29890
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    But was it under the circumstance where it was explicitly to be a dick with the intent of being a dick?

    I mean. I know the answer, but do you?
    He did it because he felt it would show his father he was ready to be king. Not out of genuine care of any of those citizens. In other words, a total dickbag move. The Arthas book backs this up.

  11. #29891
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    He did it because he felt it would show his father he was ready to be king. Not out of genuine care of any of those citizens. In other words, a total dickbag move. The Arthas book backs this up.
    Isn't part of giving off the impression of readiness driven by the intent of some form of duty in the first place? Either way, taking the least charitable interpretation of those facts presented as possible just means that you're already trying to invalidate the fallen hero archetype in the first place and it's via an identity politics driven axe to grind. This is a dead end.

  12. #29892
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Isn't part of giving off the impression of readiness driven by the intent of some form of duty in the first place?
    No. It's typically driven by pride or greed (i.e. wanting to be seen as better).

    Duty would lead to wanting to be ready, not wanting to be seen as ready.

  13. #29893
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No. It's typically driven by pride or greed (i.e. wanting to be seen as better).

    Duty would lead to wanting to be ready, not wanting to be seen as ready.
    Which is fair. I'd argue they need not be mutually exclusive. "I'm ready but FATHER and UTHER don't believe me. I'll show them." But I don't think looking at it purely as one dimensional and purely negative is the intent of the character when it's generally viewed through the lens of a tragic character archetype. He's not played as, like, a bland asshole like Garithos with no redeemable qualities. Ersula has an axe to grind. It's just not indicative of anything valid.

  14. #29894
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Which is fair. I'd argue they need not be mutually exclusive. "I'm ready but FATHER and UTHER don't believe me. I'll show them."
    You realise that sentence is essentially "I, and i alone, know best!"

    It shows the opposite of what you claim.

  15. #29895
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You realise that sentence is essentially "I, and i alone, know best!"

    It shows the opposite of what you claim.
    Pride is, in fact, a common character flaw without active intended malice. This works if you want to interpret it in the most negative manner possible. So are you on board with the idea that Arthas is an overrated and one dimensional character, or are you just being obtuse?

    We've also frankly come a long way from you whinging at me in the past for inserting a response to you in a conversation I wasn't involved in when you're doing the same thing now.

  16. #29896
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Pride is, in fact, a common character flaw without active intended malice. This works if you want to interpret it in the most negative manner possible. So are you on board with the idea that Arthas is an overrated and one dimensional character, or are you just being obtuse?

    We've also frankly come a long way from you whinging at me in the past for inserting a response to you in a conversation I wasn't involved in when you're doing the same thing now.
    I think you're mistaking me for somebody else there. Or you misunderstood the context.

    Not sure what malice has to do with any of this, either. Arthas was not, initially, actively malicious. He very much was a rash prideful jerk, however.

  17. #29897
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I think you're mistaking me for somebody else there. Or you misunderstood the context.
    Nah. It was you. Any interjection by me was met with "knock it off : (((((" but now it's fine I guess.

    Arthas was not, initially, actively malicious. He very much was a rash prideful jerk, however.
    No argument there. Contextually, this sprung from the assertion that Arthas was a one dimensional and overrated character. That's my sole beef. It's a lot of bullshit driven by overcompensating for wanting to prop up another character and having an idpol bent.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2022-03-20 at 03:23 AM.

  18. #29898
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Nah. It was you. Any interjection by me was met with "knock it off : (((((" but now it's fine I guess.
    No, that definitely wasn't me then.

  19. #29899
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Honestly, I'd say the only Elves I like the portrayal of thus far are the Horde ones. The Void Elves could've been very interesting to me if they went the Abd-Al Hazred approach instead of making them completely surmount the whole "whispers" shtick. I do have to admit the image I have in my head of an emaciated, slightly paler High Elf with dark circles under its eyes and a twitchy, bipolar personality is far more interesting than the Void Elves we got in canon.

    I think that the idea of a Lovecraft-inspired race could've been very cool, they just executed it the wrong way.

    I would also come to the defense of one of the Elven races in particular—I honestly think that the Blood Elves have a pretty good arc. It's a little haphazard and spotty, but the actual storyline itself is conceptually very good, and the execution isn't the worst.
    the biggest problem is not the elves themselves is their public and fanbase, the moment there is elves in the screen they start gathering and demanding shit, so blizz start pandering then more and more, until things are ruined.

    Blood elves had a solid and unique interpretation from the frozen throne, but as the time progress they became the generic elven race.

    night elves, also, had a solid and unique display, combining things like dark and wood elves, but as time progress, they became another generic elven race. Both changes happened because the playerbase wanted a different approach, something closer to Lotr.

    Then the tiring endless beg for high elves, now void elves, and it keeps going, you can't see a section in this forum without an elf thread complaining or demanding something. At this point we just need a break of elves all together, damn sylvanas and the others for a while.

  20. #29900
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gifdwarf View Post
    in 6 years 30 more levels will be added, I'd rather not shit on the work they did by taking 5 levels to get one spell again.
    I don't think players will like being squished back down to 50 and having to level to 60 every single expansion. It's a psychological thing, but it doesn't feel good.

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