Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[AOL Instant Messenger]

"RUDOLF!Santa called, asked you to stop sniffing that cocaine, each time you doing it you start talking out of your's ass about some kind priority"
FTFY, just to show you, why people dislike fanatics like you.

I really don't think any of us can be 100% sure of any class being a priority or not since we only have some pretty vague and mostly-outdated clues about Blizzard's class priorities. We can debate, but if two people are arguing and both are insisting that what they want is 100% the case, one person will end up making an ass of themselves when they are proven wrong and the other will dig deeper into conceit.

[scrappybristol]

I 100% do not want anything big or cosmic threatening Azeroth for the next expansion.

Like bruh let us breathe.

Azeroth needs a lot of TLC before the next big bad shows up

[Teriz]

/snip.

The issue you're running into with that concept isn't overlap with DK, but overlap with Mages. Frost Mages currently have an ability called Deathborne that transforms them into a Lich. Also some of the concepts you're talking about like Hypothermia and stacking frost-based damage is already present within Frost Mages.

I am of the view that instead of clogging up the necromancer thematic, we leave it alone and allow DKs, Warlocks, and Mages to expand freely without another class clogging up their design space.

[Varx]

"RUDOLF!Santa called, asked you to stop sniffing that cocaine, each time you doing it you start talking out of your's ass about some kind priority"
FTFY, just to show you, why people dislike fanatics like you.

Again no Necro or DR in SL means no Necro or DR for 10.0 with a shadow of a doubt.

10.0 needs to have a new class.

Necros and DR were the only real contenders. There is absolutely no other class left that has the creative possibility and lack of representation that tinkers have.

Add it up together and any one can see that tinkers are next, despite personal preferences.

It's really plain and simple.

Fyi, I don't give a fly fuck if people don't like me for speaking the TRUTH. It's hilarious seeing all the rage anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

No one cares about your guys personal desires. It is the second part where you guys state it as like it is an obvious thing that makes you obnoxious and narcissist.

I already made it plain that it is not a personal desire as I have no Intention of maining a tinker. Im just reading what's plain as day.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The issue you're running into with that concept isn't overlap with DK, but overlap with Mages. Frost Mages currently have an ability called Deathborne that transforms them into a Lich. Also some of the concepts you're talking about like Hypothermia and stacking frost-based damage is already present within Frost Mages.

I am of the view that instead of clogging up the necromancer thematic, we leave it alone and allow DKs, Warlocks, and Mages to expand freely without another class clogging up their design space.

Fair enough. I haven't been playing lately, so I admit that I'm not sure how much other classes are taking up these other ideas—I would say that Deathborne isn't a problem, though, since it's not really about Lichdom and it's more of a brief upgrade.

I suppose an alternative is to make the Lich transformation act differently, being more of a perpetual state akin to a Druid form, which could also work for a single specialization, though it would also make the non-Tanking summoning specialization not work well.

I would say there could be a way to make the Lich's frost abilities work could be that it would take a bit more from Kel'Thuzad's fight in the few ways it doesn't overlap much. I would say that Frost Mages are still lacking in gradual DoTs relative to some others, or they're at least mostly delivered by otherwise-direct spells. This could work out if it were mostly traditional DoTs like other classes use. if it can't stack, I suppose one way the DoTs could work is that it could focus on increasing people's vulnerability or their damage taken by frost spells in general by adding a rotation around maximizing that—you could do some fun things with that. I think there may be room for it and the primary sticking point for me is the expansion problem and not the mechanics so much.

I remain very solidly on the fence about the concept, of course, and doubt it's likely, but I do figure it could be fair to screw around with ways in which it wouldn't be invasive on preexisting classes just to see if it's possible.

[Ersula]

It would honestly be lame if only Naaru-raised Forsaken can be paladins, the idea that the old ones could do it but it really hurts them is cool. It means they suffer but are still devout in their faith.

This actually brings up a good point: are we even sure they WILL make new Forsaken? Sylvanas did it post-Wrath to support the Jailer... why would Calia do it?

I can see her offering the choice to the people that Sylvanas killed in Before the Storm, but outside why would she be rezzing random corpses? Her character isn’t very developed yet but she doesn’t seem crazy or manipulative.

From the book we now know Sylvanas wasn't working for the Jailer yet during Stormheim. The Jailer first came to her in Edge of Night, but she didn't actually join him until Azeroth got stabbed. She legitimately wanted a way to make more forsaken when she used the lanturn. I'm a little sad that now the Valkyr have no association with the Forsaken because visually they are really iconic.

It seems like Saa'ra was their long-term plan for more forsaken: It's not directly explained but it seems Saa'ra's unique backstory of being a fully-corrupted naaru that has been purified is the reason Calia became undead. So anybody Saa'ra resurrects becomes forsaken.

I was hoping those undead Scarlet Crusaders Mal'ganis made could have been a forsaken allied race & that they could be paladins. That would make sense, but since then we now have 3 different Scarlet factions. The Scarlet Brotherhood in Stormwind, the reformed scarlets in new Hearthglen from the Priest order hall & the undead Scarlets in Tyr's Hand. You can say this recent Scarlet Crusade story beats means a precursor to Scarlet content, but this is how many times they've tried to reintroduce them into the plot & immediately abandoned them.

[huth]

I do agree that it would be rather insufficient to waste a class on only two races—I think there's room for Dwarves, Dark Iron, Mechagnomes, Mag'har and maybe Draenei, but they'd have to do really good to synthesize the Draenei into the concept.

Draenei tech may be different in design, but they built an entire spaceship from scratch. They're hardly lacking in competence. It's a difference in approach, not outcome.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Draenei tech may be different in design, but they built an entire spaceship from scratch. They're hardly lacking in competence. It's a difference in approach, not outcome.

I definitely don't deny that—I think they're probably canonically one of the brightest races, going off the comments about pre-Legion Argus, but my concern is that they may have trouble synthesizing their Science Fantasy magical artifice with the rockets and gunpowder of the Goblins and Gnomes. There would need to be huge aesthetic differences for the concept to work.

That, and it does seem like most Draenei Artificers are Paladins already.

[huth]

I definitely don't deny that—I think they're probably canonically one of the brightest races, going off the comments about pre-Legion Argus, but my concern is that they may have trouble synthesizing their Science Fantasy magical artifice with the rockets and gunpowder of the Goblins and Gnomes. There would need to be huge aesthetic differences for the concept to work.

That, and it does seem like most Draenei Artificers are Paladins already.

So would nearly all of the others you mentioned. The only ones remotely similar are the two Dwarf clans.

[Ersula]

Gnomes invented the secrets of the Tinker, they have that knowledge. Ever seen a dwarf tinker? Thought so. Gnomes are the only ones who can share that knowledge, like pandas with the monk class.

I think a Tinker class would be most conservatively Gnome & Goblin, but more realistically also include science oriented races like Forsaken & Dwarves. Their races are very explicitly steampunk. Also Draenei & Blood elves probably. They're big goggle-wearing folk.

I've reached a point where I want a Artificer-esque Bard/Tinker fusion class that everyone can be. Except Night elves. F*ck Night elves.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

So would nearly all of the others you mentioned. The only ones remotely similar are the two Dwarf clans.

Fair enough. Still, all of them could generally be united under a tendency towards fire damage, artillery, fairly-similar metal-based robots etc. and they seem to generally be compatible. I can't really picture a Draenei using, say, a rocket barrage—their technology is generally more ethereal and jewelcrafting-based than the grittier, physical and artillery-focused technology shared between Gnomes, Goblins, Dwarves and Mag'har.

[Zankai27]

Well the thing is that the previous expansion classes (DKs, Monks, and Demon Hunters) stuck pretty closely to their WC3 roots. Sure concepts were expanded upon, but in general, it's very easy to see the roots of each expansion class.

Death Knights had the same armor, swords, mounts, etc of their WC3 counterparts. The only thing that was really expanded on were the races available.

Monks were still heavily based on Pandaren Brewmasters, with Pandaren iconography on their abilities, armor that resembled Chen Stormstout, and each spec having unique brews to concoct.

Demon Hunters were elves only, getting the tattoos, blindfolds, wings, and even horns of their archetypal lore character/hero Illidan.

Tinkers are going to follow a similar line. You're going to get the claw pack. You're going to get the abilities from WC3 and HotS. You're going to get the wild stuff from Goblin and Gnome technology. The onus is on Blizzard to either spread the concept out, or limit the concept to its core. I feel that it can go either way. Even limiting it to Goblin and Gnome tech gives you a pretty robust 3 spec hybrid class.

Nope, not doing this again. I honestly hope we don't get any of that and Tinkers are completely bonkers different. I even loved the Tinker island expedition team, but now I don't even want that. I just want something so utterly different you can't even fanwank it into fitting into Warcraft 3.

No *wonder* people on this site hate Tinkers at this point.

"Hey <unrelated people., here's an idea for how it could be interesting. There's lots of ideas they could use, especially if they got creative."

"Well actually man, it can't work that way, it can only work the way I 100% know it will. Any other discussion is banned by the Teriz police. All ideas have to fit within this bubble or they get talked out of oblivion until they come up again."

Just stop, dude.

[Al Gorefiend]

Draenei tech may be different in design, but they built an entire spaceship from scratch. They're hardly lacking in competence. It's a difference in approach, not outcome.

I get what he's saying in the sense that if they included races other than gnome and goblin, you're so radically changing the design of the class since the draenei tech is more magic than it is tech. Draenei spaceships look to be powered magically via giant crystal conduits (or Draenei just really like big crystal ships) we saw this in Oshu'gun/Genedar.

So they can include Draenei and just go the Priest route where they skimp racial flavor to make the class work, or not include Draenei since it really doesn't fit.

I think the safest best bets would be Gnome/Dwarf/Dark Iron Dwarf on Alliance and Goblin/Vulpera on the Horde (Vulpera don't really fit either, but for the sake of keeping the Horde from screaming favoritism or people who just can't stand Goblin)

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I get what he's saying in the sense that if they included races other than gnome and goblin, you're so radically changing the design of the class since the draenei tech is more magic than it is tech. Draenei spaceships look to be powered magically via giant crystal conduits (or Draenei just really like big crystal ships) we saw this in Oshu'gun/Genedar.

So they can include Draenei and just go the Priest route where they skimp racial flavor to make the class work, or not include Draenei since it really doesn't fit.

I would also argue that I do think that most Draenei Artificers simply seem to be extremely bright (mind the pun) Paladins—in combat, they don't really use their technology directly. We do see some elements of alternatives in the fight with the ghost of the Artificer Exarch in WoD, though, so those could work. Nevertheless, though, I think a Draenei Paladin with Jewelcrafting should work well enough as a Draenei Artificer. I do love the lore for them, though, and I would not oppose it at all.

[Zankai27]

I get what he's saying in the sense that if they included races other than gnome and goblin, you're so radically changing the design of the class since the draenei tech is more magic than it is tech. Draenei spaceships look to be powered magically via giant crystal conduits (or Draenei just really like big crystal ships) we saw this in Oshu'gun/Genedar.

So they can include Draenei and just go the Priest route where they skimp racial flavor to make the class work, or not include Draenei since it really doesn't fit.

I think the safest best bets would be Gnome/Dwarf/Dark Iron Dwarf on Alliance and Goblin/Vulpera on the Horde (Vulpera don't really fit either, but for the sake of keeping the Horde from screaming favoritism or people who just can't stand Goblin)

And we're not throwing Mag'har in there why? Or regular Orcs for that matter. Oh, Forsaken as well, considering the Horde Tinker team in BFA was two Goblins and a Forsaken.

I still utterly disagree we have to be *that* specific about Draenei though.

I would also argue that I do think that most Draenei Artificers simply seem to be extremely bright (mind the pun) Paladins—in combat, they don't really use their technology directly. We do see some elements of alternatives in the fight with the ghost of the Artificer Exarch in WoD, though, so those could work. Nevertheless, though, I think a Draenei Paladin with Jewelcrafting should work well enough as a Draenei Artificer. I do love the lore for them, though, and I would not oppose it at all.

Demolitonist Legoso is literally a Draenei Engineer, by the way. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Legoso

He was even re-used in Wintergrasp and built tanks and shit. Normal tanks.

[Kiria]

Anyone who thinks Blizz will design unique mechs for each race are completely out of their mind, IF the class becomes available it will be Gnome/Gob only, Designing mechs for each and every race aswell as making multiple different designs of mechs for ie stages or different weapon type is far too big of a task.

I honestly dont think Blizz would reasonably create all those new assets for a minor race anyhoo, it's alot of work and they need to make sure the next expansion appeals to everyone not a very loud fanatic minority.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

And we're not throwing Mag'har in there why? Or regular Orcs for that matter

I still utterly disagree we have to be *that* specific about Draenei though.



Demolitonist Legoso is literally a Draenei Engineer, by the way. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Legoso

He was even re-used in Wintergrasp and built tanks and shit. Normal tanks.

I was not aware this was a character. This does open up some avenues for it—I'm still a little suspicious of it, though, since it doesn't really fit the fantasy of the race to me to go around building gritty, realistic machines instead of alien crystal-based technology, and this is only one outlier that exists.

[Zankai27]

I was not aware this was a character. This does open up some avenues for it—I'm still a little suspicious of it, though, since it doesn't really fit the fantasy of the race to me to go around building gritty, realistic machines instead of alien crystal-based technology, and this is only one outlier that exists.

I promise it's really not that deep. No one's going to bat an eye if they have Tinkers. They're smart, they're even space-faring; using guns is pretty natural for them. There's tons of Engineers in the Exodar too. https://tbc.wowhead.com/npc=16726/ockil

One of the Lightforged's first additions to the Alliance is an Engineering trainer. They aren't above using guns and bombs and stuff. I don't like being pointlessly limiting when there's plenty of flavor, and even in-game justification for it. Hell, we could even allow for some racial customization in the machines if we wanted to.

[Teriz]

Nope, not doing this again. I honestly hope we don't get any of that and Tinkers are completely bonkers different. I even loved the Tinker island expedition team, but now I don't even want that. I just want something so utterly different you can't even fanwank it into fitting into Warcraft 3.

Except it isn't a "fanwank".

Again, look at the previous expansion inclusions; Each one got their entire kit from WC3 and the Demon Hunters got additional abilities from HotS. Those formed the foundation of the class.

Now look at the Tinker's abilities from WC3; Pocket Factory, Cluster Rockets, Engineering Upgrade, and Robo Goblin.
Now look at the Tinker's abilities from HotS; Rock-it Turret, Deth Lazor, XPlodium Charge, Grav-O-Bomb 3000, and Robo Goblin.

Those are distinctly Goblin and Gnome-style tech abilities, and simply don't fit every single race. You think a Draenei is going to be using an ability called "Deth Lazor" or dropping Pocket Factories that are pumping out little robotic soldiers? Let's also not forget the claw pack;



There's also the Goblin Alchemist, which is supposedly the base for the Tinker healing spec. Again, it's Goblin centric;



Now there's always a possibility that Blizzard could expand on the concept and make new graphics and animations for other races. However, there's also the very real possibility that you'll see this class limited to Gnomes, Goblins, Mechagnomes, and possibly Vulpera (due to Goblin skeleton).

Why? Because it'd simply be easier to do, and to port over the existing Tinker (and Alchemist) abilities.

Demon Hunters were Elven centric, Monks were Pandaren centric. Tinkers by their nature are Goblin centric. So it stands to reason that the class will be on Goblin terms.

We'll see what happens one way or another.

[Zankai27]

Words

I said I wasn't going to keep bothering with this. Discussion with you isn't a discussion and it goes nowhere. Whatever happens, happens.

Edit: Honestly, it's taking literally all the fun out of speculation having to put up with stuff like this. Even taking the wind out of my own ideas; why bother when the only place to post them is places like this?