Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Ersula]

"Here's an example of why you're wrong."

"No. Forget that example. You know everything you need to from this example, which I will infer to mean whatever I want it to. You should infer that to mean the same thing."

You're arguing Stratholme is an example of his good qualities?

[Vakir]

You're arguing Stratholme is an example of his good qualities?

It's an interesting and not one dimensional character beat, ffs.

Character quality has nothing to do with how likeable a character is.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

You're arguing Stratholme is an example of his good qualities?

It's an example of multidimensional qualities. It would be single-dimensional if it weren't for the combination of hubris and sincerity. If he went in sobbing all the while and apologizing to every dead peasant (assuming that non-hubristic Arthas could even make the decision to purge Stratholme) it would be one-dimensional, as would it be one-dimensional if he, say, decided to destroy Stratholme after an hour-long debate in which every option had been laid out and rejected by him despite being feasible.

Making a bad decision on the fly with good reasoning is multi-dimensional.

[Ersula]

It's an interesting and not one dimensional character beat, ffs.

Character quality has nothing to do with how likeable a character is.

An established dickbag making a dickbag decision is still a flat character. It's a one-dimensional beat. No change in character happened.

[Vakir]

An established dickbag making a dickbag decision is still a flat character. It's a one-dimensional beat. No change in character happened.

But was it under the circumstance where it was explicitly to be a dick with the intent of being a dick?

I mean. I know the answer, but do you?

[AOL Instant Messenger]

A problem of adding more elves in the game or giving then spotlight are things like this, the fanabase just can't get a break, they keep wanting more and more until the story/game is ruined.

Honestly, I'd say the only Elves I like the portrayal of thus far are the Horde ones. The Void Elves could've been very interesting to me if they went the Abd-Al Hazred approach instead of making them completely surmount the whole "whispers" shtick. I do have to admit the image I have in my head of an emaciated, slightly paler High Elf with dark circles under its eyes and a twitchy, bipolar personality is far more interesting than the Void Elves we got in canon.

I think that the idea of a Lovecraft-inspired race could've been very cool, they just executed it the wrong way.

I would also come to the defense of one of the Elven races in particular—I honestly think that the Blood Elves have a pretty good arc. It's a little haphazard and spotty, but the actual storyline itself is conceptually very good, and the execution isn't the worst.

[Ersula]

But was it under the circumstance where it was explicitly to be a dick with the intent of being a dick?

I mean. I know the answer, but do you?

He did it because he felt it would show his father he was ready to be king. Not out of genuine care of any of those citizens. In other words, a total dickbag move. The Arthas book backs this up.

[Vakir]

He did it because he felt it would show his father he was ready to be king. Not out of genuine care of any of those citizens. In other words, a total dickbag move. The Arthas book backs this up.

Isn't part of giving off the impression of readiness driven by the intent of some form of duty in the first place? Either way, taking the least charitable interpretation of those facts presented as possible just means that you're already trying to invalidate the fallen hero archetype in the first place and it's via an identity politics driven axe to grind. This is a dead end.

[huth]

Isn't part of giving off the impression of readiness driven by the intent of some form of duty in the first place?

No. It's typically driven by pride or greed (i.e. wanting to be seen as better).

Duty would lead to wanting to be ready, not wanting to be seen as ready.

[Vakir]

No. It's typically driven by pride or greed (i.e. wanting to be seen as better).

Duty would lead to wanting to be ready, not wanting to be seen as ready.

Which is fair. I'd argue they need not be mutually exclusive. "I'm ready but FATHER and UTHER don't believe me. I'll show them." But I don't think looking at it purely as one dimensional and purely negative is the intent of the character when it's generally viewed through the lens of a tragic character archetype. He's not played as, like, a bland asshole like Garithos with no redeemable qualities. Ersula has an axe to grind. It's just not indicative of anything valid.

[huth]

Which is fair. I'd argue they need not be mutually exclusive. "I'm ready but FATHER and UTHER don't believe me. I'll show them."

You realise that sentence is essentially "I, and i alone, know best!"

It shows the opposite of what you claim.

[Vakir]

You realise that sentence is essentially "I, and i alone, know best!"

It shows the opposite of what you claim.

Pride is, in fact, a common character flaw without active intended malice. This works if you want to interpret it in the most negative manner possible. So are you on board with the idea that Arthas is an overrated and one dimensional character, or are you just being obtuse?

We've also frankly come a long way from you whinging at me in the past for inserting a response to you in a conversation I wasn't involved in when you're doing the same thing now.

[huth]

Pride is, in fact, a common character flaw without active intended malice. This works if you want to interpret it in the most negative manner possible. So are you on board with the idea that Arthas is an overrated and one dimensional character, or are you just being obtuse?

We've also frankly come a long way from you whinging at me in the past for inserting a response to you in a conversation I wasn't involved in when you're doing the same thing now.

I think you're mistaking me for somebody else there. Or you misunderstood the context.

Not sure what malice has to do with any of this, either. Arthas was not, initially, actively malicious. He very much was a rash prideful jerk, however.

[Vakir]

I think you're mistaking me for somebody else there. Or you misunderstood the context.

Nah. It was you. Any interjection by me was met with "knock it off : (((((" but now it's fine I guess.

Arthas was not, initially, actively malicious. He very much was a rash prideful jerk, however.

No argument there. Contextually, this sprung from the assertion that Arthas was a one dimensional and overrated character. That's my sole beef. It's a lot of bullshit driven by overcompensating for wanting to prop up another character and having an idpol bent.

[huth]

Nah. It was you. Any interjection by me was met with "knock it off : (((((" but now it's fine I guess.

No, that definitely wasn't me then.

[Syegfryed]

Honestly, I'd say the only Elves I like the portrayal of thus far are the Horde ones. The Void Elves could've been very interesting to me if they went the Abd-Al Hazred approach instead of making them completely surmount the whole "whispers" shtick. I do have to admit the image I have in my head of an emaciated, slightly paler High Elf with dark circles under its eyes and a twitchy, bipolar personality is far more interesting than the Void Elves we got in canon.

I think that the idea of a Lovecraft-inspired race could've been very cool, they just executed it the wrong way.

I would also come to the defense of one of the Elven races in particular—I honestly think that the Blood Elves have a pretty good arc. It's a little haphazard and spotty, but the actual storyline itself is conceptually very good, and the execution isn't the worst.

the biggest problem is not the elves themselves is their public and fanbase, the moment there is elves in the screen they start gathering and demanding shit, so blizz start pandering then more and more, until things are ruined.

Blood elves had a solid and unique interpretation from the frozen throne, but as the time progress they became the generic elven race.

night elves, also, had a solid and unique display, combining things like dark and wood elves, but as time progress, they became another generic elven race. Both changes happened because the playerbase wanted a different approach, something closer to Lotr.

Then the tiring endless beg for high elves, now void elves, and it keeps going, you can't see a section in this forum without an elf thread complaining or demanding something. At this point we just need a break of elves all together, damn sylvanas and the others for a while.

[Chickat]

in 6 years 30 more levels will be added, I'd rather not shit on the work they did by taking 5 levels to get one spell again.

I don't think players will like being squished back down to 50 and having to level to 60 every single expansion. It's a psychological thing, but it doesn't feel good.

[ExiHext]

I don't think players will like being squished back down to 50 and having to level to 60 every single expansion. It's a psychological thing, but it doesn't feel good.

I'd have zero problems with that. I'd have more problems if 12 classes would be merged to 8 or if the whole leveling path would be forced on a single continent (that is heavily alliance focused) with other continents being made obsolete.

[Super Dickmann]

I would also come to the defense of one of the Elven races in particular—I honestly think that the Blood Elves have a pretty good arc. It's a little haphazard and spotty, but the actual storyline itself is conceptually very good, and the execution isn't the worst.

The Blood Elves were good prior to the end of TBC and their arc 'makes sense' on the most basic level. An ancient race who's traditions have worked for them for thousands of years reverting to their standard way of life the second the crisis that defined them is ended makes more sense than them still running a police state and using every kind of unethical magic out there to support their addiction. But without these elements they're just generic fantasy in elves that consume an inordinate amount of screentime.

As for the Arthas discussion, the idea that Shadowlands disrespected Arthas while spending the better part of Uther's entire arc to explain how Uther condemning him to hell, and even being all that upset that Arthas killed him and everyone he loved was wrong, is one of the most retarded strains of argument the expansion has spawned.

[jzhbee]

I don't know, I kinda disagree as she admits herself she became a monster.

She admitted she was somewhat similar to Arthas in the Silverpine questline directly after his death. Although you could assume she was playing up the snark for Garrosh;
"What difference is there between you and the Lich King?"
"Isn't it obvious? I serve the Horde."