Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Fahrad Wagner]

I do think that, played semi-seriously and with enough creativity, that would actually make for a very fun setting for a few zones. The Iron Horde did it fine, and I did like the industrial elements of Draenor a bit. I do think it's one that Blizzard hasn't explored too significantly, which makes it an interesting start.

Gloomy industrial for the goblins, steampunk for the gnomes, and that could build up to something very pleasant aesthetically! I'm a bit biased as I really like the Steampunk aesthetic, but done right (hi Arcane) it could be very nice.

[therumblings]

I suppose that's pretty reasonable. "Not enough content" has never been a problem for Blizzard—if they want to add more, they can add more. They even supersized Kul Tiras, which was previously a tiny island contained in the Baradin Strand before they expanded it into a Greenland-sized landmass off the coast of the Eastern Kingdoms.

Yeah it's obvious Blizzard doesn't care about the actual size of the landmasses since none of it is lore accurate anyway. Pretty much every continent is 100x bigger in lore, probably even Kul Tiras too.

[Grimbold21]

I do think that, played semi-seriously and with enough creativity, that would actually make for a very fun setting for a few zones. The Iron Horde did it fine, and I did like the industrial elements of Draenor a bit. I do think it's one that Blizzard hasn't explored too significantly, which makes it an interesting start.

So basically... take the Gilneans aesthetic and add the industrial part and you have Victorian England. It's a sort of gloomy, excessively dirty look I don't much enjoy.

[therumblings]

It would be cool to see Undermine get a new zone every patch that goes another layer deeper underground, instead of a new island or something every patch.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I suppose that's pretty reasonable. "Not enough content" has never been a problem for Blizzard—if they want to add more, they can add more. They even supersized Kul Tiras, which was previously a tiny island contained in the Baradin Strand before they expanded it into a Greenland-sized landmass off the coast of the Eastern Kingdoms.

Regarding Kul Tiras and Zandalar though, I still think it's more a question of scale: lorewise they're much smaller than what appears on the game's map? Or more correctly, EK and Kalimdor are much more vast and expanded as what we have in game? I don't know if this was retconned or not, but to me, lorewise KT and Zandalar are still much smaller than what we have on the world map.



Using this as a reference!

So yeah, it's pretty much a question of in-game scale too, Zandalar being a perfect example of that.

[Iain]

If Undermine give us a Kobolds and Catacombs, old-school RPG style expansion then I am completely and 100% for it.

Just anything that brings us back to the mundane and intimate Azeroth where little critters and bandits are stealing cabbages. It would be such a fresh break from this celestial corner Blizzard painted themselves in and keep doubling down on.

It feels just like Hearthstone is taunting WoW players, "See? This is what that game you can't let go off could be like!"

[therumblings]

Regarding Kul Tiras and Zandalar though, I still think it's more a question of scale: lorewise they're much smaller than what appears on the game's map? Or more correctly, EK and Kalimdor are much more vast and expanded as what we have in game? I don't know if this was retconned or not, but to me, lorewise KT and Zandalar are still much smaller than what we have on the world map.



Using this as a reference!

So yeah, it's pretty much a question of in-game scale too, Zandalar being a perfect example of that.

Basically nothing in game is to scale, except for stuff like character height lol. I'd imagine Lorewise Kul Tiras alone is the size of the entire game world combined, as the entire planet is supposed to be pretty big and the reason in game scale is so small is because of limitations of the game. It also explains why some continents are huge and others are tiny, they just create content while the actual size is mostly irrelevant except for the map, which I suggest they should switch to a chronicle style map, since it would be more accurate and not really change much.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I think Goblins could be serious, even if they just pulled a Mechagon 2 but with Goblins I'd honestly be fine with it. With Goblins and Gnomes you'd basically have to push their silliness far enough to reach into badass territory for them to be taken seriously I think. Mechagnomes didn't land for me, but they aren't horrible. I think a Goblin continent could be badass and change the general view on them.

That's a good enough point—I do think that the aesthetic at least has been going in a more serious direction, especially with the MOTHERLODE!!! dungeon, and I could figure there's room for a Gaia's Lament-style plot where the Goblins do something horrible to the environment. We've seen our little Gobbos can actually get surprisingly disturbing and legitimately villainous in Highmountain, and that could become a trend going forward. The Blackfuse Company was also played pretty much 100% seriously, and Blackfuse himself acted pretty level by Goblin standards. I'd say a bit of silliness is necessary, of course, since it's still Goblins, but there's plenty of room for Goblins to be serious and possibly even quite depraved.

I think for Goblins, their depravity and greed are major traits you could play up with a serious antagonist—we've seen the lengths they're willing to go to, and I wouldn't put it beyond them to resume mining Azeroth's blood like they did back in the day—if they went too deep, it could cause some serious harm. This does give us a pretty immediate hook into Goblinland.

I don't know if I'd want a whole expansion, but I'm all for a whole Goblin zone—maybe a dedicated patch, or even full story arc.

[shoc]

I honestly think that would have too much variety, and possibly too little aesthetic variety if done wrong, so I would honestly prefer if they just focused on Nerubians instead since it gives us the most of an underground expansion without any hurdles and with plenty of unexplored, interesting lore. One thing I'd like to do is delve into the root of the Emerald Nightmare by exploring the roots of Vordrassil.

4-5 aesthetics is typical for an expansion. Everything being a variation of Nerubian Kingdom would be too much too.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

So basically... take the Gilneans aesthetic and add the industrial part and you have Victorian England. It's a sort of gloomy, excessively dirty look I don't much enjoy.

Fair enough. Different strokes and whathaveyou—I could definitely see why it would be a bit alienating to go from our real-life, hyper-industrialized world where the rich exploit the poor and the environment is being fucked to a hyper-industrialized world where the rich exploit the poor and the environment is being fucked ... but with pointy-eared green people!

[Fahrad Wagner]

Basically nothing in game is to scale, except for stuff like character height lol. I'd imagine Lorewise Kul Tiras alone is the size of the entire game world combined, as the entire planet is supposed to be pretty big and the reason in game scale is so small is because of limitations of the game. It also explains why some continents are huge and others are tiny, they just create content while the actual size is mostly irrelevant except for the map, which I suggest they should switch to a chronicle style map, since it would be more accurate and not really change much.

I couldn't agree more with you on that one!

[Lahis]

Regarding Kul Tiras and Zandalar though, I still think it's more a question of scale: lorewise they're much smaller than what appears on the game's map? Or more correctly, EK and Kalimdor are much more vast and expanded as what we have in game? I don't know if this was retconned or not, but to me, lorewise KT and Zandalar are still much smaller than what we have on the world map.



Using this as a reference!

So yeah, it's pretty much a question of in-game scale too, Zandalar being a perfect example of that.

Every continent is the wrong size in game. You simply can't make game world that big.

[therumblings]

That's a good enough point—I do think that the aesthetic at least has been going in a more serious direction, especially with the MOTHERLODE!!! dungeon, and I could figure there's room for a Gaia's Lament-style plot where the Goblins do something horrible to the environment. We've seen our little Gobbos can actually get surprisingly disturbing and legitimately villainous in Highmountain, and that could become a trend going forward. The Blackfuse Company was also played pretty much 100% seriously, and Blackfuse himself acted pretty level by Goblin standards. I'd say a bit of silliness is necessary, of course, since it's still Goblins, but there's plenty of room for Goblins to be serious and possibly even quite depraved.

I think for Goblins, their depravity and greed are major traits you could play up with a serious antagonist—we've seen the lengths they're willing to go to, and I wouldn't put it beyond them to resume mining Azeroth's blood like they did back in the day—if they went too deep, it could cause some serious harm. This does give us a pretty immediate hook into Goblinland.

I don't know if I'd want a whole expansion, but I'm all for a whole Goblin zone—maybe a dedicated patch, or even full story arc.

Maybe we'll even get some mecha goblins lol. Or maybe not. I think Blizzard wants the gnomes to mainly have the mecha cyberpunk theme going for them since they used to all be mechagnomes. And honestly I find the concept of mechagnomes badass but in game it just didn't play out that well imo. Goblins could definitely get a grittier side of WoW lore most people wouldn't expect since they are mostly just green gnome comedy relief right now.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Every continent is the wrong size in game. You simply can't make game world that big.

Exactly, that was my point. But even though the global scale was off, it could still be coherent from one zone to another, which it isn't anymore as smaller zones became more detailed and bigger landmasses IG (and I think it's a good thing, I'm just thrown off by our current world map haha)

[AOL Instant Messenger]

4-5 aesthetics is typical for an expansion. Everything being a variation of Nerubian Kingdom would be too much too.

As I said before, I've envisioned a pretty good map for one before—it essentially would consist of a Scourge- or Old God-heavy Naz'Anak-esque zone (especially now that we know how deep the Forge of Souls stretches), the outskirts of a sub-Ulduar complex that would be revealed to be Uldorus (possibly the same location as the former depending on the scale of it, since Naz'Anak looks exactly like what I'd expect the outskirts of the World-Soul containment facility to look like), a sprawling Nerubian city resembling what Azjol-Nerub should've been, a Drustvar-esque dark forest around the roots of Vordrassil where the Nightmare started and blends into reality (making the zone go increasingly corrupted and surreal as you got closer, looking more and more like the Nightmare in Legion), a massive Troll catacomb or city stretching beneath Zul'Drak (finally leading us to the end of the Snake tail and bringing back another cut element from WotLK, which was the Zul'Drak raid that was cut just like Naz'Anak was) and possibly a more pristine and colorful forest fed by currents seeping from Lake Winterspring and which pours water into the lower zones. One thing I always also pictured that would be interesting is that the zones are on different vertical levels, with a pristine forest zone at the top and Naz'Anak or Azjol-Nerub at the lowest altitude.

The Nerubians would be the primary colonies, but there could also be a Troll presence, a Nightmare presence, a Scourge presence, a Titan presence etc. and a variety of pretty and exotic-yet-grounded zones.

[therumblings]

An Undermine expansion with Tinkers would be really nice if they tried to play the Tinkers and Goblins really seriously and not so much comedy side relief.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

So yeah, it's pretty much a question of in-game scale too, Zandalar being a perfect example of that.

Fair enough—I did misremember the scale of Kul Tiras on the Chronicles map (although I did recall it was significantly smaller than it is in-game) so I thought it was still more significantly upped. Nevertheless, it still shows that you can do jsut about anything with a zone that appeared to be small and fully-understood.

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An Undermine expansion with Tinkers would be really nice if they tried to play the Tinkers and Goblins really seriously and not so much comedy side relief.

That's what I'm thinking—Gaia's Lament-esque, heavily play up the industrial and depraved side of Goblins and their greed, etc. I'd prefer a Nerubian one for a full expansion, though.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Fair enough—I did misremember the scale of Kul Tiras on the Chronicles map (although I did recall it was significantly smaller than it is in-game) so I thought it was still more significantly upped. Nevertheless, it still shows that you can do jsut about anything with a zone that appeared to be small and fully-understood.

Pretty much!

[therumblings]

Fair enough—I did misremember the scale of Kul Tiras on the Chronicles map (although I did recall it was significantly smaller than it is in-game) so I thought it was still more significantly upped. Nevertheless, it still shows that you can do jsut about anything with a zone that appeared to be small and fully-understood.

Kul Tiras is honestly one of the best continents in game, what was thought to be just a boring seafaring human island got turned into 4 zones with deep interesting lore, it'd be pretty great if they did that for something like Kezan or Tel'Abim for example.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Maybe we'll even get some mecha goblins lol. Or maybe not. I think Blizzard wants the gnomes to mainly have the mecha cyberpunk theme going for them since they used to all be mechagnomes. And honestly I find the concept of mechagnomes badass but in game it just didn't play out that well imo. Goblins could definitely get a grittier side of WoW lore most people wouldn't expect since they are mostly just green gnome comedy relief right now.

I'd say I prefer Goblins as the industrial side than the mechanical side, for sure—I think they're a more down-to-earth kind of industry, though I think the bulk of that credit really goes more to the Dark Iron, who are the most truly industrial race, I think, alongside the Mag'har. The Goblins are plenty capable of carrying their own themes, I'm sure, going off of the MOTHERLODE!!! alone.

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Kul Tiras is honestly one of the best continents in game, what was thought to be just a boring seafaring human island got turned into 4 zones with deep interesting lore, it'd be pretty great if they did that for something like Kezan or Tel'Abim for example.

I admit this is somewhat selling me on the idea, though I still remain far more of a Nerubian guy–perhaps with the Undermine and its surrounding area only being one zone, or the area around the Undermine mostly being the zone we're trying to dig into for a final patch mini-continent like Argus (or a .2 patch, if we'll take the Nazjatar approach—Nazjatar was too small for me, though). The surface, conversely, could bring us to neighboring islands or a tropical environment we only saw in Zuldazar and the Lost Isles and not really anywhere else. Then again, the recent volcanic explosion would still make it pretty difficult to make anything on the surface of Kezan, so the underground and neighboring islands may be a necessity.