Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Zankai27]

Not to stir the pot, but we should seriously have an honest conversation about how Blizzard implements new classes. The fact that Blizzard has stayed strictly within WC3 boundaries for class implementation is something that should be noted. In addition, the lack of a Necromancer or Dark Ranger class in Shadowlands should also be taken into consideration. Those two class options were layups, with Sylvanas being focused on heavily (and the Forsaken getting focused on in 9.2.5) and they didn't happen. Frankly I don't believe that we have many class options. I firmly believe that Blizzard has 1 or 2 classes left, and that's it. If there's no class released in 10.0 (which is highly possible), that is 3 new classes in 20 years of the game's existence. That is a VERY low number considering other MMOs.

Nah I'm not really about to have a conversation like that with you. Our understandings of the game's development and its future are utterly incompatible, and my outlook has always been that if an idea is unique enough, and has enough flavor, it can work. If nothing else, it's an interesting thought experiment, and what the hell are my thoughts going to do besides "influence people's ideas" or "nothing".

You really want to have *another* conversation where you tell people that only your understanding of class development, and strict adherence to an ancient RTS, (whose story by the way is being officially wrapped-up as of this expansion) is the only way forward, despite the numerous changes the team has undergone in recent years? The old guard is gone.

All the while, you pop into class ideas that don't adhere to your personal viewpoints and attempt to bury them? Why would people want to sit through all that one more time?

But yeah sure, why discuss anything else? Let's just accept the reality that it's only Tinkers or Dragons, and never think about anything else. Amazing. Really makes for an interesting discussion.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

That is what I am saying though. We already have new Lordaeron, Silver Hand, and Scarlet shields that AREN'T for Lordaeron or the Silver Hand, or the Scarlet forces; and as you yourself point out, it's just one iteration of a generic shield. "Why a Lordaeron shield for the 9.2 shield?" Because it's the boss fight for Mal'ganis, a character whose history is firmly rooted in the fall or Lordaeron. They already made a Lordaeron asset not for Lordaeron in this expansion, so why assume another one with even more reason to exist is for some extra purpose?

Like you have to see the inconsistency here, right? You think it's not strange that a Lordaeron shield randomly drops on an isolated island full of ogres that has nothing at all to do with Lordaeron--but that the simplest explanation for a Lordaeron shield dropping off a major lore character boss connected to Lordaeron is it being a hint for the next expansion?

The simplest explanation is definitely just that they named a mal'ganis item after Lordaeron, people complained that it was visually totally unrelated, and they changed it.

I should also point out that


the 9.2 shield isn't going to be used for anything. Blizzard explicitly called it an "exclusive appearance" in the blogpost about the updates to is. It is purely an asset for that item in Sepulcher.

Those are all fair points, and I do understand that what I said is a little odd in how I phrased it, as well as that my own point is a little shaky—most of what I said is admittedly superfluities, and I did already point out, as you said, that it did of course make sense that a Lordaeron-related shield dropped from Mal'Ganis—the only thing that has me confused is why the shield is a unique model that didn't appear elsewhere. What I was saying is it doesn't make sense for it to be made in the first place (as I presume it wasn't actually made for the model, given that the model probably would've taken far longer to make than the period between the complaints and the update) because there seems to be nowhere that it would be used—the context of the original creation of the model confuses me.

I definitely think that the Lordaeron shields for Exile's Reach were just a generic shield model—conversely, for this instance, unless they were further experimenting with generic shields or it was meant for a Forsaken thing, I do think it seems odd they simply had a pre-rendered and pre-textured Lordaeron shield model just hanging around somewhere and I can't see much in the way of its use. I'm simply applying Occam's Razor and there's surely a few different reasons it could exist, but this and other hints about Lordaeron make me inclined to at least lean that way.

While they do call it an exclusive appearance, as aforementioned, I still do have to wonder precisely why it was seemingly preexistent, and that's what makes that seem dubious. If the claim is actually true, this could also be a recolor, which would take significantly less time than an entirely new texture or mesh, which I could imagine they could make in the period of time they had.

[Nightshade711]

Not to stir the pot, but we should seriously have an honest conversation about how Blizzard implements new classes. The fact that Blizzard has stayed strictly within WC3 boundaries for class implementation is something that should be noted. In addition, the lack of a Necromancer or Dark Ranger class in Shadowlands should also be taken into consideration. Those two class options were layups, with Sylvanas being focused on heavily (and the Forsaken getting focused on in 9.2.5) and they didn't happen. Frankly I don't believe that we have many class options. I firmly believe that Blizzard has 1 or 2 classes left, and that's it. If there's no class released in 10.0 (which is highly possible), that is 3 new classes in 20 years of the game's existence. That is a VERY low number considering other MMOs.

Dark rangers weren’t added because they are just hunters, especially with Sylvanas’ bow and quiver.
(Just like Mountain Kings & Troll berserkers etc are warriors, wardens are rogues, etc)

Necromancers aren’t even a hero in WC3. DKs are though.

[Zankai27]

You could sort of argue that a lich is a necromancer, but we could never get a lich class. A necromancer could much more easily be a class than a Dark Ranger, however.

They're both highly possible with the right creativity. I've got a Dark Ranger concept in the works I'm super happy to share with people once it's finished.

The most important aspect is visibility, and the right concept will do that

Necromancer could also easily pull in Lich elements and even a transformation; definitely get that angle

[AOL Instant Messenger]

You could sort of argue that a lich is a necromancer, but we could never get a lich class. A necromancer could much more easily be a class than a Dark Ranger, however.

Despite the fact that I just got done arguing about why I don't think Necromancers could ever happen, I still do have a fantasy of playing as a Lich. It probably could be accomplished with an Undead Mage, but without Undead summons it just wouldn't be the same. I suppose it could be a glyph, though.

Still, nevertheless, it would be nice.

[Nightshade711]

You could sort of argue that a lich is a necromancer, but we could never get a lich class. A necromancer could much more easily be a class than a Dark Ranger, however.

Probably, but most of the lich’s abilities are used by either frost mages or frost DKs if I remember correctly and the lich doesn’t actually raise the dead.

I’d be down for undead skins for demo lock/warlock pets though. Could work like the green fire quest

[AOL Instant Messenger]

They're both highly possible with the right creativity. I've got a Dark Ranger concept in the works I'm super happy to share with people once it's finished.

The most important aspect is visibility, and the right concept will do that

Necromancer could also easily pull in Lich elements and even a transformation; definitely get that angle

I could see one idea – again, I just got done arguing with someone about why it won't happen, so this is a bit awkward of me – but I did think one way they could possibly make it unique from other classes is to center everything around a Lich transformation. The primary reason I suggest this is because I don't see anything creative that could be done with the pets that hasn't been done already—Warlocks already do swarms, Death Knights already focus on buffing an increasingly-powerful pet, and Hunters already use them as frontline combatants while they stay behind, so there's not very much that could be done here. As such, it would probably be expedient to focus on the Lich element instead of the Necromancy element.

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Probably, but most of the lich’s abilities are used by either frost mages or frost DKs if I remember correctly

Could make for a fun subclass for Frost Mages—a cosmetic transformation if they're feeling particularly ballsy, and a simple replacement of the Water Elemental with an Undead companion if they're not. I think you can get pretty much the same experience as a Lonely Winter Undead Frost Mage with the Maldraxxus set, but a proper Lich transformation would really complete it to a degree we haven't seen yet.

I could also see it being a thing for Frost Death Knights, since the Frost DK trainer is actually shown using two swords like a proper Frost DK in Legion. It could be interesting to add a very long questline or something for a cosmetic Lich transformation for either Death Knights or Frost Mages, though the latter makes far more sense lorewise.

[Nightshade711]

I could see one idea – again, I just got done arguing with someone about why it won't happen, so this is a bit awkward of me – but I did think one way they could possibly make it unique from other classes is to center everything around a Lich transformation. The primary reason I suggest this is because I don't see anything creative that could be done with the pets that hasn't been done already—Warlocks already do swarms, Death Knights already focus on buffing an increasingly-powerful pet, and Hunters already use them as frontline combatants while they stay behind, so there's not very much that could be done here. As such, it would probably be expedient to focus on the Lich element instead of the Necromancy element.

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Could make for a fun subclass for Frost Mages—a cosmetic transformation if they're feeling particularly ballsy, and a simple replacement of the Water Elemental with an Undead companion if they're not. I think you can get pretty much the same experience as a Lonely Winter Undead Frost Mage with the Maldraxxus set, but a proper Lich transformation would really complete it to a degree we haven't seen yet.

I could also see it being a thing for Frost Death Knights, since the Frost DK trainer is actually shown using two swords like a proper Frost DK in Legion. It could be interesting to add a very long questline or something for a cosmetic Lich transformation for either Death Knights or Frost Mages, though the latter makes far more sense lorewise.

Do still wish that the skeleton transformation for the Maldraxxus ability was a proper Lich and not a Kul Tiran reskin.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Perhaps it's been said somewhere before, but with Salandria growing up and being a part of the 9.2.5 Ghostlands content, does anyone think it's a bit suspect to suddenly include her with her future ties to dragons potentially?

With her plans to own a dragon and the dragons stopping her at the caverns of time, maybe the "things she might do or fail to do" might play a part in the next xpack?

Wait, MY BABY IS GROWN UP!? Stop everything about 10.0 this is the most important news of my entire life.

[Teriz]

I don't disagree that this should be noted, but we also have to note how much of an emphasis Blizz has put on Shadowlands being the "last" chapter of Warcraft 3. Whether true or not, they obviously as a team are trying to sell that narrative. That IMO speaks more to trying to create something new & put the past behind them than it does to digging back into the Warcraft 3 well, even if Tinker feels like the most logical option at this point.

Well I'd like to point out that the Tinker that was previewed in Island Expeditions actually came from HotS and not WC3, and Sylvanas' ability set from 9.1 were almost entirely from HotS, so there could be some truth to what you're saying here. The problem is that HotS really isn't much different from WC3 in terms of the heroes offered. The only heroes that were a true departure from the original WC3 heroes were the dragons (Alexstraza, Chromie, and Deathwing).

I agree that we don't have that many options right now, but if 10.0 is supposed to be an actual step away from the old stories and into new stories/concepts, it's likely the team will want to do something new rather than bringing in something from the old games. Because of that, I'd argue there are more than just 1-2 new options, we just don't know them yet.

Well we will see. TBH, you could really fit any RPG archetype into the existing classes with little issue. The only ones that really stick out are the HotS draconic heroes and Gazlowe HotS.

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Probably, but most of the lich’s abilities are used by either frost mages or frost DKs if I remember correctly and the lich doesn’t actually raise the dead.

Are you talking about Deathborne?

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=324220/deathborne

I could see that becoming a talent next expansion.

[Centerblock]

I swear Awakenings is becoming the next Azshara login screen

[TheLostCodex]

the 9.2 shield isn't going to be used for anything. Blizzard explicitly called it an "exclusive appearance" in the blogpost about the updates to is. It is purely an asset for that item in Sepulcher.

Few things here:

1) As others have said, there were already existing Lordaeron shield assets in the game. They were never tied to an existing item ID (as in appeared on the beta as an item then vanished) and although the whole whole series was listed as “new player experience” assets, the Lordaeron/Scarlet crest weren’t likely created for use on said isle (same as the glaives - demon hunters wouldn’t start on the isle but why make them?)

2) There wasn’t a huge stink about the Shields off Mal’ganis. Sure, some theorized it would have a unique model but like most WoW weapons, the name often doesn’t match the appearance - the warglaive off Kin’tessa shouldn’t look like a First Ones weapon if it’s from Outland. So I’m seriously doubting that it was due to player outrage, especially when the dev blog said there was a problem with the item (hence why removed)

3) If this was just a matter of changing the model, there was a Lordaeron shield unused from the New player experience (again, the theme of the island was faction themed and there was a simple alliance shield they could’ve added). But they didn’t - they used a 100% new asset for this change out nowhere. Now if they truly did create a new asset just for this, why make it so similar to the NPE shields? Why not just use them? Or better yet, if it was custom for Mal’ganis, why not make it actually look ruined as the name implies - corrupted and Nathrezim touched.

4) There's no matching icon. Every weapon & armor is given a matching icon, yet this one uses the Crest of Lordaeron Wrath icon. It’s worth noting that icons are often thematically named and very well could’ve been left out intentionally.

My theory: the shield is part of a greater Lordaeron kit for 10.0, one with a little more quality and Han the starting player basic models. This was a good opportunity to use the model without giving raiders a starting player item (which didn’t have multiple hints FTR). But to ensure the name was hidden, they removed the icon and used a different icon.

It is very bizarre that of all the weapon or armor names that are inappropriately named (model=\=the name), this shield had no public outcry or major reason to change. I think it was a Dev making use a of cool new asset while they fixed a problem, but also we’re cautious to withhold all the giveaways and simply brand it as “an exclusive appearance”.

I’m not the only one who thinks this - many data miners and artists have found it to be quite peculiar, but it could be just nothing.

At this rate, more evidence points to 10.0

[Hitei]

...
2) There wasn’t a huge stink about the Shields off Mal’ganis. Sure, some theorized it would have a unique model but like most WoW weapons, the name often doesn’t match the appearance - the warglaive off Kin’tessa shouldn’t look like a First Ones weapon if it’s from Outland. So I’m seriously doubting that it was due to player outrage, especially when the dev blog said there was a problem with the item (hence why removed)
...
It is very bizarre that of all the weapon or armor names that are inappropriately named (model=\=the name), this shield had no public outcry or major reason to change. I think it was a Dev making use a of cool new asset while they fixed a problem, but also we’re cautious to withhold all the giveaways and simply brand it as “an exclusive appearance”.

I’m not the only one who thinks this - many data miners and artists have found it to be quite peculiar, but it could be just nothing.

At this rate, more evidence points to 10.0

This is based on the assumption that Blizzard wouldn't go out of the way for a very minor outcry, but we've seen dozens of changes for exactly that in recent patches. There was no real public outcry or major reason to add Nightborne glowing hands, it was just a point a handful of people raised and they added it. There was a thread about new player experiences that had a side point about legendary acquisition from older raids being annoying, so they added in a vendor for that. People raised a little fuss about other allied races when they started giving stuff to Void Elves and Nightborne, so they also threw in customization for some of the others.

It's been a focus in the last two patches to see minor problems and implement changes for them, and in this case, they had to pull the item for whatever bug reason, and figured they might as well also change the model.

1) As others have said, there were already existing Lordaeron shield assets in the game. They were never tied to an existing item ID (as in appeared on the beta as an item then vanished) and although the whole whole series was listed as “new player experience” assets, the Lordaeron/Scarlet crest weren’t likely created for use on said isle (same as the glaives - demon hunters wouldn’t start on the isle but why make them?)

Because originally they might have? They're all part of a set of very simplified weapon visuals appropriate for new players, and wanted to cover their basis, so they included a glaive in case Demon Hunters ended up being able to use the NPE, and variations on the shields so there were other class and faction options, etc.

This "it was all planned for Lordaeron in 10.0" kinda completely falls apart when you also consider the other non-Lordaeron assets in that NPE model push. If your argument here is that the DH glaive is evidence the shields weren't intended to be part of Exile's Reach, the next obvious question you have to ask is: What is that glaive for at all then? It's not a "Lordaeron" quest reward asset. It's very elfish. They could have gone very Lordaeron and even put the symbol engraved in there, instead it's generic'd and very "level 1". What is the Horde shield for? It's orcish and has nothing to do with Lordaeron.

What the weapon set actually screams (if anything) is full revamp. Not a region specific one. But it's more likely they sat down, wanted to do high res weapons for the NPE, made a bunch, and someone figured since they had a new model for "simple kite shield" instead of just other color variations (like they do for all armor and weapons so that they have a backlog if they want them anywhere else) they might as well throw some interesting sigils and callbacks in there, and included Alliance, Horde, Scarlet Crusade, Lordaeron and Silverhand--before you think "I doubt they'd put that much effort into alternate skins" let me point out to you that the variation in the shields is not unique to the shields:



Many of the weapons have "recolors" that instead are partial reskins that use different emblems and designs. It's likely the shields are just that.

3) If this was just a matter of changing the model, there was a Lordaeron shield unused from the New player experience (again, the theme of the island was faction themed and there was a simple alliance shield they could’ve added). But they didn’t - they used a 100% new asset for this change out nowhere. Now if they truly did create a new asset just for this, why make it so similar to the NPE shields? Why not just use them? Or better yet, if it was custom for Mal’ganis, why not make it actually look ruined as the name implies - corrupted and Nathrezim touched.

It's not about being similar to the NPE shield, my guy. It's quite literally the shield from the crest of Lordaeron:

I agree with you. They didn't want to just hand raiders a 1:1 starting item they had sitting around unusued. So instead they made the literal crest

4) There's no matching icon. Every weapon & armor is given a matching icon, yet this one uses the Crest of Lordaeron Wrath icon. It’s worth noting that icons are often thematically named and very well could’ve been left out intentionally.

Not really sure what you're arguing here. The original version's icon was already mismatched (for a First Ones shield), it's not like they intentionally hid it because of some spoiler, it would have just been a First Ones shield.

[AngerFork]

Well I'd like to point out that the Tinker that was previewed in Island Expeditions actually came from HotS and not WC3, and Sylvanas' ability set from 9.1 were almost entirely from HotS, so there could be some truth to what you're saying here. The problem is that HotS really isn't much different from WC3 in terms of the heroes offered. The only heroes that were a true departure from the original WC3 heroes were the dragons (Alexstraza, Chromie, and Deathwing).

It did, but I'm not as concerned with ability set so much as overall class fantasy/design here. Most of the classes we've had so far have been a departure from their initial setup. DKs for instance are nowhere near what we saw of them in the RTS games, but they still fit well. By the same token, if Blizz does opt to bring in Tinkers I'm sure the Island Expedition teams & what we saw in HotS will be used as inspiration, but that doesn't change what I'm saying. More what I'm saying is that if Blizz is really trying to turn the page on the old RTS games, the presence of Tinkers in WC3 could be a hindrance if for no other reason than sheer stubbornness about turning the page. Plus by turning the page, more classes are opened up. Bards, Dragonsworn, Necromancer...really, anything is on the table at that point.

Well we will see. TBH, you could really fit any RPG archetype into the existing classes with little issue. The only ones that really stick out are the HotS draconic heroes and Gazlowe HotS.

Many of them you could fit in to be sure, but there's a few that really wouldn't fit quite as well. Bards for instance don't really fit into any of current classes without a strong amount of shoehorning. Samurai wouldn't really cleanly fit in with Rogues or Warriors, it would take some shuffling to properly fit in either class. Dancers have been used in a variety of RPGs, but don't really neatly fit into any currently playable class. A Gunslinger also doesn't really fit in with any current class...maybe Hunter, but that's more of a single weapon ranged class as opposed to two six shooters. Draconic classes don't really fit in either, no current class really seems to derive from the aspects.

[Pheraz]

Just had another idea ..

If they go for "a lordaeron xpac" they could also create a conflict between the retaken lordaeron humans and stormwind and we would end up again with a "marvel civil war" expansion

[Makorus]

Guys, you are overanalyzing it.

The item the Lords of Dread drop is called "Ruined Crest of Lordaeron". It's a reference to the item that Malganis dropped in Culling in Wrath, the "Royal Crest of Lordaeron", the Lordaeron crest shield as an actual shield.

But instead of actually making the item look like an HD version of the item it references, it looks like a generic raid shield. People pointed that out and Blizzard must have realized it's stupid.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Guys, you are overanalyzing it.

The item the Lords of Dread drop is called "Ruined Crest of Lordaeron". It's a reference to the item that Malganis dropped in Culling in Wrath, the "Royal Crest of Lordaeron", the Lordaeron crest shield as an actual shield.

But instead of actually making the item look like an HD version of the item it references, it looks like a generic raid shield. People pointed that out and Blizzard must have realized it's stupid.

The reason we're talking about is that they produced a new asset for it overnight—we're unsure if they could've actually made that asset that quickly, so we're wondering if they had it on hand.

[Marlamin]

I personally resent how "anti-spoiler" the game has become. They're need to only show off the game in a completely finished form takes all the fun out of datamining & feels extremely corporate.

I think datamining can exist perfectly fine but also not being used to spoil major plot points, it just requires Blizzard to make less mistakes which is how most spoilers happen these days.

Poor Marlamin, I hope things pick up for them soon.

What happened to the parrot friend????

Still here! As long as this thread doesn't turn into yet another place filled with toxicity towards singular devs/people I'll stick around, just without the usual datamining.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I think datamining can exist perfectly fine but also not being used to spoil major plot points, it just requires Blizzard to make less mistakes which is how most spoilers happen these days.





Still here! As long as this thread doesn't turn into yet another place filled with toxicity towards singular devs/people I'll stick around, just without the usual datamining.

I have to admit I'm not wholly aware about your overall motives for quitting datamining—I've not read the thread thoroughly enough, but I just do want to be sure I'm getting the right understanding of what your objections are.

It seems to be that it's the two things you mentioned here—that is the datamining of major story points and the subsequent harassment of writers that people decide to inexplicably do because they don't like a story, but I can't really find the whole context. In case I'm missing anything, could you summarize?

I should emphasize I'm not trying to be nosy or get any kind of talk, I'm just curious and feel a little out-of-the-loop.

[Chickat]

I think he's just playing along and slightly screwing with us.

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Here's the quote. He's just screwing around.

Yeah, I dont actually think he does either, im just playing along, but you never know.