Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Depends.

Would you say Deepholm was good enough?

It couldn't carry an expansion, but that also isn't the only thing you can do underground. There's far more in the way of zones than "empty cave".

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A continental version of the Motherload with a touch of Dalaran sewers and Bilgewater in the mix? Yeah, that'd be annoying within a week. Then again, I have to be fair. It would go along with Blizzard's political tendencies to use Undermine to expose the dangers of unchecked capitalism, pollution, greed and whatever else.

Why would a large, highly exploitative corporation focus on that if they just got done with an expansion in the wake of sexual harassment lawsuits where the primary, underlying message is "victims should not seek justice"?

[Varx]

That a lot of arrogance for someone who kept saying that tinkers were coming "next expansion" for the last few expansions. Even Teriz shut up for a while when they announced Demon Hunters despite his assurance that they would never be added.

I never said tinkers we're coming with 100% certainty before SL. Who are you talking about...

If anything I was sure we would have gotten DRs in SL or even necros, as redundant as they are to DKs.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

Lately I've been imagining a Green-Flight/Emerald Dream zone that would be like a Wailing Caverns/Maraudon on the scale of Deepholm. Huge open ceilings with glittering life magics, glowmosses and such.

Since Val'sharah is a near mirror of the Dream in terms of overworld forest, a subterranean paradise like that could be really neat to explore next. Thinking like the druid's Barrow Dens even, in terms of lore/theme- not the cramped tunnels lol

[Kiria]

A large underground goblin metropolis is boring to you? There's so much you can do with that. Imagine a large section that's an aquatic dome, streets winding around the city.

Like there is so much you can do...

Christ no wonder you constantly denounce tinkers.

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Wait until they see it in-game, they eat their words.

Yes boring I don't find anything gnome or gobbo related interesting at all and I won't eat my words because I simply won't buy into it..

Give me more elven architecture and lore and I'll eat that up.

[Grimbold21]

It couldn't carry an expansion, but that also isn't the only thing you can do underground. There's far more in the way of zones than "empty cave".

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Why would a large, highly exploitative corporation focus on that if they just got done with an expansion in the wake of sexual harassment lawsuits where the primary, underlying message is "victims should not seek justice"?

For the same reason that any other exploitative corporation does it. To score points and perpetuate the unspoken agreement that the vast majority of consumers abide by, that is to say, the consumers know the company is hypocritical but can't help but to continue to consume its products.

As for the matter of "underground", I reserve a healthy dose of skepticism regarding player reception of such type of content. I'd personally expect it to be received somewhat close to the level that an underwater zone would be.

Then again, personally speaking, if you gave me an expansion with a heavy dwarven theme, i'd be all up for it. Litter the continent with Ironforges and Grim Batols and I'm down.

[Varx]

Yes boring I don't find anything gnome or gobbo related interesting at all and I won't eat my words because I simply won't buy into it..

Give me more elven architecture and lore and I'll eat that up.

Okay so news flash, your own dull interests shouldn't blind you to what is actually being set up... Like it's clear you don't like tinkers or techy stuff, doesn't mean it ain't happening.

I have no desire to main tinker, but I don't let me personal wants keep me from seeing what's obvious as shit.

[Grimbold21]

For Undermine I was more thinking along the lines of Shipwreck Cove.

Yes, a mixture of Freehold with Deadmines

[therewillbedragons]

I skipped some pages so many have missed something, but EoA predicting the winter's veil sleigh mount seems like the sort of insane hyper-specific stuff that we see from the real leaks. Not to mention a few other more normal predictions (Khadgar, no world revamp but some new assets added to main cities in prep) that have now been seen to exist with the PTR update. I thought my fake leak got lucky. If that one isn't real then the leaker needs to buy a lotto ticket.

[Alanar]

For Undermine I was more thinking along the lines of Shipwreck Cove.

Ye I could see that.

It would be even cooler if this is inside the big vulcano.
Huge underground bay, different cartel, always a battle for the best trade prince, rivals etc. Sounds like a goblin place.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

As for the matter of "underground", I reserve a healthy dose of skepticism regarding player reception of such type of content. I'd personally expect it to be received somewhat close to the level that an underwater zone would be.

Then again, personally speaking, if you gave me an expansion with a heavy dwarven theme, i'd be all up for it. Litter the continent with Ironforges and Grim Batols and I'm down.

I'd say that you're likely thinking too much of caves and not enough of real-life underground environments like one of those forest-caverns in the Amazon—it would functionally just be a dark forest zone like Drustvar, albeit with no visible sky when you look up and bigger spiders. I could see a very interesting zone out of that—a sprawling, dark underground forest like an evil version of Sholazar Basin covered in webs. I also always envisioned a second underground forest beneath the Grizzly Hills full of mutated creatures and with Emerald Nightmare-based aesthetics. A frozen cavern alone could help to provide variety, akin to Naz'Anak in WotLK. Those are two-and-a-half examples of zones that I think could be very good if they had some variety.

I think that what is being ignored here is a great deal of zone variety that could be done to keep it lively. I understand what you mean, of course—too much in the way of dark, gloomy zones would be rather grating, and I could see it feeling claustrophobic if the roof is too low, so I'm not wholly refusing your premise, but I do think that all it would take it a very well-handled development. I've made a few expansion concept maps from time-to-time, and I've done a couple of Azjol-Nerub-style maps—some as actual cavern systems, others as caldera-esque expanses like Deepholm. I think the issue of the gloom becoming banal could also be solved, such as with a Naz'Anak zone that's bright and colorful due to the ice walls and bioluminescent life, leaving claustrophobia and the hidden sky as the only things that may come off as alienating or oppressive. Admittedly, it is hard to come up with good concepts to deal with that, as even a very high ceiling could still cause those problems.

For the same reason that any other exploitative corporation does it. To score points and perpetuate the unspoken agreement that the vast majority of consumers abide by, that is to say, the consumers know the company is hypocritical but can't help but to continue to consume its products.

Honestly, I don't think Blizzard's been prone to this. Aside from the occasional comment of Golden's or brief virtue signal, I think they've been pretty consistently apolitical in the overall scope of the writing, so I don't think they'd devote an expansion too heavily to it, especially since corporations only usually do cultural policy instead of getting involved in matters of class exploitation.

[Grimbold21]

I'd say that you're likely thinking too much of caves and not enough of real-life underground environments like one of those forest-caverns in the Amazon—it would functionally just be a dark forest zone like Drustvar, albeit with no visible sky when you look up and bigger spiders. I could see a very interesting zone out of that—a sprawling, dark underground forest like an evil version of Sholazar Basin covered in webs. I also always envisioned a second underground forest beneath the Grizzly Hills full of mutated creatures and with Emerald Nightmare-based aesthetics. A frozen cavern alone could help to provide variety, akin to Naz'Anak in WotLK. Those are two-and-a-half examples of zones that I think could be very good if they had some variety.

I think that what is being ignored here is a great deal of zone variety that could be done to keep it lively. I understand what you mean, of course—too much in the way of dark, gloomy zones would be rather grating, and I could see it feeling claustrophobic if the roof is too low, so I'm not wholly refusing your premise, but I do think that all it would take it a very well-handled development. I've made a few expansion concept maps from time-to-time, and I've done a couple of Azjol-Nerub-style maps—some as actual cavern systems, others as caldera-esque expanses like Deepholm. I think the issue of the gloom becoming banal could also be solved, such as with a Naz'Anak zone that's bright and colorful due to the ice walls and bioluminescent life, leaving claustrophobia and the hidden sky as the only things that may come off as alienating or oppressive. Admittedly, it is hard to come up with good concepts to deal with that, as even a very high ceiling could still cause those problems.

Those are all fine but they don't fit a Undermine xpac. And please, let us not fool ourselves into arguing such pristines zones could exist away from the major Goblin hubs.

They're goblins.

[shoc]

I would really love to see a Hollow Azeroth, both Undermine and Azjol Nerub, could open into this realm from above.

[Khaza-R]

If Undermine give us a Kobolds and Catacombs, old-school RPG style expansion then I am completely and 100% for it.

[Kiivar86]

I skipped some pages so many have missed something, but EoA predicting the winter's veil sleigh mount seems like the sort of insane hyper-specific stuff that we see from the real leaks. Not to mention a few other more normal predictions (Khadgar, no world revamp but some new assets added to main cities in prep) that have now been seen to exist with the PTR update. I thought my fake leak got lucky. If that one isn't real then the leaker needs to buy a lotto ticket.

It predicted a reindeer mount, not a sleigh. While reindeer certainly are tied (literally, heh) to a sleigh, the "leak" said nothing of a sleigh. Just reindeer. As if you rode the reindeer itself.

And it isn't that hard a thing to guess at anyway. Updating a holiday to add a mount...I mean, they already did that once for Winter Veil as is.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Those are all fine but they don't fit a Undermine xpac. And please, let us not fool ourselves into arguing such pristines zones could exist away from the major Goblin hubs.

They're goblins.

Yeah, I was just going at your suggestion about a Nerubian expansion. I agree about an Undermine expansion. Don't get me wrong—I love Goblins. Everybody loves Goblins. I've never met anyone who was annoyed by Goblins in WoW. The idea of a Goblin-centric zone sounds very fun and interesting, but a whole expansion would get grating fast, especially since Goblins aren't very good at taking things seriously, save perhaps for some Old God screwery driving a few a little bit goofy.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Not to turn this into an Undermine thread... but executed properly an Undermine zone or even continent could prove absolutely brilliant and still very diverse, especially if mixed up with other tropical islands such as Plunder Isle and Tel'Abim OR with other underground zones. I think it should not be dismissed as expansion material and be considered boring as so very little exists about it which means the art team could go super creative. If you take the Broken Isles for example, I wasn't excited ONE BIT about that, and I ended up loving it and Suramar is still one of my favourite zones to this day. Wait and see I guess! But it's true that Undermine is one of the last untouched bits of lore from the older days, along with Tel'Abim, Plunder Isle and the whole Nerubian Kingdom. If I'm forgetting one feel free to add it!

[The Stormbringer]

People saying Undermine "can't be an expansion" because "it would all just be underground and one aesthetic" are hilarious to me. Remember Northrend? Back before Wrath was launched, people said there was NO WAY that Northrend alone could be an expansion. "It's all just ice and snow! Blizzard would never make an expansion that's all just one thing!"

And then Northrend had more areas and more biomes than just "snowy" or "icy". Y'all need to have some god damn imagination, I swear.

[Grimbold21]

Yeah, I was just going at your suggestion about a Nerubian expansion. I agree about an Undermine expansion. Don't get me wrong—I love Goblins. Everybody loves Goblins. I've never met anyone who was annoyed by Goblins in WoW. The idea of a Goblin-centric zone sounds very fun and interesting, but a whole expansion would get grating fast, especially since Goblins aren't very good at taking things seriously, save perhaps for some Old God screwery driving a few a little bit goofy.

No problem with goblins. It's the alliance counterpart that I despise. Well, to be fair, I don't much enjoy the gloomy industrial revolution like setting of the Goblins.

[shoc]

Not to turn this into an Undermine thread... but executed properly an Undermine zone or even continent could prove absolutely brilliant and still very diverse, especially if mixed up with other tropical islands such as Plunder Isle and Tel'Abim OR with other underground zones. I think it should not be dismissed as expansion material and be considered boring as so very little exists about it which means the art team could go super creative. If you take the Broken Isles for example, I wasn't excited ONE BIT about that, and I ended up loving it and Suramar is still one of my favourite zones to this day. Wait and see I guess! But it's true that Undermine is one of the last untouched bits of lore from the older days, along with Tel'Abim, Plunder Isle and the whole Nerubian Kingdom. If I'm forgetting one feel free to add it!

Undermine + Nerubians + Titanic Earthen Civilization + Furbolg Barrow Dens = an Underground expansion that has it all.

[therumblings]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...pdates/1206968

Something new got posted but the link doesn't work, I doubt it's anything that important though.